Fritz tweets; Pflu expects JJ to remain at UM

[AZGrizFan]

Did he "manufacture" Johnson's charges?

Well. somebody is manufacturing charges. Johnson hasn't been charged with anything.

Isn't it interesting how mobs work?

And equating any of these charges with a serial, violent rapist is really, I think, disgusting.

And justifying these behaviors by attempting to classify degrees of rape is equally disgusting.

Yeah, OK violent rape by a serial rapist is just the same ... if he uses a knife, it's just the same, if he beats the hell out of her, it's just the same. Just the same. Just the same.

The distinction here, in any case, is precisely the one made by the Administration which chose to classify the seriousness of the rape, and the message it wishes to send to the victims, by the national origin of the rapist ... and to justify its behavior regarding a particularly heinous and violent sexual offense by saying, "it's OK," then under circumstances not nearly so heinous, firing a coach and an AD saying "it's not OK."

I'm sure the girls were all very relieved that a knife wasn't used. Probably why they took so long to report it, huh? :roll:

 

[UMGriz75]

I'm sure the girls were all very relieved that a knife wasn't used. Probably why they took so long to report it, huh?

Are you sick?

 

[AZGrizFan]

I'm sure the girls were all very relieved that a knife wasn't used. Probably why they took so long to report it, huh?

Are you sick?

You're the one trying to minimize their rapes.

 

[UMGriz75]

Did Engstrom "manufacture" Donaldson's charges?

Nobody said he did.

The alleged rape occurred in September 2010. For whatever reasons, the alleged victim did not report it until December, 2011.

There was no violence alleged. The alleged victim admitted drinking and was sleeping at Donaldson's house. Donaldson had apparently also been drinking and apparently admitted the rape and apologized. He has, however, also pleaded not guilty.

Pflu suspended Donaldson indefinitely from the team as of December, 2011. If that's the written policy, then he followed it. If he didn't follow it, the University appears as of three months ago to have said nothing about it, so I am assuming from that that Pflu followed the specific written policy that O'Day/Engstrom had in place.

As to Donaldson's independent status as a student, however, the University took no action that I can find one way or the other. Apparently there is no written policy for the student population at large under such circumstances at least until a conviction or acquittal.

As to the two most recent events then,

1) neither incident was athletics related,
2) neither was involved in a public setting,
3) neither involved the student/athlete in a situation acting as a representative of the institution,
4) both involved personal relationship issues,
5) both involved circumstances in which a coach has about the most minimal influence possible; students do still have some level of privacy in which University policy cannot invade, even if they do later involve charges,
6) one of them has not involved any charges brought against the athlete,
7) the Coach followed written University policy with regard to suspending Donaldson,
8) the Coach duly followed Engstrom's new written policy regarding athlete participation and committee review for Johnson, which reinstated the athlete for practices,
9) the Coach reinstated the athlete as recommended under the "Engstrom" policy,
10) the Coach was fired.

If a coach might feel a bit put upon as a scapegoat for overall UM Administration failures, this coach is it.

--

 

[UMGriz75]

I'm sure the girls were all very relieved that a knife wasn't used. Probably why they took so long to report it, huh?

Are you sick?

You're the one trying to minimize their rapes.

You seem to be minimizing violent rapes, which is just weird.

But, are you alleging Johnson raped somebody? Given the available facts, that's disgusting all by itself as an overt fabrication just because you like to argue on chat boards. For the record, there is no allegation to that effect, you just made it up. Thanks for slandering the athletes.

I'd say you're the one trying to maximize the allegations while excusing the fact that it is the UM Administration that did some amazing minimizing when an alleged violent rape, by a serial rapist was, in fact something it had to deal with, and dealt with considerably differently than it expects employees to deal with allegations perhaps not quite as egregious.

 

[TouchdownMontana]

UM Griz 75 I agree with your post completely. One other thing also is the 2010 rape that was turned over to the police and the four players were exonerated by the police depatment. This decision was sent to all personnel at the UM.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I'm sure the girls were all very relieved that a knife wasn't used. Probably why they took so long to report it, huh?

Are you sick?

You're the one trying to minimize their rapes.

You seem to be minimizing violent rapes, which is just weird.

But, are you alleging Johnson raped somebody? Given the available facts, that's disgusting all by itself as an overt fabrication just because you like to argue on chat boards. For the record, there is no allegation to that effect, you just made it up. Thanks for slandering the athletes.

I'd say you're the one trying to maximize the allegations while excusing the fact that it is the UM Administration that did some amazing minimizing when an alleged violent rape, by a serial rapist was, in fact something it had to deal with, and dealt with considerably differently than it expects employees to deal with allegations perhaps not quite as egregious.

Dude, YOU are the one who brought up violent rape and started comparing "degrees" of rape. And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that (unless you are counsel for the victim) there's probably just a tad bit of evidence that you don't know about regarding the alleged violate rape by a serial rapist.

 

[Tokyogriz]

Did Engstrom "manufacture" Donaldson's charges?

Nobody said he did.

The alleged rape occurred in September 2010. For whatever reasons, the alleged victim did not report it until December, 2011.

There was no violence alleged. The alleged victim admitted drinking and was sleeping at Donaldson's house. Donaldson had apparently also been drinking and apparently admitted the rape and apologized. He has, however, also pleaded not guilty.

Pflu suspended Donaldson indefinitely from the team as of December, 2011. If that's the written policy, then he followed it. If he didn't follow it, the University appears as of three months ago to have said nothing about it, so I am assuming from that that Pflu followed the specific written policy that O'Day/Engstrom had in place.

As to Donaldson's independent status as a student, however, the University took no action that I can find one way or the other. Apparently there is no written policy for the student population at large under such circumstances at least until a conviction or acquittal.

As to the two most recent events then,

1) neither incident was athletics related,
2) neither was involved in a public setting,
3) neither involved the student/athlete in a situation acting as a representative of the institution,
4) both involved personal relationship issues,
5) both involved circumstances in which a coach has about the most minimal influence possible; students do still have some level of privacy in which University policy cannot invade, even if they do later involve charges,
6) one of them has not involved any charges brought against the athlete,
7) the Coach followed written University policy with regard to suspending Donaldson,
8) the Coach duly followed Engstrom's new written policy regarding athlete participation and committee review for Johnson, which reinstated the athlete for practices,
9) the Coach reinstated the athlete as recommended under the "Engstrom" policy,
10) the Coach was fired.

If a coach might feel a bit put upon as a scapegoat for overall UM Administration failures, this coach is it.

--

Indeed not just the coach but the AD are both being publicly charaded as the cause for a UM disgrace and punished accordingly. Head of UM administration for the last several years and a campus leader before that Royce Engstrom is not taking any responsiblity which it is obvious does fall on his shoulders as much if not more than it ever did on Oday.

 

[wbtfg]

Tokyo, just out of curiosity how do you feel about Foley?

He's been around for much longer than Engstrom and is/was O'Day's direct supervisor.

 

[AZGrizFan]

As to the two most recent events then,

1) neither incident was athletics related,
2) neither was involved in a public setting,
3) neither involved the student/athlete in a situation acting as a representative of the institution,
4) both involved personal relationship issues,
5) both involved circumstances in which a coach has about the most minimal influence possible; students do still have some level of privacy in which University policy cannot invade, even if they do later involve charges,
6) one of them has not involved any charges brought against the athlete,
7) the Coach followed written University policy with regard to suspending Donaldson,
8) the Coach duly followed Engstrom's new written policy regarding athlete participation and committee review for Johnson, which reinstated the athlete for practices,
9) the Coach reinstated the athlete as recommended under the "Engstrom" policy,
10) the Coach was fired.

If a coach might feel a bit put upon as a scapegoat for overall UM Administration failures, this coach is it.

--

Gotta love you internet lawyers. You mean to tell me that while these students were allegedly raping these girls, they weren't acting as "a representative of the institution"? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[UMGriz75]

Gotta love you internet lawyers. You mean to tell me that while these students were allegedly raping these girls, they weren't acting as "a representative of the institution"? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't "love" the obsession you have with suggesting that Jordan Johnson raped anyone. It is a slander, pure and simple, something an internet Troll would be obsessed with.

 

[grizophile]

I thought it was odd when Pat was appointed to the BOR. But he can make hard decisions and take the heat, as well. Perhaps it is no coincidence. I have never believed this was a rash decision. It is time to support the university, support the team, and move on.

Re' Pat Williams: What would you expect from a liberal, progressive, left-wing, Democrat...oh, never mind!

Butte Guy.....probably kiss your "War Wimp" ass up and down the street?????

 

[grizophile]

I thought it was odd when Pat was appointed to the BOR. But he can make hard decisions and take the heat, as well. Perhaps it is no coincidence. I have never believed this was a rash decision. It is time to support the university, support the team, and move on.

Re' Pat Williams: What would you expect from a liberal, progressive, left-wing, Democrat...oh, never mind!

Butte Guy.....probably kiss your "War Wimp" ass up and down the street?????

That should read "Kick" instead of "Kiss"

 

[AZGrizFan]

Gotta love you internet lawyers. You mean to tell me that while these students were allegedly raping these girls, they weren't acting as "a representative of the institution"? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't "love" the obsession you have with suggesting that Jordan Johnson raped anyone. It is a slander, pure and simple, something an internet Troll would be obsessed with.

Who said anything about Jordan Johnson? YOU. :roll:

 

[UMGriz75]

Gotta love you internet lawyers. You mean to tell me that while these students were allegedly raping these girls, they weren't acting as "a representative of the institution"? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't "love" the obsession you have with suggesting that Jordan Johnson raped anyone. It is a slander, pure and simple, something an internet Troll would be obsessed with.

Who said anything about Jordan Johnson? YOU. :roll:

Correct: My comment: "6) one of them has not involved any charges brought against the athlete" for rape or anything else for that matter.

Your comment: "You're the one trying to minimize their rapes."

My comment was true.

Since my comments referred specifically to Beau Donaldson and Jordan Johnson, and also specifically distinguished between the two, your comment stands in marked contrast by incorporating both of them as having committed "rapes." Not even "alleged" rapes. You've already got both of them sentenced. Nice guy. From all us "internet lawyers," thanks for the presumption of innocence, particularly for the athlete who was never accused of rape in the first place.

I happen to think you are scum for making the suggestion. Isn't this situation bad enough without you making careless, disgusting and libelous remarks?

I guess the question answers itself.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Gotta love you internet lawyers. You mean to tell me that while these students were allegedly raping these girls, they weren't acting as "a representative of the institution"? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't "love" the obsession you have with suggesting that Jordan Johnson raped anyone. It is a slander, pure and simple, something an internet Troll would be obsessed with.

Who said anything about Jordan Johnson? YOU. :roll:

Correct: My comment: "6) one of them has not involved any charges brought against the athlete" for rape or anything else for that matter.

Your comment: "You're the one trying to minimize their rapes."

My comment was true.

Since my comments referred specifically to Beau Donaldson and Jordan Johnson, and also specifically distinguished between the two, your comment stands in marked contrast by incorporating both of them as having committed "rapes." Not even "alleged" rapes. You've already got both of them sentenced. Nice guy. From all us "internet lawyers," thanks for the presumption of innocence, particularly for the athlete who was never accused of rape in the first place.

I happen to think you are scum for making the suggestion. Isn't this situation bad enough without you making careless, disgusting and libelous remarks?

I guess the question answers itself.

My god, you ARE an attorney, aren't you? :lol: :roll:

 

[PlayerRep]

I don't "love" the obsession you have with suggesting that Jordan Johnson raped anyone. It is a slander, pure and simple, something an internet Troll would be obsessed with.

Who said anything about Jordan Johnson? YOU. :roll:

Correct: My comment: "6) one of them has not involved any charges brought against the athlete" for rape or anything else for that matter.

Your comment: "You're the one trying to minimize their rapes."

My comment was true.

Since my comments referred specifically to Beau Donaldson and Jordan Johnson, and also specifically distinguished between the two, your comment stands in marked contrast by incorporating both of them as having committed "rapes." Not even "alleged" rapes. You've already got both of them sentenced. Nice guy. From all us "internet lawyers," thanks for the presumption of innocence, particularly for the athlete who was never accused of rape in the first place.

I happen to think you are scum for making the suggestion. Isn't this situation bad enough without you making careless, disgusting and libelous remarks?

I guess the question answers itself.

My god, you ARE an attorney, aren't you? :lol: :roll:

AZ, could you please stop posting your continuous nonsense. You post no information and virtually nothing of substance. Your posts are mucking up the board. By the way, 75 was absolutely right in what he is saying.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Who said anything about Jordan Johnson? YOU. :roll:

Correct: My comment: "6) one of them has not involved any charges brought against the athlete" for rape or anything else for that matter.

Your comment: "You're the one trying to minimize their rapes."

My comment was true.

Since my comments referred specifically to Beau Donaldson and Jordan Johnson, and also specifically distinguished between the two, your comment stands in marked contrast by incorporating both of them as having committed "rapes." Not even "alleged" rapes. You've already got both of them sentenced. Nice guy. From all us "internet lawyers," thanks for the presumption of innocence, particularly for the athlete who was never accused of rape in the first place.

I happen to think you are scum for making the suggestion. Isn't this situation bad enough without you making careless, disgusting and libelous remarks?

I guess the question answers itself.

My god, you ARE an attorney, aren't you? :lol: :roll:

AZ, could you please stop posting your continuous nonsense. You post no information and virtually nothing of substance. Your posts are mucking up the board. By the way, 75 was absolutely right in what he is saying.

What, do you have an automatic google alert set for whenever anyone uses the word "attorney" on egriz so you can come rushing to their defense?

I'll make you a deal: YOU stop posting and I'll stop posting. :thumb:

And since we know THAT will never happen, I'll exercise my right of free speech and keep defending the truth...you just keep defending the indefensible and we'll all know just where we stand. :thumb:

 

[UMGriz75]

"You're the one trying to minimize their rapes."
....
My god, you ARE an attorney, aren't you? :lol: :roll:

I've been on the faculty at the University of Montana for over 30 years. Unlike you, I have some sense of what it means when you declare that someone is trying "to minimize their rapes," when in fact, there was no such accusation in the first place.

I also understand the damage it does to young people to have some complete idiot destroy their reputations by playing "internet judge," making determinations of guilt, absolute declarations of it when the crime has not even been alleged, and the power of the internet and of those careless remarks to haunt those young people for the rest of their lives.

Do you have shame, or is it subordinate to trying to appear clever?

 

[PlayerRep]

Nice call on the "idiot" reference to AZ, 75. I've been saying that for years. At least, AZ finally got rid of his pro-rape avatar.