Draining the lifeblood of the department (Move-up thread)

[druhag]

WHY do you automatically assume we'll suck? I just do NOT get it.... :roll:

Why do people assume we won't suck at some point in FCS?

I am not advocating moving up. I think we should prepare to move up, but not plan on it. That way we will have facilities if we need to move up, and these facilities will help keep us the class of FCS if we don't need to. Win-Win in my book.

But...I think the argument that attendance will suffer when we have consecutive .500 seasons is critically flawed because it works two ways. It sort of drives me nuts actually.

 

[AZGrizFan]

WHY do you automatically assume we'll suck? I just do NOT get it.... :roll:

Why do people assume we won't suck at some point in FCS?

I am not advocating moving up. I think we should prepare to move up, but not plan on it. That way we will have facilities if we need to move up, and these facilities will help keep us the class of FCS if we don't need to. Win-Win in my book.

But...I think the argument that attendance will suffer when we have consecutive .500 seasons is critically flawed because it works two ways. It sort of drives me nuts actually.

Agreed 100%. Using THAT as a reason NOT to move up is comical. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

Hey, that's good! I should patent that....

 

[get'em_griz]

The three-headed monster - bias, agenda and fear of change.

I'd argue 4-headed. You can toss in the "We're-little-ole-Montana-we're not-good/big/important/rich/whatever-enough" inferiority complex.

Is it that, or is it more: "We're big bad Montana and if we hover around .500 for a few years we won't have any fans because we think all Griz fans equate the success of the football team with their pride in the University and we are therefore better off playing OK Panhandle so we can continue to feel tough."

Do you think that attendance wouldn't drop if UM was around .500 for a few years, or even a bit over .500? I think it would drop significantly. UM's attendance has grown with the success of the team, and that success included both winning most games and going to and advancing in the playoffs. Attendance has also grown because the games and game-day atmosphere, at the stadium and in Missoula, are fun. There are alot of bandwagon fans. Bandwagon fans are fine, but most of them don't stick around without the continuance of the reasons they became fans continuing to exist. Also, my theory has been that some fans try to attend every, or almost every, home game, because of the importance of each game in winning the conference and making and getting seeded in the playoffs. Without the playoffs and without having a chance to contend for the conference championship in most years, I think some fans would be less likely to try to attend all games.

Show me one team in the FBS that wouldn't suffer falling attendance if the program had several .500 seasons in-a-row. Even the big ones would see attendance fall. Alabama? You bet. LSU? Yep. Ohio State? Yep. Oregon? Yep. It's not just limited to the Griz. Any team that hovers over .500 for several seasons is going to see falling attendance. And it will happen at the FCS level too.

 

[putter]

I agree about the attendance and I believe that Montana should stay on it's current path. Upgrade it's facilities for a potential move but not planning on it. My concern with the Griz program is that it draws from all over the state to get it's 25,000 fans and a lot of these fans are not close. The first few years will be good, regardless of record, because it is a move up and you would have new, FBS teams to go watch. After that will people drive 6 hours one way from Sidney to see a 4-8 or 3-9 team if the games are televised?

Look at Griz basketball. When I was in Jr. High and high school you could not fit another person in the fieldhouse with a shoehorn. Now they average, 2000?? people per game - non tournament? That won't pay the bills if it happens in football.-

 

[get'em_griz]

I agree about the attendance and I believe that Montana should stay on it's current path. Upgrade it's facilities for a potential move but not planning on it. My concern with the Griz program is that it draws from all over the state to get it's 25,000 fans and a lot of these fans are not close. The first few years will be good, regardless of record, because it is a move up and you would have new, FBS teams to go watch. After that will people drive 6 hours one way from Sidney to see a 4-8 or 3-9 team if the games are televised?

Look at Griz basketball. When I was in Jr. High and high school you could not fit another person in the fieldhouse with a shoehorn. Now they average, 2000?? people per game - non tournament? That won't pay the bills if it happens in football.-

Basketball should benefit from a move up to a better basketball conference. One reason attendance for basketball is so shady is due to playing teams nobody really cares for who aren't that great. The only team that draws any interest for the most part is Weber State, primarily because they are usually very good each year. The other team who draws fans is Montana State just because of the rivalry. A better conference for Montana basketball would be a positive for the program in many ways.

 

[garizzalies]

I used to be a flat-earther like PR because of the same lame-o reasons we keep hearing for the last 20 years. Then I took a step back, saw the bigger picture, and realized my personal preferences were quite selfish and equally as speculative.

Try for a moment to put these petty (mainly football-related) reasons aside and see the forest for the trees: a "major" university in MT would have such a greater impact on our entire state. Most people outside of MT still think we use covered wagons. More attention would lead to more programs, which would spill off campus into the rest of the state. If you're not growing, you're dying.

 

[horribilisfan8184]

You know, for most fans who desire to move up, it's not an "either/or" situation. I enjoy the playoffs. I would also enjoy a schedule playing teams in the MWC every weekend.

It ain't rocket science.

Would you also enjoy losing, not playing the Bobcats (or at least playing them less), never going to the playoffs, either not have a post-season game or having one in a place like Boise, having fewer home games, playing weekday games, having higher ticket prices, experiencing declining attendance, having far fewer MT kids on the roster, etc.?

PR, most of these myths have been beaten like a rented mule on this board, but it's to no avail, as the flat earthers have their fingers in their ears shouting LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!!!!! so they don't have to listen.

1) We could still play the Bobcats every year. 98% of Mid-level FBS teams play down once a year.
2) There WILL be a playoff system in the Little 5 in the next 5-7 years.
3) I'd rather have a post-season game in Boise than in Iowa, North Dakota, Ohio, Tennessee, etc., etc. or almost anywhere FCS teams reside. The vast majority of REAL talent moved up.
4) In a 12-game season we'd still have six home games. We're not Idaho.
5) Weekday games wouldn't be the end of the world. In12 games last season, Boise State played 1 Thursday night game and 2 Friday night games. NINE Saturday games.
6) Higher ticket prices? You can't have higher costs without higher ticket prices. People want something for nothing? Ya'll a bunch of democrats?
7) We're ALREADY experiencing declining attendance. Think that might have something to do with the quality of opponent we're bringing in? Nah.....couldn't be.
8) I really couldn't care less WHERE the players come from, but any Montana kids that have made an impact (or that we expect to) would have been good enough to start/play for most of the MWC teams. Biermann, Carps, Tripp, Coyle, Wags, Crittenden, Kidder, Peevey, Schye, etc. And maybe we KEEP guys in-state like Sims, Miller, Roderick, etc., and land guys like Brekke, Osweiler, etc. Besides, what good does it do to load the roster with Montana kids who never (except for washup time) see the field--even at THIS level? I looked up the roster for the 1995 championship year. 22 kids from Montana. That's an average of less than 6/year--but I don't hear people bitching that we didn't have enough Montana kids that year??

Great post.

And I presume that opposing counsel must have used the term "windmill chaser" in a winning argument against PR, because it's certainly become his -- more than mildly annoyingly, mind you -- phase of the week.

For $500 I'll loan him "propeller head" for use in the future....

 

[ordigger]

No need to move up because the lower FBS schools are drifting our way. Once the lower 5 FBS, and the upper 3-4 FCS combine, then we can worry about what conference is best for us. The Big 5 will never come calling so we dont have to worry about that.

The path we are on is righteous dudes. Party on!

 

[kemajic]

No need to move up because the lower FBS schools are drifting our way. Once the lower 5 FBS, and the upper 3-4 FCS combine, then we can worry about what conference is best for us. The Big 5 will never come calling so we dont have to worry about that.

The path we are on is righteous dudes. Party on!

More speculation, but it's reassuring if you're convinced we are on a path.

 

[PlayerRep]

PR, most of these myths have been beaten like a rented mule on this board, but it's to no avail, as the flat earthers have their fingers in their ears shouting LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!!!!! so they don't have to listen.

1) We could still play the Bobcats every year. 98% of Mid-level FBS teams play down once a year.
2) There WILL be a playoff system in the Little 5 in the next 5-7 years.
3) I'd rather have a post-season game in Boise than in Iowa, North Dakota, Ohio, Tennessee, etc., etc. or almost anywhere FCS teams reside. The vast majority of REAL talent moved up.
4) In a 12-game season we'd still have six home games. We're not Idaho.
5) Weekday games wouldn't be the end of the world. In12 games last season, Boise State played 1 Thursday night game and 2 Friday night games. NINE Saturday games.
6) Higher ticket prices? You can't have higher costs without higher ticket prices. People want something for nothing? Ya'll a bunch of democrats?
7) We're ALREADY experiencing declining attendance. Think that might have something to do with the quality of opponent we're bringing in? Nah.....couldn't be.
8) I really couldn't care less WHERE the players come from, but any Montana kids that have made an impact (or that we expect to) would have been good enough to start/play for most of the MWC teams. Biermann, Carps, Tripp, Coyle, Wags, Crittenden, Kidder, Peevey, Schye, etc. And maybe we KEEP guys in-state like Sims, Miller, Roderick, etc., and land guys like Brekke, Osweiler, etc. Besides, what good does it do to load the roster with Montana kids who never (except for washup time) see the field--even at THIS level? I looked up the roster for the 1995 championship year. 22 kids from Montana. That's an average of less than 6/year--but I don't hear people bitching that we didn't have enough Montana kids that year??

Great post.

And I presume that opposing counsel must have used the term "windmill chaser" in a winning argument against PR, because it's certainly become his -- more than mildly annoyingly, mind you -- phase of the week.

If people are going to refer to posters who believe UM should be at the FCS level as "flat earthers", then it only seems fair to refer to Windmill Chasers in return.

"Great post", even though virtually everything said in it is not accurate or not true.

PR, contradicting MY opinions with YOUR opinions doesn't make any of it any more or less true...and THAT is a fact.

The difference is that your opinions are just opinions and my opinions are facts. Ha. Actually, some of what I said is factually based, like no. 7 (and HavGriz showed that what you said was wrong). I like you as a poster, and you provide some good researched information, but you are too far away from Missoula and the games to have you fingers on the pulse of Griz football and Griz nation, in my view.

 

[PlayerRep]

I agree about the attendance and I believe that Montana should stay on it's current path. Upgrade it's facilities for a potential move but not planning on it. My concern with the Griz program is that it draws from all over the state to get it's 25,000 fans and a lot of these fans are not close. The first few years will be good, regardless of record, because it is a move up and you would have new, FBS teams to go watch. After that will people drive 6 hours one way from Sidney to see a 4-8 or 3-9 team if the games are televised?

Look at Griz basketball. When I was in Jr. High and high school you could not fit another person in the fieldhouse with a shoehorn. Now they average, 2000?? people per game - non tournament? That won't pay the bills if it happens in football.-

I pretty much agree, altho if things weren't going well in season no. 2, I think attendance would start to decline by mid-season. Jeez, I wouldn't even go to every home game in that scenario. Now, I play my work, travel and life schedule around home football games, so I don't miss any. If UM was losing, I wouldn't work so hard not to miss a game. I wouldn't drop my season tickets or quit going, but I'd miss some games.

 

[PlayerRep]

I'd argue 4-headed. You can toss in the "We're-little-ole-Montana-we're not-good/big/important/rich/whatever-enough" inferiority complex.

Is it that, or is it more: "We're big bad Montana and if we hover around .500 for a few years we won't have any fans because we think all Griz fans equate the success of the football team with their pride in the University and we are therefore better off playing OK Panhandle so we can continue to feel tough."

Do you think that attendance wouldn't drop if UM was around .500 for a few years, or even a bit over .500? I think it would drop significantly. UM's attendance has grown with the success of the team, and that success included both winning most games and going to and advancing in the playoffs. Attendance has also grown because the games and game-day atmosphere, at the stadium and in Missoula, are fun. There are alot of bandwagon fans. Bandwagon fans are fine, but most of them don't stick around without the continuance of the reasons they became fans continuing to exist. Also, my theory has been that some fans try to attend every, or almost every, home game, because of the importance of each game in winning the conference and making and getting seeded in the playoffs. Without the playoffs and without having a chance to contend for the conference championship in most years, I think some fans would be less likely to try to attend all games.

Show me one team in the FBS that wouldn't suffer falling attendance if the program had several .500 seasons in-a-row. Even the big ones would see attendance fall. Alabama? You bet. LSU? Yep. Ohio State? Yep. Oregon? Yep. It's not just limited to the Griz. Any team that hovers over .500 for several seasons is going to see falling attendance. And it will happen at the FCS level too.

Agreed. And it's not an FBS or FCS thing; it's a football thing. I think UM attendance would start to drop even if the team was a bit better than .500.

 

[grizcountry420]

Great post.

And I presume that opposing counsel must have used the term "windmill chaser" in a winning argument against PR, because it's certainly become his -- more than mildly annoyingly, mind you -- phase of the week.

If people are going to refer to posters who believe UM should be at the FCS level as "flat earthers", then it only seems fair to refer to Windmill Chasers in return.

"Great post", even though virtually everything said in it is not accurate or not true.

PR, contradicting MY opinions with YOUR opinions doesn't make any of it any more or less true...and THAT is a fact.

The difference is that your opinions are just opinions and my opinions are facts. Ha. Actually, some of what I said is factually based, like no. 7 (and HavGriz showed that what you said was wrong). I like you as a poster, and you provide some good researched information, but you are too far away from Missoula and the games to have you fingers on the pulse of Griz football and Griz nation, in my view.

PR, You're the biggest cocksucker on this board..

 

[CDAGRIZ]

The three-headed monster - bias, agenda and fear of change.

I'd argue 4-headed. You can toss in the "We're-little-ole-Montana-we're not-good/big/important/rich/whatever-enough" inferiority complex.

Is it that, or is it more: "We're big bad Montana and if we hover around .500 for a few years we won't have any fans because we think all Griz fans equate the success of the football team with their pride in the University and we are therefore better off playing OK Panhandle so we can continue to feel tough."

Do you think that attendance wouldn't drop if UM was around .500 for a few years, or even a bit over .500? I think it would drop significantly. UM's attendance has grown with the success of the team, and that success included both winning most games and going to and advancing in the playoffs. Attendance has also grown because the games and game-day atmosphere, at the stadium and in Missoula, are fun. There are alot of bandwagon fans. Bandwagon fans are fine, but most of them don't stick around without the continuance of the reasons they became fans continuing to exist. Also, my theory has been that some fans try to attend every, or almost every, home game, because of the importance of each game in winning the conference and making and getting seeded in the playoffs. Without the playoffs and without having a chance to contend for the conference championship in most years, I think some fans would be less likely to try to attend all games.

100% correct.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

I honestly don't think attendance would drop after a few .500 seasons, as long as we were competitive and people felt like the program was moving in the right direction. Like a few others who've commented on this, I used to be solidly in the FCS/I-AA camp. Now I think it's a disservice to our players to send them to Greeley or Cheney or Pocatello to play.

 

[AZGrizFan]

PR, contradicting MY opinions with YOUR opinions doesn't make any of it any more or less true...and THAT is a fact.

The difference is that your opinions are just opinions and my opinions are facts. Ha. Actually, some of what I said is factually based, like no. 7 (and HavGriz showed that what you said was wrong). I like you as a poster, and you provide some good researched information, but you are too far away from Missoula and the games to have you fingers on the pulse of Griz football and Griz nation, in my view.

OK. :roll:

There's this new invention, it's called a PHONE. And the interwebs...I DO have the ability to communicate with other Griz fans even though I don't live there any more...

And reported attendance may not be dwindling (I worded that response poorly), but there's no longer that huge wait for season tickets that used to exist, and playoff attendance (outside of the occasional ASU game, which will never happen again) is HORRID. If you'd seen what the San Diego game looked like on TV, you'd be embarrassed. Apparently "fans" aren't as enamored with playoff games as one might think. And they aren't enamored by paying FBS prices for D-II level opponents. Yay, it's great we can beat our chests about going 6-0 at home, but against the likes of UNC, UND, USD, San Diego, etc., etc...big frickin' whoop.

 

[get'em_griz]

I honestly don't think attendance would drop after a few .500 seasons, as long as we were competitive and people felt like the program was moving in the right direction. Like a few others who've commented on this, I used to be solidly in the FCS/I-AA camp. Now I think it's a disservice to our players to send them to Greeley or Cheney or Pocatello to play.

We have this:

And that's more similar to these:
Nevada:

Wyoming:

Utah State:

But we play at these:
Northern Colorado:

Southern Utah:

Idaho State:

 

[NavyBlue]

No need to move up because the lower FBS schools are drifting our way. Once the lower 5 FBS, and the upper 3-4 FCS combine, then we can worry about what conference is best for us. The Big 5 will never come calling so we dont have to worry about that.

The path we are on is righteous dudes. Party on!

oredigger, I think you are incorrect. Do you think the G5 FBS leagues are going to drop down to 63 scholarships? I don't think they will. Do you think they will just accept thier fate and align with current FCS schools? I don't. Most of FCS the G5 want nothing to do with, if you did watch or pay attention to FBS games you would know that. The MWC schools aren't just going to throw up thier hands and say that Northern Colorado and Southern Utah are thier peers now. It ain't gonna happen.

Being a top tier FCS school UM might have a change to eventually be invited to a G5 conference such as the MWC, but the vast majority of the Big Sky and FCS does not. And those schools (the G5) will not be merging with the current FCS, take that to the bank.

 

[AZGrizFan]

One Friday night game a year wouldn't hurt attendance, but what if the Griz played in a conference like the MAC, where ESPN makes them play almost ALL their games on Tuesday and Wednesday night's? I don't care WHO the opponent was, that would crush attendance at Wash-Griz. I've also seen no plan of a Little-Five playoff system either.

Oh yeah, and I drove from Havre the day of the Northern Iowa game. Roads were free and clear that day. LOL. JUst sayin.

Who here is advocating a move to the MAC?

 

[NavyBlue]

Good post "go get'em Griz".

It is very clear that UM looks more like a MWC school than it does a BSC school.