Guard Play at UM

[UMFan12]

As we all know, the shortcomings of almost every mid major come with the frontcourt. Guards are generally seen as being easier to recruit both from the portal with a lot of proven D-1 talent, and from high school. Moody was a good get. Taking a shot from D-2 with Brown was unnecessary, as was Oke. In an era of the portal these coaches have failed to adjust.

With a look around the conference, the only team with undoubtedly worse guard play is ISU. Bottom 3 guard play in conference has been UM, WSU, and ISU. The top team in the conference graduated their top two guards and have replaced them with two division one transfers, both of whom will be honored by the conference in some fashion.
Every team, except those three, have a level of star punch from their guards. For two teams that have frontcourt talent to the degree of UM and WSU, they should both be towards the front of the conference.

So, my question: Why? Why take risks in an era of proven talent?

 

[UMFan12]

Further investigation- top 3 guards for every team in the conference(by minutes played):

PPG- RPG- APG

UM-
Moody(14-3-2) SUU transfer
Whitney(10.5-2-2.5) HS
Martin(7-2.5-1.5) JUCO

WSU-
Verplancken(12-1-1) SIU transfer
Cunningham(6.5-2-1.5) HS
Ballard(9.5-2-1) Fresno

ISU-
Mackenzie(13-3-1) Point Loma transfer(non D-1)
Tomley-(13-4-2) Santa Clara transfer
Smellie(6-4-2.5) HS

NAU-
Cone(17.5-4-2.5) Va Tech transfer
Fuller(11-4-1) S.Dak transfer
Lloyd(7-1-2.5) GCU transfer

SAC-
Patterson(9.5-3.5-1) Wofford transfer
Chappell(15.5-3-2) SJSU transfer
Hunt(6-3-3) Oregon State transfer

UI-
Moffitt(16.5-2-5) SPU transfer(non D-1)
Salih(7.5-1.5-1.5) HS
Smith(4.5-2.5-1) SJSU transfer

PSU-
Parker(15-4-6) UM transfer
Saterfield(15-4-1) UTEP transfer
Woods(11-5-1) Elon transfer

UNC-
Knecht(19-7-2) nationally recognized JUCO recruit
Johnson(11.5-2-4) HS
Kountz(16-2-3) Colorado transfer

EWU-
Venters(16-2.5-1) HS
Davis(10-4-3.5) Jacksonville Transfer
Stroud(6-2-1) Fresno St transfer

MSU-
Battle(16-3-1) UW transfer
Brown(9-4-5) CSUN transfer
Patterson(6-1-0.5) HS

Of note:
-Only 2 non D-1/JUCO transfers, both from schools in more prestigious D2 conferences
-PSU building a top 3 backcourt in 2 off seasons completely from D-1 transfers
-MSU utilizing the portal to extend their run of dominance instead of enduring a multi-year rebuild on the back of Adamu-Bishop graduation
-7 players in entire conference as high school recruits, 1 on each of bottom 3 backcourts

The top players in this conference are and will continue to be transfers from D-1 schools. Long overdue for this staff to adjust. Cannot continue to willingly harm depth taking shots on NAIA and D-2 transfers, and both can and should use D-1 transfers to accelerate or prevent re-builds as MSU has shown. Just my thoughts.

 

[maroonandsilver]

As we all know, the shortcomings of almost every mid major come with the frontcourt. Guards are generally seen as being easier to recruit both from the portal with a lot of proven D-1 talent, and from high school. Moody was a good get. Taking a shot from D-2 with Brown was unnecessary, as was Oke. In an era of the portal these coaches have failed to adjust.

With a look around the conference, the only team with undoubtedly worse guard play is ISU. Bottom 3 guard play in conference has been UM, WSU, and ISU. The top team in the conference graduated their top two guards and have replaced them with two division one transfers, both of whom will be honored by the conference in some fashion.
Every team, except those three, have a level of star punch from their guards. For two teams that have frontcourt talent to the degree of UM and WSU, they should both be towards the front of the conference.

So, my question: Why? Why take risks in an era of proven talent?

Maybe Travis is taking the risk because he is falling short in recruiting the "proven talent"

 

[RoseyMustGo]

Further investigation- top 3 guards for every team in the conference(by minutes played):

PPG- RPG- APG

UM-
Moody(14-3-2) SUU transfer
Whitney(10.5-2-2.5) HS
Martin(7-2.5-1.5) JUCO

WSU-
Verplancken(12-1-1) SIU transfer
Cunningham(6.5-2-1.5) HS
Ballard(9.5-2-1) Fresno

ISU-
Mackenzie(13-3-1) Point Loma transfer(non D-1)
Tomley-(13-4-2) Santa Clara transfer
Smellie(6-4-2.5) HS

NAU-
Cone(17.5-4-2.5) Va Tech transfer
Fuller(11-4-1) S.Dak transfer
Lloyd(7-1-2.5) GCU transfer

SAC-
Patterson(9.5-3.5-1) Wofford transfer
Chappell(15.5-3-2) SJSU transfer
Hunt(6-3-3) Oregon State transfer

UI-
Moffitt(16.5-2-5) SPU transfer(non D-1)
Salih(7.5-1.5-1.5) HS
Smith(4.5-2.5-1) SJSU transfer

PSU-
Parker(15-4-6) UM transfer
Saterfield(15-4-1) UTEP transfer
Woods(11-5-1) Elon transfer

UNC-
Knecht(19-7-2) nationally recognized JUCO recruit
Johnson(11.5-2-4) HS
Kountz(16-2-3) Colorado transfer

EWU-
Venters(16-2.5-1) HS
Davis(10-4-3.5) Jacksonville Transfer
Stroud(6-2-1) Fresno St transfer

MSU-
Battle(16-3-1) UW transfer
Brown(9-4-5) CSUN transfer
Patterson(6-1-0.5) HS

Of note:
-Only 2 non D-1/JUCO transfers, both from schools in more prestigious D2 conferences
-PSU building a top 3 backcourt in 2 off seasons completely from D-1 transfers
-MSU utilizing the portal to extend their run of dominance instead of enduring a multi-year rebuild on the back of Adamu-Bishop graduation
-7 players in entire conference as high school recruits, 1 on each of bottom 3 backcourts

The top players in this conference are and will continue to be transfers from D-1 schools. Long overdue for this staff to adjust. Cannot continue to willingly harm depth taking shots on NAIA and D-2 transfers, and both can and should use D-1 transfers to accelerate or prevent re-builds as MSU has shown. Just my thoughts.

Your post is spot-on. Wonder why the Griz offense spends so much time with unproductive passing around the perimeter before casting-up a desperation "3" as the clock winds down??? It is because we don't have guards who have the ability to penetrate and dish, or go to the rim. I too can not figure out why Travis keeps recruiting these move-up players.

 

[UMFan12]

As we all know, the shortcomings of almost every mid major come with the frontcourt. Guards are generally seen as being easier to recruit both from the portal with a lot of proven D-1 talent, and from high school. Moody was a good get. Taking a shot from D-2 with Brown was unnecessary, as was Oke. In an era of the portal these coaches have failed to adjust.

With a look around the conference, the only team with undoubtedly worse guard play is ISU. Bottom 3 guard play in conference has been UM, WSU, and ISU. The top team in the conference graduated their top two guards and have replaced them with two division one transfers, both of whom will be honored by the conference in some fashion.
Every team, except those three, have a level of star punch from their guards. For two teams that have frontcourt talent to the degree of UM and WSU, they should both be towards the front of the conference.

So, my question: Why? Why take risks in an era of proven talent?

Maybe Travis is taking the risk because he is falling short in recruiting the "proven talent"

I’d say the opposite is true. A lot of the top players at UM in recent years have been D-1 transfers. First Rorie and Akoh, then Manuel, and later Gaskin who looked to be next in line before off court issues ended that. Beyond just stars, in the earlier DeCuire years, he used proven D-1 talent to improve our depth. Not sure why he got away from it. Think Dorsey, Manuel, prior to breaking out senior year, , even Samuelsons return year, and now guys like Moody and Thomas. Our best transfers have been from other D-1 schools. Not sure why he’s getting away from what worked. It’s pretty clear the success-fail ratio vastly favors the D-1 transfers.

 

[RoseyMustGo]

Maybe Travis is taking the risk because he is falling short in recruiting the "proven talent"

I’d say the opposite is true. A lot of the top players at UM in recent years have been D-1 transfers. First Rorie and Akoh, then Manuel, and later Gaskin who looked to be next in line before off court issues ended that. Beyond just stars, in the earlier DeCuire years, he used proven D-1 talent to improve our depth. Not sure why he got away from it. Think Dorsey, Manuel, prior to breaking out senior year, , even Samuelsons return year, and now guys like Moody and Thomas. Our best transfers have been from other D-1 schools. Not sure why he’s getting away from what worked. It’s pretty clear the success-fail ratio vastly favors the D-1 transfers.

Did you consider that he has tried to recruit Div. I transfers, but they don't like his style of play, or his terse, old-school style coaching style?

 

[UMFan12]

I’d say the opposite is true. A lot of the top players at UM in recent years have been D-1 transfers. First Rorie and Akoh, then Manuel, and later Gaskin who looked to be next in line before off court issues ended that. Beyond just stars, in the earlier DeCuire years, he used proven D-1 talent to improve our depth. Not sure why he got away from it. Think Dorsey, Manuel, prior to breaking out senior year, , even Samuelsons return year, and now guys like Moody and Thomas. Our best transfers have been from other D-1 schools. Not sure why he’s getting away from what worked. It’s pretty clear the success-fail ratio vastly favors the D-1 transfers.

Did you consider that he has tried to recruit Div. I transfers, but they don't like his style of play, or his terse, old-school style coaching style?

Definitely a possibility given the reasoning of some of the transfers leaving the program in recent years. The “why” is irrelevant though, imo. A change is needed either way. Staff has not shown they can change with the times both in coaching and recruiting.

 

[GrizBall]

Great research. That takes a little bit of time.

I also feel it is a “build it and they will come” argument. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that recently ISU and UM have been the slowest playing teams in the conference.

If you are a talented guard you likely are not attracted to either program. The next talented guard I hear say “I am looking for a program that wants to play in the low 60’s” will be my first.

And two of the better transfers Rorie (god son) and Manuel (native) represent situations unlikely to repeat itself in the portal.

Even Moody (“I wanted my wife and kids to be closer to my family”) will likely never be an important consideration of anyone transferring to UM.

 

[mtgrizrule]

I actually believe, this can be resolved internally, maybe this season.
Someone spend a few practices with Whitney to elevate his shot!
He sets up well, he's pretty balanced. He just needs to elevate his shooting angle. With him, it would be an easy transition. If he bought in, it could be done in a few days to a few weeks.

As for Brown, the potential is there. He just needs to learn to channel his energy and let the game come to him. He's still an underclassmen. He's got time on his side.

Also, you conveniently leave out Vazquez' improved play the past month. He's been very solid off the bench.

I see some merit to these critiques. However, I honestly think, it simply comes down to getting more shots to fall. The execution is there most games. Unfortunately, the shots simply aren't falling consistently.

This team is still pretty cohesive. What they're not doing is consistently executing from the inside out. Thomas and Bannan both have nice inside games. We need to rotate them more inside. I believe Oke can be an effective contributor. He just doesn't get the minutes. In the few minutes he gets, he makes things happen.

Overall, this team is better with a consistent 10 man rotation.
I'd commit to those little things, if I were Travis. They also need to eliminate the costly breakdowns at the worse times.

This team is still very cohesive, compared to last season. They're not as far off as some here think. One last minor change, let Nap create and even post him up some on smaller guards. He played inside a lot in HS. He has good post moves and is good passer.

I hope to see some minor adjustments the next few games.
A lot can be overcome.

 

[GrizBall]

I actually believe, this can be resolved internally, maybe this season.
Someone spend a few practices with Whitney to elevate his shot!
He sets up well, he's pretty balanced. He just needs to elevate his shooting angle. With him, it would be an easy transition. If he bought in, it could be done in a few days to a few weeks.

As for Brown, the potential is there. He just needs to learn to channel his energy and let the game come to him. He's still an underclassmen. He's got time on his side.

Also, you conveniently leave out Vazquez' improved play the past month. He's been very solid off the bench.

I see some merit to these critiques. However, I honestly think, it simply comes down to getting more shots to fall. The execution is there most games. Unfortunately, the shots simply aren't falling consistently.

This team is still pretty cohesive. What they're not doing is consistently executing from the inside out. Thomas and Bannan both have nice inside games. We need to rotate them more inside. I believe Oke can be an effective contributor. He just doesn't get the minutes. In the few minutes he gets, he makes things happen.

Overall, this team is better with a consistent 10 man rotation.
I'd commit to those little things, if I were Travis. They also need to eliminate the costly breakdowns at the worse times.

This team is still very cohesive, compared to last season. They're not as far off as some here think. One last minor change, let Nap create and even post him up some on smaller guards. He played inside a lot in HS. He has good post moves and is good passer.

I hope to see some minor adjustments the next few games.
A lot can be overcome.

Whitney has been in Missoula for 3 summers and 2 springs. That is the time to work on shot mechanics and other individual development (not with 15 games left to go in the season). Not like this is new news. He shot 31% from 3 his first year. 28% last year and is 24% this year. Feels like that probably should have been a priority for the player development coaches the past 3 summers and 2 springs.

Brown is listed as a RS-JR. This is his 4th year of college, which means he is likely at least 22 years-old. In the age of Covid, I don't know what constitutes an underclassman, but I am not sure I would consider Brown one.

 

[mtgrizrule]

I actually believe, this can be resolved internally, maybe this season.
Someone spend a few practices with Whitney to elevate his shot!
He sets up well, he's pretty balanced. He just needs to elevate his shooting angle. With him, it would be an easy transition. If he bought in, it could be done in a few days to a few weeks.

As for Brown, the potential is there. He just needs to learn to channel his energy and let the game come to him. He's still an underclassmen. He's got time on his side.

Also, you conveniently leave out Vazquez' improved play the past month. He's been very solid off the bench.

I see some merit to these critiques. However, I honestly think, it simply comes down to getting more shots to fall. The execution is there most games. Unfortunately, the shots simply aren't falling consistently.

This team is still pretty cohesive. What they're not doing is consistently executing from the inside out. Thomas and Bannan both have nice inside games. We need to rotate them more inside. I believe Oke can be an effective contributor. He just doesn't get the minutes. In the few minutes he gets, he makes things happen.

Overall, this team is better with a consistent 10 man rotation.
I'd commit to those little things, if I were Travis. They also need to eliminate the costly breakdowns at the worse times.

This team is still very cohesive, compared to last season. They're not as far off as some here think. One last minor change, let Nap create and even post him up some on smaller guards. He played inside a lot in HS. He has good post moves and is good passer.

I hope to see some minor adjustments the next few games.
A lot can be overcome.

Whitney has been in Missoula for 3 summers and 2 springs. That is the time to work on shot mechanics and other individual development (not with 15 games left to go in the season). Not like this is new news. He shot 31% from 3 his first year. 28% last year and is 24% this year. Feels like that probably should have been a priority for the player development coaches the past 3 summers and 2 springs.

Brown is listed as a RS-JR. This is his 4th year of college, which means he is likely at least 22 years-old. In the age of Covid, I don't know what constitutes an underclassman, but I am not sure I would consider Brown one.

Your right regarding the off season. Unless it's a mental thing with his perimeter shot, physically it's a quick simple fix.
Unlike Bannan, which would be a longer process, ridding him of his low push shot.

As for Brown, I thought he had 3 years left. I apparently didn't recall that right. I still like his physical potential. Harnessing his emotions and energy, may be a big challenge.

I do believe in this team's upside. Last year, there was a chemistry issue. This year, it's a matter of more shots falling.

 

[GrizPony]

Whitney has been in Missoula for 3 summers and 2 springs. That is the time to work on shot mechanics and other individual development (not with 15 games left to go in the season). Not like this is new news. He shot 31% from 3 his first year. 28% last year and is 24% this year. Feels like that probably should have been a priority for the player development coaches the past 3 summers and 2 springs.

Brown is listed as a RS-JR. This is his 4th year of college, which means he is likely at least 22 years-old. In the age of Covid, I don't know what constitutes an underclassman, but I am not sure I would consider Brown one.

Your right regarding the off season. Unless it's a mental thing with his perimeter shot, physically it's a quick simple fix.
Unlike Bannan, which would be a longer process, ridding him of his low push shot.

As for Brown, I thought he had 3 years left. I apparently didn't recall that right. I still like his physical potential. Harnessing his emotions and energy, may be a big challenge.

I do believe in this team's upside. Last year, there was a chemistry issue. This year, it's a matter of more shots falling.

Agree with you completely. And Vasquez is getting his confidence back that was gutted last year. We are getting better. Tough but crucial game tonight.

 

[Dillon]

I saw the Griz FASTBREAK a couple of games ago instead of throwing it around the 3 point line. Maybe they could try that more often. COUGH COUGH!

 

[fanofzoo]

I saw the Griz FASTBREAK a couple of games ago instead of throwing it around the 3 point line. Maybe they could try that more often. COUGH COUGH!

You were delusional, that never happens.