Former AD O'Day: "We probably should have moved up"

[mthoopsfan]

The reason why UM would have gotten in the MWC...

After Utah, TCU and BYU withdrew from the MWC then Boise State and San Diego announced they were also leaving the MWC to join the Big East. Then the Big East lost teams and decided to be the non-football conference they are today. While it looked like Boise and San Diego State were gone, the MWC added Utah State and San Jose State. Then the football schools separated from the Big East, Boise and San Diego came back to the MWC. (Without every playing a game in the Big East). It is widely believed, that UM was seen as more attractive than San Jose State and would have gotten in over San Jose State.

The MWC had already added Fresno State, Hawaii (football only), Nevada Reno, along with Boise earlier. The MWC was killing off the WAC. UM would have gotten in over San Jose, I am pretty sure of it. No one has ever been thrilled about San Jose State in the MWC, especially San Diego State and Fresno State.

Thanks for your explanation, but, as usual, I don't believe you. "On May 2, 2012, San Jose State and Utah State agreed to join the conference for the 2013–14 academic year."

Montana talked to the WAC in 2012, according to the SI article. There was no MW invitation for UM before May 2, 2012, when San Jose committed to the MW. The SI article I linked was dated Aug. 21, 2012. The article said the Big Sky/WAC had talked in recent weeks, and already fallen apart. So, UM must have been taking to the WAC in about July 2012, or early August. How in the heck would UM have joined the WAC after August 2012, and then magically replaced San Jose St, which had joined the MW in May 2012, several months earlier. Sorry, but the timing doesn't work.

Also, let's see your source for your assertion that the MW preferred UM over San Jose St. I was talking frequently to O'Day in 2012, and following the move-up stuff closely. I recall no mention of the MW.

I recall that the UM study showed UM needed over an additional $5 million per year to move up, and that the best scenario had UM adding only $3 million per year in a move-up.

Hey, Navy, in light of the above timing, how would UM have gotten into the MW instead of San Jose? The above timing shows that
San Jose was already joining the MW before UM started talking to the WAC.

 

[NavyBlue]

I thought UM was talking to the WAC in 2010.
https://seattle.sbnation.com/seattle-ncaab/2010/11/11/1808120/wac-expansion-montanas-choice-to-stay-in-big-sky-leaves-opening-for

USU and SJSU received MWC invitations on May 2, 2012, and joined for the 2013-14 academic year.

My thought is if UM had already started the process of going FBS , or announced their intent to in 2010, it is MY OPINION they would have been invited over SJSU.

MY opinion. You must be player rep using a new handle. I'm done, I have things to do today.

 

[mthoopsfan]

I thought UM was talking to the WAC in 2010.
https://seattle.sbnation.com/seattle-ncaab/2010/11/11/1808120/wac-expansion-montanas-choice-to-stay-in-big-sky-leaves-opening-for

USU and SJSU received MWC invitations on May 2, 2012, and joined for the 2013-14 academic year.

My thought is if UM had already started the process of going FBS , or announced their intent to in 2010, it is MY OPINION they would have been invited over SJSU.

MY opinion. You must be player rep using a new handle. I'm done, I have things to do today.

Got it. Thx.

Here's an article (3/26/11) on UM's move-up feasibility study (from summer 2010). Study said UM would need $4.7 million extra in its budget to move up (annually, I believe), and would need to have its annual budget increased by $6.5 million in 5 years. Additional suggested facilities would cost $30.6 million. Move up was not feasible.

"WAC Commissioner Karl Benson, UM athletic director Jim O'Day and UM President Royce Engstrom said Wednesday that discussions are not currently taking place.

"We are not having discussions," Engstrom said. "As far as I can see, there's no real story there. I won't say I haven't heard from (Benson), but we're not having any discussions."

Engstrom had sound reasoning for keeping the Grizzlies where they are: Many improvements need to be made for the Griz to stay ahead of the pack in the FCS."

https://missoulian.com/college/griz/university-of-montana-athletics-study-move-to-fbs-would-cost-millions/article_b87e6958-5778-11e0-9bd2-001cc4c002e0.html

 

[NavyBlue]

Interesting. Thanks. Just a question, how many of the facilities thought to be needed then are now in place, or are in process?

I know an indoor practice facility is in the works. My understanding is the training facilities and locker rooms are good enough now.

The stadium would probably be in the top half of the conference. Season ticket sales are already more that probably half the teams in the MWC now.

In terms of facilities what would the Griz be lacking to be competitive today? Just wondering.

Thanks, in advance.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Interesting. Thanks. Just a question, how many of the facilities thought to be needed then are now in place, or are in process?

I know an indoor practice facility is in the works. My understanding is the training facilities and locker rooms are good enough now.

The stadium would probably be in the top half of the conference. Season ticket sales are already more that probably half the teams in the MWC now.

In terms of facilities what would the Griz be lacking to be competitive today? Just wondering.

Thanks, in advance.

UM now has an academic facility, the nice Performance Center, and new football and basketball locker rooms. Indoor facility in the works. Construction to start in the next year. These are the improvements that Engstrom said would be necessary for UM to keep ahead of the curve in FCS, as well as what the study said was necessary for moving up.

I don't know what UM would be lacking now in terms of facilities. What UM doesn't have is enough money, and enough increased revenue, to fund the cost of moving up and staying up. From UM's side, I doubt that anything has changed in that regard in the last decade, except that costs have gone up. Note that one of "negative" things in analyzing a move up for UM, is that UM was/is virtually maxed out, in terms of tickets sales/attendance and ticket prices. Most schools moving up get significant additional revenue from increased attendance and ticket prices when they move up. While I don't know, I doubt that many local businesses, who are or could be donors and sponsors, would get too excited by moving up. They already get their nice revenue from UM's good attendance and home playoff games. I would think they wouldn't like the loss of playoff game revenue/traffic. At this point, I would think they are supporting UM football, to help UM get back to having multiple home playoff games every year.

I like the lesser FCS level. It's more in line with what I think college sports should be. I played in and like the Ivy model. I don't like big time FBS athletics overshadowing academics. I love the playoffs. Absolutely love when UM is in the hunt. On the other hand, if the MW came looking, and the upside in revenue could fund the move up, then, of course, it should be looked at. I wouldn't anticipate that the current UM or MSU presidents would be overly excited about moving up, nor would the current governor. I don't envision FCS falling apart, but, if it was, then that would be another important factor.

 

[NavyBlue]

Thank you. I appreciate the response. I do agree with you about big time FBS athletics overshadowing academics not being a good thing. I just think that with the way things are going the Group of 5 leagues like the MWC will be the new de facto FCS. Time will tell if I am right about that.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Thank you. I appreciate the response. I do agree with you about big time FBS athletics overshadowing academics not being a good thing. I just think that with the way things are going the Group of 5 leagues like the MWC will be the new de facto FCS. Time will tell if I am right about that.

If the Group of 5 does an FCS style of playoffs, then I'm good with that.

 

[NavyBlue]

I am okay with it too. I think it will happen once the big boys separate from the Group of 5.

 

[Pounder]

Interesting. Thanks. Just a question, how many of the facilities thought to be needed then are now in place, or are in process?

I know an indoor practice facility is in the works. My understanding is the training facilities and locker rooms are good enough now.

The stadium would probably be in the top half of the conference. Season ticket sales are already more that probably half the teams in the MWC now.

In terms of facilities what would the Griz be lacking to be competitive today? Just wondering.

Thanks, in advance.

As an outside observer, I doubt facilities are the big problem. It’s market size and TV/broadcast number of eyeballs… as long as we’re talking about FBS and FCS staying the same.

Obviously, that qualifier is less and less certain for every tick of the clock.

 

[kemajic]

MY opinion. You must be player rep using a new handle.

Yup

 

[AZGrizFan]

Interesting. Thanks. Just a question, how many of the facilities thought to be needed then are now in place, or are in process?

I know an indoor practice facility is in the works. My understanding is the training facilities and locker rooms are good enough now.

The stadium would probably be in the top half of the conference. Season ticket sales are already more that probably half the teams in the MWC now.

In terms of facilities what would the Griz be lacking to be competitive today? Just wondering.

Thanks, in advance.

As an outside observer, I doubt facilities are the big problem. It’s market size and TV/broadcast number of eyeballs… as long as we’re talking about FBS and FCS staying the same.

Obviously, that qualifier is less and less certain for every tick of the clock.

I wonder if that ‘market size’ considers the vast # of Griz fans across the country who watch each/every telecast?

 

[mthoopsfan]

MY opinion. You must be player rep using a new handle.

Yup

Nope. Green26.

 

[kemajic]

Yup

Nope. Green26.

Yup

 

[Pounder]

As an outside observer, I doubt facilities are the big problem. It’s market size and TV/broadcast number of eyeballs… as long as we’re talking about FBS and FCS staying the same.

Obviously, that qualifier is less and less certain for every tick of the clock.

I wonder if that ‘market size’ considers the vast # of Griz fans across the country who watch each/every telecast?

Judging from who the Big 12 did and did not add after Oklahoma and Texas announced their departure, probably not. They went for “potential” more often than not.

You’d also think FBS conferences might be knocking at the door of North Dakota State, but nada.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

I wonder if that ‘market size’ considers the vast # of Griz fans across the country who watch each/every telecast?

Judging from who the Big 12 did and did not add after Oklahoma and Texas announced their departure, probably not. They went for “potential” more often than not.

You’d also think FBS conferences might be knocking at the door of North Dakota State, but nada.

They have to build a stadium that seats more than the 18k their shed holds before they’ll ever be considered. Didn’t they average less than MSU this year? I could very well be wrong on that.

 

[Pounder]

Judging from who the Big 12 did and did not add after Oklahoma and Texas announced their departure, probably not. They went for “potential” more often than not.

You’d also think FBS conferences might be knocking at the door of North Dakota State, but nada.

They have to build a stadium that seats more than the 18k their shed holds before they’ll ever be considered. Didn’t they average less than MSU this year? I could very well be wrong on that.

Generally a fair point, except these standards are likely among the things being reconsidered as the NCAA transforms to somewhat more divisional self-governance. And if the P5 break away, maybe a lot of bets are off.

But TV runs sports.

 

[SACCAT66]

They have to build a stadium that seats more than the 18k their shed holds before they’ll ever be considered. Didn’t they average less than MSU this year? I could very well be wrong on that.

Generally a fair point, except these standards are likely among the things being reconsidered as the NCAA transforms to somewhat more divisional self-governance. And if the P5 break away, maybe a lot of bets are off.

But TV runs sports.

Let's look at Wyoming as an example of the level of play I would expect MSU and UM to compete with in the FBS for the 1st 5 years. (They are the closest). There lowest paid assistant in 2021 made $68K a year... with the overall assistant pay at just under 2 Million per year. Head Coach is at $1.7 Million.. Add that to the rise in scholarship money needed to be paid out because you can't give partials at FBS level... With no partial Scholarships, a conservative guess would be you also lose 1/4 of your montana kids on the team because you can't give them a partial to get them here. NOW you have to raise ticket prices to pay for all these coaches and Out of State kids to come here, and the BEST you can hope for is to beat MSU on the last week of the season so you can get a bowl game in San Diego against Houston or San Diego State. Yes, the games against CSU or Reno would be better games than Northern Colorado or Portland State... There are plus and minuses for both staying and leaving. The main question is, can the TV money pay for all the other added expenses...

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Generally a fair point, except these standards are likely among the things being reconsidered as the NCAA transforms to somewhat more divisional self-governance. And if the P5 break away, maybe a lot of bets are off.

But TV runs sports.

Let's look at Wyoming as an example of the level of play I would expect MSU and UM to compete with in the FBS for the 1st 5 years. (They are the closest). There lowest paid assistant in 2021 made $68K a year... with the overall assistant pay at just under 2 Million per year. Head Coach is at $1.7 Million.. Add that to the rise in scholarship money needed to be paid out because you can't give partials at FBS level... With no partial Scholarships, a conservative guess would be you also lose 1/4 of your montana kids on the team because you can't give them a partial to get them here. NOW you have to raise ticket prices to pay for all these coaches and Out of State kids to come here, and the BEST you can hope for is to beat MSU on the last week of the season so you can get a bowl game in San Diego against Houston or San Diego State. Yes, the games against CSU or Reno would be better games than Northern Colorado or Portland State... There are plus and minuses for both staying and leaving. The main question is, can the TV money pay for all the other added expenses...

The good news for fans who want to remain FCS until only Lamar and St. Francis remain is that the MSU Fighting Anchors will always be there to block any FBS aspirations. Is it true that the original title of “Stand Up and Cheer” (which is already a lame name) was “Cower With a Wet Blanket”?

Honestly, it’s like being ready to go to Six Flags but you can’t because lil’ Timmy refuses to tie his fucking shoes.

 

[SACCAT66]

Let's look at Wyoming as an example of the level of play I would expect MSU and UM to compete with in the FBS for the 1st 5 years. (They are the closest). There lowest paid assistant in 2021 made $68K a year... with the overall assistant pay at just under 2 Million per year. Head Coach is at $1.7 Million.. Add that to the rise in scholarship money needed to be paid out because you can't give partials at FBS level... With no partial Scholarships, a conservative guess would be you also lose 1/4 of your montana kids on the team because you can't give them a partial to get them here. NOW you have to raise ticket prices to pay for all these coaches and Out of State kids to come here, and the BEST you can hope for is to beat MSU on the last week of the season so you can get a bowl game in San Diego against Houston or San Diego State. Yes, the games against CSU or Reno would be better games than Northern Colorado or Portland State... There are plus and minuses for both staying and leaving. The main question is, can the TV money pay for all the other added expenses...

The good news for fans who want to remain FCS until only Lamar and St. Francis remain is that the MSU Fighting Anchors will always be there to block any FBS aspirations. Is it true that the original title of “Stand Up and Cheer” (which is already a lame name) was “Cower With a Wet Blanket”?

Honestly, it’s like being ready to go to Six Flags but you can’t because lil’ Timmy refuses to tie his f###[#] shoes.

Didn't say I wanted them to stay, just pointing out what may be holding it up.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

The good news for fans who want to remain FCS until only Lamar and St. Francis remain is that the MSU Fighting Anchors will always be there to block any FBS aspirations. Is it true that the original title of “Stand Up and Cheer” (which is already a lame name) was “Cower With a Wet Blanket”?

Honestly, it’s like being ready to go to Six Flags but you can’t because lil’ Timmy refuses to tie his f###[#] shoes.

Didn't say I wanted them to stay, just pointing out what may be holding it up.

I know you would make good decisions. I'm just pointing out what has held it up in the past.