Football Team's letter to Griz Nation

[Bay Area Cat]

That said, I am also aware of the concept of many private organizations/employers/etc. punishing or firing people within those entities for conduct they didn't approve of. Very few of those situations involve a criminal conviction in a court of law.

The University of Montana is a part of the Montana State goverment not a private organization. They dont get the luxury of selective punishments you would like to see.

Yes, they do. Of course they do. Countless people have been fired or expelled from branches of the university system where no criminal convictions took place. There are absolutely no rules of any kind that say that people can't be removed from university-related jobs or organizations without a criminal conviction. I bet each of us could name dozens of examples just off the top of our head.

MSU kicked off several players this year for "violating team rules." None of those players were convicted of any crimes. If you would like to make a constitutional plea on their behalf, I'm sure they would appreciate it, but I'm not sure it's going to do them any good.

 

[montanaguy]

Come hell or high water, I'm fired up for next season. I will be there for these guys more than ever. This letter is obviously written with latent passion that can't be expressed in words. Don't pick apart the words, please; lift up hope for the burning passion of young men who have their future in front of them. I hope that we see a group of players, a team, who come out with fire in their belly next fall. Yeah, I know it's a tired old locker room cliche, a wanna be movie script...but When The Going Gets Tough................

 

[Bear Axed]

Just to clear up a misconception that seems to be out there.................

That said, I am also aware of ..........?

Shejustkeepslecturingaslongasyoukeepresponding :?






youverywellmayendupgettingyourknuckleswrappedwitharuler

 

[JBS]

Just to clear up a misconception that seems to be out there, I fully agree with the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" in our legal system.

That said, I am also aware of the concept of many private organizations/employers/etc. punishing or firing people within those entities for conduct they didn't approve of. Very few of those situations involve a criminal conviction in a court of law.

Can we all agree that the two concepts are not one and the same?

Assuming the answer is "yes," can we then please stop invoking the Constitution each time somebody makes any reference to punishment doled out within an organization?

No I can't agree with you. This an accusation of a major felony, a crime against a person, not some kind of code of conduct policy. The concepts are not the same. Your argument can be used for things like sexual harrasment, obscenity, public embarassment, dress codes, limitations on speech. No argument there. But everyone, whether involved with a public or private enterprise, has the right to an assumption of innocence when their entire future is on the line. You're wrong. Show me an enterprise who as you put it "doles out punishment" for someone only accused of rape, and I'll show you and enterprise that gets sued into the next century. Sorry that invoking the constitution offends you. Fundamental rights are not the same as the rights people only assume they have because government has limited themselves from passing laws, like freedom of speech. Rights of the accused are undeniable in every situation.

 

[bigskydrift]

Just to clear up a misconception that seems to be out there, I fully agree with the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" in our legal system.

That said, I am also aware of the concept of many private organizations/employers/etc. punishing or firing people within those entities for conduct they didn't approve of. Very few of those situations involve a criminal conviction in a court of law.

Can we all agree that the two concepts are not one and the same?

Assuming the answer is "yes," can we then please stop invoking the Constitution each time somebody makes any reference to punishment doled out within an organization?

No I can't agree with you. This an accusation of a major felony, a crime against a person, not some kind of code of conduct policy. The concepts are not the same. Your argument can be used for things like sexual harrasment, obscenity, public embarassment, dress codes, limitations on speech. No argument there. But everyone, whether involved with a public or private enterprise, has the right to an assumption of innocence when their entire future is on the line. You're wrong. Show me an enterprise who as you put it "doles out punishment" for someone only accused of rape, and I'll show you and enterprise that gets sued into the next century. Sorry that invoking the constitution offends you. Fundamental rights are not the same as the rights people only assume they have because government has limited themselves from passing laws, like freedom of speech. Rights of the accused are undeniable in every situation.

exactly....very well said. When people begin to forget our rights, is when we begin to lose them.

 

[Bay Area Cat]

What's kind of strange is that you guys are making very passionate arguments about specific cases, whereas I'm talking about broad concepts, and haven't voiced an opinion on any specific case.

But if you want to return to speaking to broad concepts ... OJ Simpson lost all of his legit jobs, despite the fact that he wasn't convicted of murder.

Are you making the argument that his employers violated his Constitutional rights when they canned him?

 

[62GRIZ]

Forgive the naysayers for they are mostly Scats. :roll: They should spend their time fine tuning their own program and cleaning up their own litter. They are overly obsessed with GRIZ business. We'll take care of our own - they should be out practicing football. They'll need all the practice they can fit in before next November - and it still won't be enough! Go GRIZ!!! :clap: :thumb:

 

[tgriz]

that was really cool! like many have said, i feel worse than anything for all the players who do it right and bust their ass. After all, it's THEIR team above all else and it just got turned upside down by the actions of a few.

Exactly. We may not like it; but these are still our kids and this is still our team. These kids are asking for our help, and I am sure as hell going to give it to them.

 

[JBS]

What's kind of strange is that you guys are making very passionate arguments about specific cases, whereas I'm talking about broad concepts, and haven't voiced an opinion on any specific case.

But if you want to return to speaking to broad concepts ... OJ Simpson lost all of his legit jobs, despite the fact that he wasn't convicted of murder.

Are you making the argument that his employers violated his Constitutional rights when they canned him?

No. He was charged though. My problem is what you said in the first thing I responded to about the days of being assumed innocent without a conviction being over at the UofM. Thats a very bad thing. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I can live with that. And I have been specific from the start and stated it when I said I was only referring to the rape allegations. Lets say this was about JJ being shitfaced at the foresters ball, being a drunken idiot, embarassing himself, etc.. with witnesses everywhere. That is a definite code of conduct issue and the kind of thing the university has every right to "dole out punishment" for. No argument with you there.

BTW, O.J actually had legit jobs? Was he a greens keeper?

Peace

 

[Grizzly Bill]

Thanks, guys, for being the designated adults. You know we've got your backs.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[George Ferguson]

I have no issue with people (Griz fan, Cat fan, women, politicos, ect) feeling like the team letter should have said this or shouldn't have said that, that's your problem and if the letter bothers you or offends you, then it is what it is. But the bottom line is, this letter came from the ACTUAL football team, not fans, not Engstrom, not whoever and it's THEIR team. They are the ones who wear the uniforms, play the games, bleed together, go through injuries together. And whether or not there is a shit-storm of controversy surrounding them and the program, whether or not some of their teammates have committed crimes or behaved in an immoral manner, as the Montana Grizzlies, they have the right to feel however they want to. They obviously love each other, their coach and Jim O'Day, as EVERY athlete at UM does from what I understand and they have the right to feel the way they do and express those feelings, no matter how badly some of you want otherwise. It does not matter whether you feel the letter was right or wrong, it's how they feel and they DESERVE the right to express that feeling just like every single person on here feels like they deserve the right to express whatever opinion they want on an almost minute-by-minute basis.

 

[FTG247365]

Really you think the football team wrote this letter? Talk about some BS, they make it sound as if it was only a couple of players that made all of this happen. Just look at how UM has handled everything in the past, lift rug and sweep, now the rug heaping pile of crap under it. For too long the AD and the University have looked the other way while all of this stuff has been going on. So to say that the player wrote this, really do you thing we are that stupid. Even if the players did have a say in what was written don't you think half of them would be hypocrite's, say one thing but do just the opposite. A change was needed, if the coach and AD allow this BS to happen then sure they should be fired. But they are only as good as the players they lead, so some blame goes on the players too. They have watch players push cops with little to no punishment, DUI's, etc. the list goes on. All I can say it about time that they started to clean house.

 

[Grisette]

This is a very impressive letter.

 

[EverettGriz]

Really you think the football team wrote this letter? Talk about some BS, they make it sound as if it was only a couple of players that made all of this happen. Just look at how UM has handled everything in the past, lift rug and sweep, now the rug heaping pile of crap under it. For too long the AD and the University have looked the other way while all of this stuff has been going on. So to say that the player wrote this, really do you thing we are that stupid. Even if the players did have a say in what was written don't you think half of them would be hypocrite's, say one thing but do just the opposite. A change was needed, if the coach and AD allow this BS to happen then sure they should be fired. But they are only as good as the players they lead, so some blame goes on the players too. They have watch players push cops with little to no punishment, DUI's, etc. the list goes on. All I can say it about time that they started to clean house.

I tried to read this.

Three times.


Would you consider posting again, in something resembling English this time?

 

[poorgriz]

Great work Griz Players. That was a well written, and classy letter. :clap:

This shows LEADERSHIP from the PLAYERS. this is what we need... the players play and they must hold each other ACCOUNTABLE, and support each other through hard times!



Now back to grinding toward the ultimate GOAL: A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

Actually... this isn't correct, and I think it's a fundamental problem that you are dealing with and that we had at MSU a few years ago. The ULTIMATE goal should be to field a football team that consists of 100% classy players... zero arrests and run ins with the law for said players' entire tenure at UM. The secondary goal should be to win the title.

 

[mtgrizrule]

Great work Griz Players. That was a well written, and classy letter. :clap:

This shows LEADERSHIP from the PLAYERS. this is what we need... the players play and they must hold each other ACCOUNTABLE, and support each other through hard times!



Now back to grinding toward the ultimate GOAL: A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

Actually... this isn't correct, and I think it's a fundamental problem that you are dealing with and that we had at MSU a few years ago. The ULTIMATE goal should be to field a football team that consists of 100% classy players... zero arrests and run ins with the law for said players' entire tenure at UM. The secondary goal should be to win the title.

ARGH, I hate it when a Cat fan says something good. Even worse, I agree with him. :thumb:

 

[Triwest]

Really you think the football team wrote this letter? Talk about some BS, they make it sound as if it was only a couple of players that made all of this happen. Just look at how UM has handled everything in the past, lift rug and sweep, now the rug heaping pile of crap under it. For too long the AD and the University have looked the other way while all of this stuff has been going on. So to say that the player wrote this, really do you thing we are that stupid. Even if the players did have a say in what was written don't you think half of them would be hypocrite's, say one thing but do just the opposite. A change was needed, if the coach and AD allow this BS to happen then sure they should be fired. But they are only as good as the players they lead, so some blame goes on the players too. They have watch players push cops with little to no punishment, DUI's, etc. the list goes on. All I can say it about time that they started to clean house.

I respect your opinion. Your post does not have to be perfectly written. But, as this is a board about a University program, an effort should be made to express your thoughts in a clear manner.

Now to answer a question that you stated in your ramble; I do not think that half the members of the team are hypocrites. In fact I know for a fact that most are not.

I agree with a later post that the ultimate goal should be to have 100% classy team members. Win with class and lose with class and show class on the field and off.

 

[Bay Area Cat]

My problem is what you said in the first thing I responded to about the days of being assumed innocent without a conviction being over at the UofM. Thats a very bad thing. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I can live with that.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think we actually even disagree. I think you misread my initial statement a bit too broadly. I agree, for instance, on your JJ argument. If there isn't enough evidence for charges to be filed AND the coaches don't feel that he actually did anything wrong, then he should be back on the team, IMO.

What my comment was speaking to were situations where it is obvious to the coaches that a player DID do something wrong, but the legal process either couldn't overcome the high bar to reach a conviction or the case was still in process. If we want to walk through specific instances, we can, but I doubt that's necessary (and it's not something I really want to do, as it would just make it look like I'm rubbing people's faces in it, which I don't want to do).

So it's truly a case by case instance. If there is no evidence that a player did anything wrong, then the player shouldn't be punished. However, there are many instances where it is obvious that a player DID do something wrong, even if they "got away with it" via the legal system, or the legal system is working so slowly that it hasn't convicted them yet.

At the end of the day, the coaches/AD/President are charged with having the judgment to determine whether or not a player screwed up -- they don't hand over full responsiblity for those decisions to the legal system. They can certainly leverage the information that comes from the legal system, but they don't simply defer all judgment to that system.

 

[Bear Axed]

so, where do all you pompass assed, holier than thou, kittie fans
stand on the possibilty of Trammel being re-instated?

 

[OptimusPrime]

so, where do all you pompass assed, holier than thou, kittie fans
stand on the possibilty of Trammel being re-instated?

Good to see you haven't lost your douchey assholeness! That would have been a real shame. :thumb:
He shouldn't be allowed back on, but that's just my holier than thou opinion.
Classless... arty: