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Fritz tweets; Pflu expects JJ to remain at UM

mcg said:
My intent was not call out specific players, but to agree that there are an unknown number of players who got their HC and AD fired by their off field behavior. I guess they have to live with that.

No, there's an AD and HC who didn't hold players accountable for their actions. I don't feel sorry for Pflu or O'Day. They made some decisions that helped put the program in this situation. Engstrom is political putz who should go! He has the spine of a worm. There has to be better administrators out there than this jerk! I feel sorry for the student/athletes who are innocent. II feel sorry for the humiliation of the women being raked thru the coals. BTW, Jordy hasn't been charged with a thing, so don't assume he's guilty. The coach and AD need to live with this too! And the media is not much better.
 
Growler1 said:
AllWeatherFan said:
I thought it was interesting that the Missoulian's "list of current legal problems" went all the way back to 2007. Nothing like padding the stats.

Is it not ironic that it is difficult to find many problems before 2007? Gee, is it not a coincidence that Big Game Bob was named head coach about that same time? :?

I love it how you use Alphas material all the time. Big Game Bob and Runs to sniff jocks were both created by alpha but now used by you. I wouldn't think you would use the material of the guy who ran you out of the back door of the Mo Club and videoed you picking your ass at practice :lol:
 
My new knowledge of how the whole process went down makes me want to puke. I have zero respect for the man that is supposed to be running this university, and if I was JJ and am innocent I would stay the course, play football, and kindly give the NC trophy to Engstrom as a "gesture" of appreciation. And I am not necessarily talking about making use of it in his office, because hopefully he won't have an office when JJ wins the NC.
 
Hammer said:
Growler1 said:
AllWeatherFan said:
I thought it was interesting that the Missoulian's "list of current legal problems" went all the way back to 2007. Nothing like padding the stats.

Is it not ironic that it is difficult to find many problems before 2007? Gee, is it not a coincidence that Big Game Bob was named head coach about that same time? :?

I love it how you use Alphas material all the time. Big Game Bob and Runs to sniff jocks were both created by alpha but now used by you. I wouldn't think you would use the material of the guy who ran you out of the back door of the Mo Club and videoed you picking your ass at practice :lol:

Can you stow being a jerk for a few days? I never said those terms were mine, I just like 'em and use. Does he have a trademark on them. You should stop worrying so much about my relationship with Alpha. You are becoming obsessive over me like Jizzpacker1. May wanna try try the same meds he is on, they might help.
 
G&B said:
maroonandsilver said:
If I were JJ, knowing that my behavior contributed to the firing of two individuals, I would not return.

Do we know for a fact that he did it???? If he did it then yes. If not people like you need to STFU.

I think we can all agree that its not weather or not you're guilty, but the severity of the accusation.
 
Griz Growler said:
G&B said:
maroonandsilver said:
If I were JJ, knowing that my behavior contributed to the firing of two individuals, I would not return.

Do we know for a fact that he did it???? If he did it then yes. If not people like you need to STFU.

I think we can all agree that its not weather or not you're guilty, but the severity of the accusation.

That right any accusation does mean your are guilty. Especially a serious accusation. Punishment to be doled out by the mob immediately.
 
Tokyogriz said:
Griz Growler said:
G&B said:
maroonandsilver said:
If I were JJ, knowing that my behavior contributed to the firing of two individuals, I would not return.

Do we know for a fact that he did it???? If he did it then yes. If not people like you need to STFU.

I think we can all agree that its not weather or not you're guilty, but the severity of the accusation.

That right any accusation does mean your are guilty. Especially a serious accusation. Punishment to be doled out by the mob immediately.
Academics like Engstrom have different standards, and an intrinsic difficulty with the cultural idealism of athletics, honor, loyalty and any sense of fairness outside of a "PC" version of it, which does not, in their world, ever apply to coaches and athletes.

Look at the Duke LaCrosse athletes. Accused, tried and convicted by the "Faculty of 88," the University President AND the District Attorney. Hell, they were athletes. Everyone knows ...
 
Are you sure you want to bring up DUKE? Its text book for how a University should react. The entire team was suspended. Not for the alleged rapes though those players were suspended until the cases were decided. The party was enough by itself. They forfeited 2 games for the under age drinking alone. The strippers were another matter. In any event the accused players were one matter everything else was another. The loudest voice was a DA who also answered for his actions. Just exactly how has the athletic department here reacted. I never did hear how a "second chance" player here was disciplined for an assault conviction shortly after arriving back on campus two other players were disciplined after their guilty pleas.. . . . .


You are all correct there was a different standard here. One for meaningless regular season games, one for starters, one for play off games and one for everyone else. Read up on Duke (their athletic honor code is part of the basis fo ours:

http://today.duke.edu/showcase/lacrosseincident/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Umista said:
That bastard Pat Williams is quoted as stating "some Griz players did some horrific things" in todays Missoulian rag. Another slug stating guilty as reported in the news! Board of regents new appointee.


Yes, I'd guess I am only half drunk......far more than the .08 however. This crap makes one drink.


Put a sock on it, Pat's comment was accurate "some players did some horrific things"

and like Growler1 said, sober up before you start pounding the key board.
 
NorthEndZoneDan said:
Umista said:
That bastard Pat Williams is quoted as stating "some Griz players did some horrific things" in todays Missoulian rag. Another slug stating guilty as reported in the news! Board of regents new appointee.


Yes, I'd guess I am only half drunk......far more than the .08 however. This crap makes one drink.


Put a sock on it, Pat's comment was accurate "some players did some horrific things"

and like Growler1 said, sober up before you start pounding the key board.


No, Pat Williams comment "some players did some horrific things" was completely out of line. Especially since he now sits on the Board of Regents.

One player is KNOWN to have commited a rape. So either Williams accessed some private police reports, which would be illegal, or Williams made his comment based solely on the allegations made. Perhaps dozens of players have done horrific things, perhaps one has. Yet either way, at this point Pat Williams damn sure should not have made his comment.

P.S. My comment made without alcohol. Though I have to wonder about Pat's.
:ugeek:
 
I thought it was odd when Pat was appointed to the BOR. But he can make hard decisions and take the heat, as well. Perhaps it is no coincidence. I have never believed this was a rash decision. It is time to support the university, support the team, and move on.
 
When it comes to Pat Williams and his dumb statement and my drunk statement about it, what does my drinking have anything to do with that stupid statement made by pity Pat? For you guys jumping on the players.......just who is guilty of a horrific crime?
 
goatcreekgriz said:
I thought it was odd when Pat was appointed to the BOR. But he can make hard decisions and take the heat, as well. Perhaps it is no coincidence. I have never believed this was a rash decision. It is time to support the university, support the team, and move on.

Re' Pat Williams: What would you expect from a liberal, progressive, left-wing, Democrat...oh, never mind!
 
tnt said:
Are you sure you want to bring up DUKE? Its text book for how a University should react. The entire team was suspended. Not for the alleged rapes though those players were suspended until the cases were decided. The party was enough by itself. They forfeited 2 games for the under age drinking alone. The strippers were another matter. In any event the accused players were one matter everything else was another. The loudest voice was a DA who also answered for his actions. Just exactly how has the athletic department here reacted. I never did hear how a "second chance" player here was disciplined for an assault conviction shortly after arriving back on campus two other players were disciplined after their guilty pleas.. . . . .

You are all correct there was a different standard here. One for meaningless regular season games, one for starters, one for play off games and one for everyone else. Read up on Duke (their athletic honor code is part of the basis fo ours:

http://today.duke.edu/showcase/lacrosseincident/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The link is to Duke's PR explanation; a complete re-write of history. Among other things, it leaves out the University President's declaration that the boys were "guilty until proven innocent," and the fact that he was silent when demonstrators on campus paraded with signs demanding that the boys be "castrated" hardly suggests that the case was about "underage drinking."

The more accurate view is in Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson's "Until Proven Innocent: Political Correctness and the Shameful Injustices of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case."

There, it tells the story of a college president more than willing to "assume the worst" about his athletes, lead the lynch mob, feed the fire, and who ultimately did far more damage to Duke than the original allegations. Duke has since had significant declines in alumni financial support, and drops in applications.

Here, a college president tipped off a serial rapist who was from a culture that does not view the crime as a crime, allowed him and his cohorts here without any measurable extra care because of the cultural "difference of opinion," and then practically bought him a plane ticket to escape the charges to ensure that NOBODY got punished, especially the perpetrator(s).

Were there policies put in place to ensure that Muslim students had greater supervision because of their cultural backgrounds, in particular, of a legal system that punishes the raped woman? Of course not. Nothing was done.

Engstrom's actions were designed to ensure that NOBODY got punished. That's a scandal, a real one.

How to avoid the blowback? Blow up the athletic department by manufacturing as big a scandal as he could think of, all in the name of not doing effectively what that college president had just failed to do on something of an outrageous scale, blaming two athletes for having private lives where, in the privacy of their own homes, relationships get complicated sometimes and having NOTHING to do with anything that the AD or the coach could possibly anticipate or prevent.

Exactly what "Policy" is designed to prevent athletes from having girlfriends? O'day and Pflu should have done "what" to the athletes compared to what Engstrom did for a far more egregious situation?

The bigger scandal was the Saudi student and similar incidents and Engstrom's "PC" handling of those. Those were actual alleged rapes, included violence, and involved UM student females.

But, who'se thinking of that now? The strategy worked.
 
UMGriz75 said:
Engstrom's actions were designed to ensure that NOBODY got punished. That's a scandal, a real one.

How to avoid the blowback? Blow up the athletic department by manufacturing as big a scandal as he could think of, all in the name of not doing effectively what that college president had just failed to do on something of an outrageous scale, blaming two athletes for having private lives where, in the privacy of their own homes, relationships get complicated sometimes and having NOTHING to do with anything that the AD or the coach could possibly anticipate or prevent.

Exactly what "Policy" is designed to prevent athletes from having girlfriends? O'day and Pflu should have done "what" to the athletes compared to what Engstrom did for a far more egregious situation?

The bigger scandal was the Saudi student and similar incidents and Engstrom's "PC" handling of those. Those were actual alleged rapes, included violence, and involved UM student females.

But, who'se thinking of that now? The strategy worked.

Oh, good Lord. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah, I'm SURE Engstrom fired O'Day and Pflu to try to divert attention from allowing the foreigner to skip town without being held accountable for his misdeeds.

Did Engstrom "manufacture" Donaldson's charges? Did he "manufacture" Johnson's charges? What about Maus? Montana? Johnson? Kemp? Duncan? Atkins? And that's all within the past 12 months. Need I go on? You conspiracy theorists really need to take off the tinfoil hat and join the real (read: SANE) world. Certain elements of this program were out of control---if even HALF of those result in actual charges Pflu should have been gone a long time ago.
 
What Engstrom has done is what needed to be done. Its ugly but at least there is no media circus...

Colleges and universities have fairly extensive legal authority to regulate non-academic activities and behavior of student-athletes, both on and off campus. This authority rests on the legal premise that participation in athletics is a privilege, not a right, and that the student-athlete must comply with the institution’s rules in order to have access to that privilege. The current legal standard allows:

· Rules that are reasonably (rationally) relevant to the lawful (legitimate) missions, processes and functions of the institution;

· Punishment if conduct impairs, interferes with or obstructs the missions, processes and functions of the institution;

· Superior ethical and moral behavior standards for student-athletes; the rules are not limited to criminal law standards nor to that of the student body in general

· Application of conduct rules to student-athlete behavior both on and off campus.


The basic rules apply to both public and private institutions. Fairness begins with student-athletes knowing what behavior is expected, so a written Student-Athlete Code of Conduct for the entire athletics program is recommended in addition to the Code of Conduct for the general student body.

The investigation into the athletics culture at Duke University after the lacrosse party scandal found that student-athletes perceived the Duke Community Standard (the general student body Code of Conduct) as an academic standard, not something that applied to their behavior. Given the increased scrutiny placed on student-athlete conduct, it is important that athletics departments avoid such confusion and make abundantly clear the behavioral expectations it places on its student-athletes. At least that's what should happen.

The Universtity of Montana under Jim O'day, pretty much ignored a written policy because they sought flexibility in dealing with each student-athlete’s situation. However, student-athletes do not perceive conduct policies instituted on a case by case basis as fair, especially if coaches have an obvious conflict of interest when required to discipline student-athletes if the punishment will hurt the team performance, nor does the public. The failure to have a uniform policy, and to enforce the policy evenly for all student-athletes, is one of the easiest ways to open up the institution to litigation, "bad Press, and situations that generally BLOW UP. A written policy provides clearer notice of behavioral expectations and creates consistent treatment of all athletic teams within the department.

While things may not of blown up here leading to extreme actions in all parts (like Duke,) We came pretty darn close. The point is Duke survived. (as did their fund raising)

As far as the Saudi Student. I like to have seen him hung out to Dry, but I'm not sure that having a trial of international consequences, getting a verdict, having a young woman who was hesitant to come forward in the first place testify on an international stage, and ultimately sending a forward Saudi to prison would have been the best thing for the community or the University. In any even the guy was being was reported the same day and was under observation by the City police Department before he fled. He could have been arrested but wasn't because NO CHARGES were filed at the time.

She brought the matter to University officials (not the police) who have a procedure they must follow. Engstrom followed it, including notifying the campus at large. If we don't like it then it needs changed.

Frankly there is a down side. Just one example: A coach has a report of a minor on his team drinking. With a changed policy he would be obligated to call the police to have him ticketed. Its Level II violation. Hes out after his second. Now I realize there is NO underage drinking on our teams based on the strict policy that no athlete can consume alcohol during a game, but be careful what you wish for.....
 
AZGrizFan said:
Did he "manufacture" Johnson's charges?
Well. somebody is manufacturing charges. Johnson hasn't been charged with anything.

Isn't it interesting how mobs and the mob mentality work?

And equating any of these charges with a serial, violent rapist is really, I think, disgusting.
 
UMGriz75 said:
AZGrizFan said:
Did he "manufacture" Johnson's charges?
Well. somebody is manufacturing charges. Johnson hasn't been charged with anything.

Isn't it interesting how mobs work?

And equating any of these charges with a serial, violent rapist is really, I think, disgusting.

I am not commenting on JJ as he has not been charged with anything.

I would think that a woman finds no comfort in finding out she was raped by an aquantance as opposed to a serial rapist? I am not sure what you are getting at. If you are talking about tasing and underage drinking, then yes, they do not equate with a serial rapist. However, I doubt Donaldson's victim feels any better than the two saudi victims.
 
UMGriz75 said:
AZGrizFan said:
Did he "manufacture" Johnson's charges?
Well. somebody is manufacturing charges. Johnson hasn't been charged with anything.

Isn't it interesting how mobs work?

And equating any of these charges with a serial, violent rapist is really, I think, disgusting.

And justifying these behaviors by attempting to classify degrees of rape is equally disgusting.
 
AZGrizFan said:
UMGriz75 said:
AZGrizFan said:
Did he "manufacture" Johnson's charges?
Well. somebody is manufacturing charges. Johnson hasn't been charged with anything.

Isn't it interesting how mobs work?

And equating any of these charges with a serial, violent rapist is really, I think, disgusting.

And justifying these behaviors by attempting to classify degrees of rape is equally disgusting.
Yeah, OK violent rape by a serial rapist is just the same ... if he uses a knife, it's just the same, if he beats the hell out of her, it's just the same. Just the same. Just the same.

The distinction here, in any case, is precisely the one made by the Administration which chose to classify the seriousness of the rape, and the message it wishes to send to the victims and to potential victims at UM, by the national origin of the rapist ... and to justify its behavior regarding a particularly heinous and violent sexual offense by saying, "it's OK," then under circumstances not nearly so heinous, firing a coach and an AD saying "it's not OK."
 

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