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GRIZ B ball flat out sucks!

PlayerRep said:
In the Cat game, McGillis had 7 rebounds, 12 points (on 4 for 8 shooting;1-1 from three point range), 3-4 from the line, 2 assists (and 3 turnovers) and 1 steal--and was the second leading scorer and second leading rebounder.

His shooting percentage for the seaons is in the same pack as the other players, except Qvale and Ward. He's the 3rd leading rebounder on the team. He has a higher percentage of offensive rebounds than the other big guys. He plays good defense. He's second on the team in steals, behind Cherry. He has a slightly better assist to turnover ratio as Selvig, and a better one than all of the big guys. He's 5th on the team in scoring. He is also one of the best hustlers on the team. He is truly a team player.

Quite frankly, I don't understand some of your comments. He's not super man, but he's a good player and he's having a reasonably good season.
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I believe it is the consistency that is the main focus here....it is missing...but to put it on one person is not fair...this team is undeachieving because of inconsistent play....they are really much better than the record says....not sure how a coach can change that..I'm not being paid for that...I really want Tinkle to succeed and be at UM for years...
 
MGR, not one poster in this thread has made a realistic suggestion for improvement, in my view. Most just complain or provide their observations. Hammer is not correct. The team has terrific chemistry, and it doesn't lack heart. I go to the games. I know the coaches and the players. I played two college sports. I know what chemistry and heart are.

Yes, the team should be playing better, and be more consistent. The team has good talent and good potential. they've had some good wins. They generally play good defense. I think they will improve and get on a roll. They have played fairly well at home (I missed the NC game, so don't know what happened there). It's tough to win on the road in the Big Sky. They need to get more aggressive and try to take it to the opponents on the road. They need to find a way to win more of the road games. Give them a chance. Support them. They are good kids. I think their goal is to be hitting on all cylinders by tourney time. They might just surprise you about that time.

It hasn't been all rosey for the team. Selvig has missed playing and practice time, and still has issues. Qvale's dad has been seriously ill. He missed some games, and has presumably been distracted a bit at times. Both Banny and Staudacher have had back problems. Taylor was out with a shoulder injury. He is now having to deal with a shooting hand issue, which requires taping.

I'm sorry, but McGillis, Banny and Ward are only as tall as they are. They just aren't 6'8" or 6'9", and aren't going to grow this season. Cherry is lightning quick and can handle the ball, drive and pass, but he's not yet an outside shooter. AJ is very good, but he hasn't been perfect in every game. I think he will get closer to perfect. I think he will get more aggressive and start to take over games earlier and certainly in the second half. Staudacher is a shooter, not a driver. These things are just a fact of life. However, all of these guys are very good at other things. My view is that it will take improved, more aggressive, and more consistent from all players, especially AJ, to get the team the need road wins, and to hold serve on home court.
 
PlayerRep said:
MGR, not one poster in this thread has made a realistic suggestion for improvement, in my view. Most just complain or provide their observations. Hammer is not correct. The team has terrific chemistry, and it doesn't lack heart. I go to the games. I know the coaches and the players. I played two college sports. I know what chemistry and heart are.
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You always have to get that little plug in there to prove your better than other poster don't you? In fact Hammer is about as devoted as a Griz fan can get and has good connections along with attendance to the games. You are just trying to fluff up your ego again....lame :jack:
 
Player Rep, you make some fine points, and as has been said, your a very optimistic fan..I'm not being smart or critical..But others make some very fine points as well, and I think most serious basketball watchers feel we have the best talent in many a year, but they don't play like it...There is no doubt in my mind that the players are doing everything in their power , but they don't seem to get the correct messages on what it takes to win in given situations..I don't think its up to me or any fan to offer suggestions on how to make things better-we have too wide a variety of thoughts-, but thats the reason we have coaches..In my opinion Tinkle is just not getting over the coaching hump to success..---he wants to very badly, and I doubt there are many who do not want him to succeed--but its not happening..There are injuries and setbacks to every team every day,-thats not an excuse , its a fact of basketball. We have seen the defense improve dramatically, over the last few years-perhaps because of coach Evans, but the offense isn't there on a consistant basis. We may get some better over the course of the year, but unless there is a major influence levied on the offense, we will flounder....(one man's opinion)
 
Why would inconsistent shooting be something to be blamed primarily on the coaches?

Why would inconsistent play, i.e. some very nice games and wins contrasted to some poor games and losses, be something to be blamed primarily on the coaches? I would like to hear some of your specific comments on this one.

What is causing the lack of aggressiveness and attacking the rim, especially on the road? Note that some of the quotes from coaches and players indicate that the coaches have been coaching for more aggressiveness?

Do you think coaching caused AJ to miss the front end of two one-and-ones late in the game? What do you think caused AJ, and others, to miss several lay-ins? I'm not down on AJ. I think he's a great player, and that he is the guy to lead the Griz to more victories (and think he will). He's admitted that he isn't playing as well as last year and as well as he should. Do you think that's coaching?

I don't give the coaches are free pass on this. It is their job to make the Griz play better and more consistent. But on any given night, and any given play, the coaches are not shooting, defending or passing.
 
Savage Paw HAS to be Alpha. Both have the jerk-off icon as their favorite. :lol:

Anyway, you can analyze, dissect, criticize, etc., every aspect of this game, but even I, no bb expert, could see in that game that the Griz were not on with their well-taken shots. Someone here already showed numbers that had the Griz made even half their missed shots, they'd have won & this discussion would be the opposite of what it is now. Those shots were taken with well-designed plays; they just were not executed. I also can't understand criticism of the D. Even if the Griz held the Cats to less than the 61, then the game would have to be won by the Griz 51-? I think it's unrealistic to think that any BSC team is going to score less that 60, no matter how good your D is. No, poor shooting lost this game.
 
David2 said:
had the Griz made even half their missed shots, they'd have won & this discussion would be the opposite of what it is now.
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i think that goes without saying and would apply to every team at every level about 99.9% of tht time. if i'm not mistaken, if you guys would have made half of the shots that you missed, that would have put you near 80% shooting! :shock: find me teams out there that shoot 80%. not gonna happen. i don't care if you're kansas or kentucky. but on those rare occasions, chances are very good that if you were amazing enough to shoot that percentage...you'd probably win the game. fact is, the big sky is very even this year, and no teams are really standing out. i think the griz have a good squad this year with the ability to make a run in the bsc tourney. but i don't think that you are so talented that you should be mad at your record. you have very average talent this year much like the rest of the sky. obviously there is room to improve, but i think you guys will be fine. cats are in the same boat. lotta ball left to be played.
 
I think our biggest problem on offense is our inability, or lack of desire, to set and use picks properly. Watch our dribble, hand-off, around the perimeter, offense which we use WAY too much. We rarely use a pick properly and it creates no separation for a shot or a clean passing lane to the post. The player receiving the ball rarely waits until the picker is set properly or doesn't scrape off the picker close enough to shed the defender. That is fundamental junior high basketball but I don't see us executing properly. Is it the coaches or players fault? I don't know, but it sure should have been fixed by now.

Further, I don't care if Staud is a "shooter". Any shooter knows that you have to drive occasionally or your one-dimensional nature is easily defended. He is arguably the most yoked player we have. I want him to head fake, drive baseline, stick a knee in a defenders chest, land on the guy, break his sternum and get a charge called. Set a tone! Larry McBride did that once a game, minimum, when he played with Krysko. It's called playing D1 ball, not patty cake ball.
 
The Griz too often look like they are being paid by the hour during games. Great teams find ways to win.
 
Player Rep, I'm not singling you out, but you have good thoughts about what is happening, and I'm interested in commenting on them.. You mention inconsistent shooting, missed layins, and lack of agressiveness on the road.. All things that seemingly are totally under the control of a player..I can trace some portion of all these flaws back to the coaching..Shooting is a mind game, and the more confident you feel, the better your shot....same with layins etc. Agressiveness and lack of it , is dictated to some degree by your coach in an indirect fashion.. Playing on the road, you feel that your aren't going to get the benefit of calls, so you naturally learn to be more cautious, and unfortunately this turns into being less agressive. Further more a coach can tell you to be aggressive, but in the next sentence, tell you not to foul...I know- thats basketball, but what I'm trying to say , is that a confident player will easily out perform a player who isn't sure of what he needs to do to win, or please his coach, so he can stay in the game. Outside motivation comes from fear(Bobby Knight style) or high expectations of what he believes his team and he can do on any given occasion( derived from your coaches and your team feeling about your coaches ability to guide you successfully).. On too many occasions I've seen what I believe is a lack of confidence on the players part, as to what to concentrate on to get the big win.. The desire to win is present with all the players-- and the coaches, but how to utilize their skills in face of different defensive schemes needs to fine tuned.. In my opinion..It may be a double or triple screen to free Quale or AJ, but there are coaching means to get your best players freed up, and working confidently.....
 
racehorsewilly said:
Player Rep, I'm not singling you out, but you have good thoughts about what is happening, and I'm interested in commenting on them.. You mention inconsistent shooting, missed layins, and lack of agressiveness on the road.. All things that seemingly are totally under the control of a player..I can trace some portion of all these flaws back to the coaching..Shooting is a mind game, and the more confident you feel, the better your shot....same with layins etc. Agressiveness and lack of it , is dictated to some degree by your coach in an indirect fashion.. Playing on the road, you feel that your aren't going to get the benefit of calls, so you naturally learn to be more cautious, and unfortunately this turns into being less agressive. Further more a coach can tell you to be aggressive, but in the next sentence, tell you not to foul...I know- thats basketball, but what I'm trying to say , is that a confident player will easily out perform a player who isn't sure of what he needs to do to win, or please his coach, so he can stay in the game. Outside motivation comes from fear(Bobby Knight style) or high expectations of what he believes his team and he can do on any given occasion( derived from your coaches and your team feeling about your coaches ability to guide you successfully).. On too many occasions I've seen what I believe is a lack of confidence on the players part, as to what to concentrate on to get the big win.. The desire to win is present with all the players-- and the coaches, but how to utilize their skills in face of different defensive schemes needs to fine tuned.. In my opinion..It may be a double or triple screen to free Quale or AJ, but there are coaching means to get your best players freed up, and working confidently.....
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I didn't think you were singling me out. I can't imagine that coaching has anything to do with the shooting of Staudacher and AJ. I can't imagine that coaching has anything, or much of anything, to do with a player shooting well on one night and poorly on another night. I don't see Tinkle yanking players in and out, when they make a mistake. More of this was done in past seasons. You have better eyes than I, if you can see lack of confidence in the players, or certain players. I don't buy that missed lay-ins have anything to do with coaching. I agree that playing aggressively, and aggressively on the road, has something to do with both coaches and players. However, without knowing what's being said in the huddle, I don't see how anyone can determine whether lack of aggressive style is attributable to the team or the coaches--especially when the coaches have been quoted as saying they were pushing the team to be more aggressive. I don't think that telling players not to foul has anything to do with being aggressive and attacking on the offensive end. Qvale doesn't need screens. He needs the ball in decent position down low, and then he needs to decide whether he can put it in or whether he should dish out to a shooter.
 
PlayerRep said:
MGR, not one poster in this thread has made a realistic suggestion for improvement, in my view. Most just complain or provide their observations. Hammer is not correct. The team has terrific chemistry, and it doesn't lack heart. I go to the games. I know the coaches and the players. I played two college sports. I know what chemistry and heart are.

Yes, the team should be playing better, and be more consistent. The team has good talent and good potential. they've had some good wins. They generally play good defense. I think they will improve and get on a roll. They have played fairly well at home (I missed the NC game, so don't know what happened there). It's tough to win on the road in the Big Sky. They need to get more aggressive and try to take it to the opponents on the road. They need to find a way to win more of the road games. Give them a chance. Support them. They are good kids. I think their goal is to be hitting on all cylinders by tourney time. They might just surprise you about that time.

It hasn't been all rosey for the team. Selvig has missed playing and practice time, and still has issues. Qvale's dad has been seriously ill. He missed some games, and has presumably been distracted a bit at times. Both Banny and Staudacher have had back problems. Taylor was out with a shoulder injury. He is now having to deal with a shooting hand issue, which requires taping.

I'm sorry, but McGillis, Banny and Ward are only as tall as they are. They just aren't 6'8" or 6'9", and aren't going to grow this season. Cherry is lightning quick and can handle the ball, drive and pass, but he's not yet an outside shooter. AJ is very good, but he hasn't been perfect in every game. I think he will get closer to perfect. I think he will get more aggressive and start to take over games earlier and certainly in the second half. Staudacher is a shooter, not a driver. These things are just a fact of life. However, all of these guys are very good at other things. My view is that it will take improved, more aggressive, and more consistent from all players, especially AJ, to get the team the need road wins, and to hold serve on home court.
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PR, thanks for the reply, after the 1st paragraph :thumb: It is nice to hear your somewhat critical side, and letting us see a little different side of your opinions. I knew somewhere you had that in you.

You and I both have said and agree coaches cannot put the ball in the basket for their players, and that will never change. However, when you see a consistent struggle in any one aspect of any sport, that is a sign something is not being done right to strengthen any weakness. Do not get me wrong, I think highly of Tinkle personally and professionally. I am proud that he is our coach and represents everything good personally and professionally in NCAA athletics. However, in his time here there are a few things that have become patterns with his teams that are concerns to our basketball fan base. Those few things are team rebounding, offensive consistency/perimeter shooting/penetrating, element of surprise or diversity in offense and defensive strategy (they are predictable on both ends), and sticktoitness (stolen from LK, and a word that is so fitting). Over time in my posts I have offered solutions to all these things ranging from different strategies, to creativity, etc.

So let me touch on those things.
(1) Rebounding- (a) get 2 true 6'8" plus bangers and surround them with good scorers. (b) Have an offense designed to get the likes of a Selvig or Hasquet(I know he is gone) to help with rebounding, instead of them be useless in rebounding by hanging on the perimeter way too often. I do not mind bigs hanging on the perimeter when rebounding is not a problem, but with the GRIZ it is and has been problem.

(2) Offense consistency, shooting, penetrating-
(a) Get a shooting expert to work with these kids one on one, offseason or regular season. Hell the former Whitworth coach (cannot remember his name) is one hell of a shooting coach. I learned more from him in 1 day of training than I have from most coaches combined. Speaking of shooting coaches, John Morrison (Adams Dad) last I knew was in Spokane, and actually is a shooting instructor, since giving up coaching. He may be a little tempormental, and even Bob Knight like at times, nonetheless he knows shooting and is hard assed to get players/pupils to do well. I met John Morrison in an open gym in Glendive, MT, I played well against his JC players. He took me aside,told me I have game, but the shooting form needs work. He spent a little time with me over a few months, just breaking down the fundamentals and starting over. Shortly thereafter, I became a good shooter, too bad I did not have the quicks or ballhandling talent. Over the years, I have taught many of his principles to a few AAU players, my own amatuer teams, and they got better too. I watched Strait struggle at the FT line, and all it took was him learning to balance his weight longer on his toes. I watch Cherry, I see solid ball rotation and good footwork, yet also see he needs alot of upper body work to be a good shooter. I see Staudacher have one of the most picture perfect shots ever, yet since his injury he fades to either direction from time to time, he used to never fade one way or the other. McGillis needs to release higher for better trajectory more consistently. Young needs repetition and better offensive awareness, and better rotation on his shot, like it is a matter of a slight hand or finger adjustment, or maybe as simple as feel for the ball. Whatever it is with him, it is very slight.

(b) Out of the ordinary strategy: Such as posting up guards or SF's(see how EWU used Stuckey and how teams took advantage of Ellis a few years back) on quicker smaller players when our bigs are not being effective or taken out of the game offensively. Clear out the lane to utilize one on one matchups (Huse's strategy). I have seen us rarely post up our guards and SF's, but very seldom. I really am hard pressed to think of any clear out plays that were not in the closing seconds. Clear out plays and opening the lane up also go hand in hand with penetration.

(3) Element of surprise/diversity, I already touched on offense. Defensively, where are the traps and press defense at opportune times? LK was a genius when to call these and for how long to use them. With the likes of Will Cherry, AJ, Young we have athletic enough and quick enough players in the backcourt to pull these things off occastionally and even for minutes at a time. In addition we have Qvale and Selvig to protect the lane if we should get burned. Is that not what a good big man is for? Yet we very seldom run those things even with the right personnel. This leading to teams being able to easier prepare for the GRIZ.

(4) Sticktoitness- Tinkle is 100% right every post game in his team analysis, and pregame preview of our opponents. I very seldom disagree with him, meaning they do damn well scouting a team. Once again, he is right, we have to get the ball inside and go inside out offensively. This has to be frustrating for him, because they are SO RIGHT, yet when that is being defensed well our players give up on continuing to try beating the given defense. He is also right we have to get our shooters open shots, but after 1, maybe 2 screens or failed series in executing they give up on it. Damn it, run Staudacher, Taylor, and Young defenders through screens all game long, eventually that wears on the defenders. Speaking of screens, one poster is right, the screens are not effective as they should be. When they are effective we see our shooters get very good shots.

On the positives, Tinkle's players take good shots and we do not see many forced shots. They usually take good care of the ball. They play lights out defense and work hard. All those are signs of good discipline from the coaches, and player awareness. I just cannot figure out how those things are so easily applied in those aspects but are not applied effectively for effecient offense, rebounding, penetration, and sticktoitness?

It is evident to me the coaching and discipline is there. This team is capable of being well rounded in every aspect, but why are they so consistent in some things and so inconsistent at others? I give Tinkle credit, he knows all this. I can tell by his pre and postgame interviews. Why aren't the results on the court being seen in improvement more often by the players? Your guess is as good as mine.
 
MGR:

Let me know when you agree that you were wrong in endorsing Hammer's comment that UM doesn't have team chemistry. I am 100% sure on this one. Also, let me know when you decide that the statement that the team lacks heart is incorrect.

It's obviously too late to pick up a power forward of the type you want for this year. Also, at what position would you play Selvig? He's not your type of 4. I assume you would play him.

In the Cat game, it wasn't going to work to have Qvale stopping eveything down the middle, because the 6'8" "center" for MSU likes to go to the permeter. He had taken more 3 point shots than anyone on the team coming into the game (and going out of the game, I assume). He hit the long 3 late in the game when UM was down by only 1 point.

Some stats. UM is 2nd in the conference (8.) in scoring margin, to NC's 8.1. UM is shooting 46.9%, compared to 47.9 and 47.5 for PSU and NAU. UM is shooting 37.1 compared to league leader NC at 39.2. That's pretty good shooting overall. UM's bad shooting comes in streaks. Doesn't look like coaching to me. UM is down in rebounding (including offensive rebounds), but is also very good in rebounding defense, so is slightly positive in that stat (3rd in conference in margin). UM is second to last in conference in assists.

I am not qualified to say much on offensive scheme (altho I can usually spot those who know less than I do).
 
They may have great off the court chemistry but on the court they don't seem to be on the same page a lot of the time. I will say again I would love to see the coaches show a bit more emotion during the game. I think that emotion would transfer to the players on the court. The Griz/Cat game just felt like a non conference game to me.
 
Selvig is a player without a true position. That is a strength, and I do love his game. If we use a big like Hasquet or Selvig as perimeter players, then we need to surround them with more rebounders. We do not have that kind of depth to accomodate their perimeter roles. Until then, a player like Hasquet or Selvig can be used more for rebounding. They both were/are capable of putting up good rebounding numbers, but were/are not put in position to help as often at rebounding. We see examples in college and pro's with players like Selvig, the reason those players excel are because they have the right supporting cast to accomodate them.

You are right it is too late to pick up a PF this year, but we have had the opportunity the last few years and have not. I posted after Strait graduated, I was concerned we had not found anyone to replace what he brought to the GRIZ. Sure enough, 2 years later we are still struggling at PF. Thankfully, Qvale has developed a lot since last year, but he cannot do it alone.

Statisically, you are right in your points, the problems is one game we are great from the perimeter, then we have 2 games we struggle, 1 game we are average, 1 game we struggle, another game we struggle, another game we are good. another game we struggle. You said it well, we are inconsistent. For us to win more, shooting has to be there more games than it is. We need to be offensively effecient 3 out of 4 games, not 1 or 2 games out of 4.

Rebounding is also inconsistent, and should be there every game. I have heard basketball coaches at all levels preach 4 things can always be consistent: Defense, rebounding, smart play, and effort. The GRIZ have defense most every game. Smart Play is above average. Effort with this years team has improved over past years, but it is not to the heart of a champion level consistently. Rebounding though needs improved. We should not lose the rebounding war as often as we do.

Offense comes and goes with any team at all levels. The problem is ours go into long offensive draughts for 5 minutes or better most every game, and those stalls are what cost us games. Last 2 years the offensive struggles caused defensive breakdowns. This year's team has improved drastically in believing they still have a chance and continue to play tough defense, so that is great progress. We just need to figure how to reduce those offensive draughts.

Offensively we see shooters like Staudacher sprinkled on most rosters. Yet those teams know that guy has to perform consistently for success of the team. They run much more screens for whoever their given shooter is. We were very good shooting under LK, and it was not because of better talent. It was because we Matthews and Criswell were not afraid to take the ball to the hole. They created opportunities for themselves and their teammates. Cherry and AJ are both every bit the players as Matthews and Criswell, but penetrating is not as big part of the game plan now than it was for them. Why?

PR, myself and few others agree with you on some things or to some extent. Why do you belittle those that are not 100% with you or feel it necessary to make yourself sound so damn superior? You knock some knowlegable posters in football threads as well as basketball threads. You challenge posters to give reasoning behind their opinions and thoughts, yet if they are not spot on with yours, you come off as you are right and they are wrong. Hell, most the time it is not even a subject of who is right or wrong. Most these posts are entirely objective so why get so high and mighty?
 
MGR, I can agree with most of what you just said, except the last paragraph. I tend to state my views directly. I will sometimes tease people. I generally don't care to take the time to baby people, especially certain posters and ones I don't respect. I am sometimes fairly confident in what I state (often because I have done the research, talked to coaches, players, parents, athletic dept. people, etc. and follow certain things fairly closely). Sometimes, when I see something that doesn't look right, I will make some calls or send some texts/emails, to get better information or the answer. If someone is wrong, or I think they're wrong, sometimes I will tell them that. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, that doesn't mean that their opinion is right, and that doesn't mean that other people can't disagree with them. Regarding my opinions, I almost always say "I think". I doubt that many qualify with "I think" more than I do. If some people can't take some ribbing, or get their feelings hurt, on a message board, then maybe they should find something else to do. Or, maybe I should start using smiley faces in all of my posts.
 
Had to come in as I too, am one very frustrated fan but have great faith that this ball club can still get it done however, as much it pains me to be critical of our guard play, look back over the season and you will notice our guards are getting scored on way too much. Although the guards have great anticipation and get steals , their one on one defense is far from spectacular.The opposing teams back court scores as much as our guards. Our defense is still one of our strengths but week side help is not great and slow to react. For those of you who criticize McGillis, I feel he is one of best defenders and is in someones face 95% of the time, his efforts don't always show up on the stat sheets but he does get after it. I would encourage less subing and let those that are playing good remain in game --longer. Sometimes I see Young & Stockton really getting after it and then get pulled after 3-4 minutes of effort? Keep the faith ..lots of season left..now, go get a couple this weekend, at worst a split, and some home court wins at home to close and enter the tourney on somewhat of a roll. The BSC is very even and the team that gets on a little sprint will win this thing. GO Griz!
 
The team doesn't suck, but they are not gonna get people excited until they start putting up Northern Iowa-type win and loss numbers (or even better). I'm afraid that's the only thing that will get people to turn out. I'm not sure how patient Griz fans are to see how Tinkle's recruits will pan out.
 
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