Draining the lifeblood of the department (Move-up thread)

[PlayerRep]

HAHA, the reasons in my OP are NOT the least bit mythical. AZ, you know I agree with a lot of what you post on here, but I'm starting to get the sense you haven't actually ready my OP or any of my subsequent posts. Even my last post, where for the THIRD TIME I stated my reason for starting this thread ot begin with. So I'll say it for a fourth time. My only intent was to point out that Montana presently doesn't have the number of sports or scholarship equity required for a move to the MWC. AZ, seriously, you should read my original post, I actually think it's quite informative.

Happy New Year

Hav, I apologize. I got wrapped up in arguing the mythical reaons with RobGriz. But I think you need to move away from the "the MWC doesn't want us". As I said earlier in the thread, what I want is a PLAN, so that when the day comes when we DO have to make a decision, whether it's the MWC or some other iteration (given the constant shifting of the college football world), we're ready to make that move. I DO think that the addition of women's softball, the Champions Center, etc., etc. are all moves in the right direction, and it's beginning to appear there might BE a plan which is awesome. But as people have pointed out multiple times, teams move up, but they never move back down....there's got to be a financial reason for that.

While finances would be part of the analysis, there are other important factors. For example, fan bases change and evolve in terms of age and expectations after move ups. They get used to being in FBS. Not as many of them remember FCS and the playoffs. They don't want to move down. That's a big factor. Moving down would usually cause a change in conference affiliation. This would be a big issue and big disruption, and impact then-current rivalries. Changing coaching and athletic departments and salaries would not be easy. My impression is that if finances were the only factor, more schools would in fact move down.

FBS needs to figure out how to get more of its conferences out of the "arms race" with the bigger FBS conferences. Those lesser conferences and school don't have the funding to keep up, and never will.

 

[PlayerRep]

HAHA, the reasons in my OP are NOT the least bit mythical. AZ, you know I agree with a lot of what you post on here, but I'm starting to get the sense you haven't actually ready my OP or any of my subsequent posts. Even my last post, where for the THIRD TIME I stated my reason for starting this thread ot begin with. So I'll say it for a fourth time. My only intent was to point out that Montana presently doesn't have the number of sports or scholarship equity required for a move to the MWC. AZ, seriously, you should read my original post, I actually think it's quite informative.

Happy New Year

Hav, I apologize. I got wrapped up in arguing the mythical reaons with RobGriz. But I think you need to move away from the "the MWC doesn't want us". As I said earlier in the thread, what I want is a PLAN, so that when the day comes when we DO have to make a decision, whether it's the MWC or some other iteration (given the constant shifting of the college football world), we're ready to make that move. I DO think that the addition of women's softball, the Champions Center, etc., etc. are all moves in the right direction, and it's beginning to appear there might BE a plan which is awesome. But as people have pointed out multiple times, teams move up, but they never move back down....there's got to be a financial reason for that.

I think there almost has to be some kind of a plan. At least the current additions seem to point that way but we have a ways to go yet and if our move up is handcuffed to MSU being able to move up at the same time it'll take some time. And you may not agree with my opinions but that doesn't make them mythical any more than it makes yours mythical, some would say that guaranteed success would be as mythical as guaranteed failure. I thought you and I were good...?

UM has been trying to be prepared for changes in the landscape for a decade. The problem has been the lack of funding, as well as the increasing costs, including more sports to satisfy Title IX. No one has suggested that UM shouldn't be keeping its eyes open and being as prepared as possible for changes in the landscape, especially as it may impact FCS. While it is possible that FCS will become much less attractive, or something very attractive for UM will come up, at this point, I don't see either of those things happening in the foreseeable future.

 

[RobGriz]

HAHA, the reasons in my OP are NOT the least bit mythical. AZ, you know I agree with a lot of what you post on here, but I'm starting to get the sense you haven't actually ready my OP or any of my subsequent posts. Even my last post, where for the THIRD TIME I stated my reason for starting this thread ot begin with. So I'll say it for a fourth time. My only intent was to point out that Montana presently doesn't have the number of sports or scholarship equity required for a move to the MWC. AZ, seriously, you should read my original post, I actually think it's quite informative.

Happy New Year

Hav, I apologize. I got wrapped up in arguing the mythical reaons with RobGriz. But I think you need to move away from the "the MWC doesn't want us". As I said earlier in the thread, what I want is a PLAN, so that when the day comes when we DO have to make a decision, whether it's the MWC or some other iteration (given the constant shifting of the college football world), we're ready to make that move. I DO think that the addition of women's softball, the Champions Center, etc., etc. are all moves in the right direction, and it's beginning to appear there might BE a plan which is awesome. But as people have pointed out multiple times, teams move up, but they never move back down....there's got to be a financial reason for that.

I think there almost has to be some kind of a plan. At least the current additions seem to point that way but we have a ways to go yet and if our move up is handcuffed to MSU being able to move up at the same time it'll take some time. And you may not agree with my opinions but that doesn't make them mythical any more than it makes yours mythical, some would say that guaranteed success would be as mythical as guaranteed failure. I thought you and I were good...?

UM has been trying to be prepared for changes in the landscape for a decade. The problem has been the lack of funding, as well as the increasing costs, including more sports to satisfy Title IX. No one has suggested that UM shouldn't be keeping its eyes open and being as prepared as possible for changes in the landscape, especially as it may impact FCS. While it is possible that FCS will become much less attractive, or something very attractive for UM will come up, at this point, I don't see either of those things happening in the foreseeable future.

Nor do I and I don't want us jumping at an offer just to "play the big boys". Several people, as I'm sure you remember, were eager to jump to the WAC a few years ago. Thank God we avoided that fiasco.

 

[GrizzGriz]

Hav, I apologize. I got wrapped up in arguing the mythical reaons with RobGriz. But I think you need to move away from the "the MWC doesn't want us". As I said earlier in the thread, what I want is a PLAN, so that when the day comes when we DO have to make a decision, whether it's the MWC or some other iteration (given the constant shifting of the college football world), we're ready to make that move. I DO think that the addition of women's softball, the Champions Center, etc., etc. are all moves in the right direction, and it's beginning to appear there might BE a plan which is awesome. But as people have pointed out multiple times, teams move up, but they never move back down....there's got to be a financial reason for that.

I think there almost has to be some kind of a plan. At least the current additions seem to point that way but we have a ways to go yet and if our move up is handcuffed to MSU being able to move up at the same time it'll take some time. And you may not agree with my opinions but that doesn't make them mythical any more than it makes yours mythical, some would say that guaranteed success would be as mythical as guaranteed failure. I thought you and I were good...?

UM has been trying to be prepared for changes in the landscape for a decade. The problem has been the lack of funding, as well as the increasing costs, including more sports to satisfy Title IX. No one has suggested that UM shouldn't be keeping its eyes open and being as prepared as possible for changes in the landscape, especially as it may impact FCS. While it is possible that FCS will become much less attractive, or something very attractive for UM will come up, at this point, I don't see either of those things happening in the foreseeable future.

Nor do I and I don't want us jumping at an offer just to "play the big boys". Several people, as I'm sure you remember, were eager to jump to the WAC a few years ago. Thank God we avoided that fiasco.

Depends on how you define fiasco...Boise State was in the WAC from 2001 to 2010...seems to have worked out quite well for them as another step up the ladder.

 

[RobGriz]

I think there almost has to be some kind of a plan. At least the current additions seem to point that way but we have a ways to go yet and if our move up is handcuffed to MSU being able to move up at the same time it'll take some time. And you may not agree with my opinions but that doesn't make them mythical any more than it makes yours mythical, some would say that guaranteed success would be as mythical as guaranteed failure. I thought you and I were good...?

UM has been trying to be prepared for changes in the landscape for a decade. The problem has been the lack of funding, as well as the increasing costs, including more sports to satisfy Title IX. No one has suggested that UM shouldn't be keeping its eyes open and being as prepared as possible for changes in the landscape, especially as it may impact FCS. While it is possible that FCS will become much less attractive, or something very attractive for UM will come up, at this point, I don't see either of those things happening in the foreseeable future.

Nor do I and I don't want us jumping at an offer just to "play the big boys". Several people, as I'm sure you remember, were eager to jump to the WAC a few years ago. Thank God we avoided that fiasco.

Depends on how you define fiasco...Boise State was in the WAC from 2001 to 2010...seems to have worked out quite well for them as another step up the ladder.

Yes, because the mess that the WAC is today is what Boise jumped into. :roll:

You do realize that the WAC dropped football...right?

 

[GrizzGriz]

UM has been trying to be prepared for changes in the landscape for a decade. The problem has been the lack of funding, as well as the increasing costs, including more sports to satisfy Title IX. No one has suggested that UM shouldn't be keeping its eyes open and being as prepared as possible for changes in the landscape, especially as it may impact FCS. While it is possible that FCS will become much less attractive, or something very attractive for UM will come up, at this point, I don't see either of those things happening in the foreseeable future.

Nor do I and I don't want us jumping at an offer just to "play the big boys". Several people, as I'm sure you remember, were eager to jump to the WAC a few years ago. Thank God we avoided that fiasco.

Depends on how you define fiasco...Boise State was in the WAC from 2001 to 2010...seems to have worked out quite well for them as another step up the ladder.

Yes, because the mess that the WAC is today is what Boise jumped into. :roll:

You do realize that the WAC dropped football...right?

Absolutely, again, Boise used it as a step up...just like they used the Big West before that (they also don't play football any more). They have a plan and have stuck to it. Look at the arrangement they made with the Mountain West after all the Big East changes....have a plan and move on it!

 

[RobGriz]

Nor do I and I don't want us jumping at an offer just to "play the big boys". Several people, as I'm sure you remember, were eager to jump to the WAC a few years ago. Thank God we avoided that fiasco.

Depends on how you define fiasco...Boise State was in the WAC from 2001 to 2010...seems to have worked out quite well for them as another step up the ladder.

Yes, because the mess that the WAC is today is what Boise jumped into. :roll:

You do realize that the WAC dropped football...right?

Absolutely, again, Boise used it as a step up...just like they used the Big West before that (they also don't play football any more). They have a plan and have stuck to it. Look at the arrangement they made with the Mountain West after all the Big East changes....have a plan and move on it!

Had we joined when the implosion was taking place we would've been left scrambling to find a home. It may have worked out but who knows. Just as good a chance it could've ended bad.

 

[AZGrizFan]

HAHA, the reasons in my OP are NOT the least bit mythical. AZ, you know I agree with a lot of what you post on here, but I'm starting to get the sense you haven't actually ready my OP or any of my subsequent posts. Even my last post, where for the THIRD TIME I stated my reason for starting this thread ot begin with. So I'll say it for a fourth time. My only intent was to point out that Montana presently doesn't have the number of sports or scholarship equity required for a move to the MWC. AZ, seriously, you should read my original post, I actually think it's quite informative.

Happy New Year

Hav, I apologize. I got wrapped up in arguing the mythical reaons with RobGriz. But I think you need to move away from the "the MWC doesn't want us". As I said earlier in the thread, what I want is a PLAN, so that when the day comes when we DO have to make a decision, whether it's the MWC or some other iteration (given the constant shifting of the college football world), we're ready to make that move. I DO think that the addition of women's softball, the Champions Center, etc., etc. are all moves in the right direction, and it's beginning to appear there might BE a plan which is awesome. But as people have pointed out multiple times, teams move up, but they never move back down....there's got to be a financial reason for that.

I think there almost has to be some kind of a plan. At least the current additions seem to point that way but we have a ways to go yet and if our move up is handcuffed to MSU being able to move up at the same time it'll take some time. And you may not agree with my opinions but that doesn't make them mythical any more than it makes yours mythical, some would say that guaranteed success would be as mythical as guaranteed failure. I thought you and I were good...?

We are. Wasn't trying to pull the bandage off that wound...just explaining to Hav where I went off the rails last night.

 

[Silvertip]

I truly don't understand the fascination of some to move up, and play games against FBS schools. It has no appeal to me at all. I love and live for the playoffs. Love the quest to win conference games. Love to follow the other conference games, and the FCS top 25. The playoffs are my favorite time of the year. The years the Griz march through the playoffs are full of excitement and are awesome.

Hmm? Your deep reverence for the playoffs is particularly strange coming from a hoity-toity Ivy environment where they dain not to even mingle with the public school rabble who make up the playoff merry-go-round... must have become an acquired taste like beer...

 

[GrizLA]

Perhaps, when Montana can pay its professors enough to keep or attract the best available, pay its graduate assistants, at least the national rate, only then will "move up" be appropriate.
Within 10 years those lucrative tv contracts will be expiring and the new technology is going to mean major upheavals in many areas. Games being viewed will have to be paid for just like going to the internet. Should a conference like the Pac 12 share their $$ with other conferences will be discussed and you can be sure that it will be with only the other top conferences. You people are basing your "move up" expectations on a changing world and I would hope a university president and its board would look beyond what is 'desirable" and what is reality.

 

[ordigger]

Perhaps, when Montana can pay its professors enough to keep or attract the best available, pay its graduate assistants, at least the national rate, only then will "move up" be appropriate.
Within 10 years those lucrative tv contracts will be expiring and the new technology is going to mean major upheavals in many areas. Games being viewed will have to be paid for just like going to the internet. Should a conference like the Pac 12 share their $$ with other conferences will be discussed and you can be sure that it will be with only the other top conferences. You people are basing your "move up" expectations on a changing world and I would hope a university president and its board would look beyond what is 'desirable" and what is reality.

10 years? Just about the time that safety issues will have gotten out of control because of legal issues and lawsuits. By then it just may be flag football anyway. :shock:

Youth participation is already in decline.Unlike baseball, basketball and hockey there is no international participation which would increase the potential participation pool. Enjoy the ride, because in ten years the decline will really begin.

 

[Spanky]

Well then LA, maybe we should develop a plan to join the Pac 12. After all, UM was a member of the Pacific Coast Conference. Now, that is a goal that is worth working toward. Let's hear from Rob, Hav and their group about how impossible that would be....

 

[GrizLA]

Well then LA, maybe we should develop a plan to join the Pac 12. After all, UM was a member of the Pacific Coast Conference. Now, that is a goal that is worth working toward. Let's hear from Rob, Hav and their group about how impossible that would be....

When UM develops a respected medical school, a vet school, or achieves international recognition of excellence with enrollment numbers that include the top 5% of high schools in America, then they might be considered but, face it, UM is a small school that towers over its peers that are also small schools for the most part. I think over the next few years, UM will be proven to have made correct choices in remaining FCS...excelling in that consistently is a goal worth having.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Well then LA, maybe we should develop a plan to join the Pac 12. After all, UM was a member of the Pacific Coast Conference. Now, that is a goal that is worth working toward. Let's hear from Rob, Hav and their group about how impossible that would be....

When UM develops a respected medical school, a vet school, or achieves international recognition of excellence with enrollment numbers that include the top 5% of high schools in America

Like Arizona State?

 

[GrizLA]

Well then LA, maybe we should develop a plan to join the Pac 12. After all, UM was a member of the Pacific Coast Conference. Now, that is a goal that is worth working toward. Let's hear from Rob, Hav and their group about how impossible that would be....

When UM develops a respected medical school, a vet school, or achieves international recognition of excellence with enrollment numbers that include the top 5% of high schools in America

Like Arizona State?

If only...very, very strong engineering. strong in other fields as well, and a pretty good endowment with world wide recognition....

 

[Bisonation]

NDSU & Montana on January 12th should have both presidents flying to Salt Lake City to mountain west offices and telling them we'd like an invite we can help your conference.

If they complain about tv you say "we can provide statewide programming plus fox sports north or northwest"

If they complain about stadium attendances you say "would you rather have 22,000 fans in a 38,000 stadium or packed houses like NDSU/Montana get with great atmospheres"

We are the ONLY 2 teams with the fanbase to do it. (Problem is having 2 anchors holding us down and stealing half the state funded money grrr)

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Well then LA, maybe we should develop a plan to join the Pac 12. After all, UM was a member of the Pacific Coast Conference. Now, that is a goal that is worth working toward. Let's hear from Rob, Hav and their group about how impossible that would be....

When UM develops a respected medical school, a vet school, or achieves international recognition of excellence with enrollment numbers that include the top 5% of high schools in America

Like Arizona State?

If only...very, very strong engineering. strong in other fields as well, and a pretty good endowment with world wide recognition....

43rd in engineering (7th in the PAC 12) and an endowment smaller than Washington State. Not saying it's not more well known, but it's hardly an academic powerhouse. Great talent in other areas.

 

[GrizLA]

When UM develops a respected medical school, a vet school, or achieves international recognition of excellence with enrollment numbers that include the top 5% of high schools in America

Like Arizona State?

If only...very, very strong engineering. strong in other fields as well, and a pretty good endowment with world wide recognition....

43rd in engineering (7th in the PAC 12) and an endowment smaller than Washington State. Not saying it's not more well known, but it's hardly an academic powerhouse. Great talent in other areas.

Compare all that to Montana...UM has far, far, far, far to go...

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Like Arizona State?

If only...very, very strong engineering. strong in other fields as well, and a pretty good endowment with world wide recognition....

43rd in engineering (7th in the PAC 12) and an endowment smaller than Washington State. Not saying it's not more well known, but it's hardly an academic powerhouse. Great talent in other areas.

Compare all that to Montana...UM has far, far, far, far to go...

Yep but it's also proof that "a respected medical school, a vet school, or [ ] international recognition of excellence with enrollment numbers that include the top 5% of high schools in America" are not prerequisites for PAC 12 membership.

 

[GrizLA]

If only...very, very strong engineering. strong in other fields as well, and a pretty good endowment with world wide recognition....

43rd in engineering (7th in the PAC 12) and an endowment smaller than Washington State. Not saying it's not more well known, but it's hardly an academic powerhouse. Great talent in other areas.

Compare all that to Montana...UM has far, far, far, far to go...

Yep but it's also proof that "a respected medical school, a vet school, or [ ] international recognition of excellence with enrollment numbers that include the top 5% of high schools in America" are not prerequisites for PAC 12 membership.

I live in an area heavy with engineers. My immediate neighbor, a good friend, sitting right here, begs to differ with you since he did much of the hiring at Jacobs for years. Lots of ASU grads here, and, wouldn't you know, they think ASU is better than OSU, WSU, Cal Poly, and, even Oregon...face it, when you have alumnus like that, with adequate funding, schools like UM simply are not on that level. Not a fault of anything to be ashamed of. For a smallish liberal arts school, UM has done ok. It is right where it should be athletically speaking. For what it's worth, he think Idaho churns out some good engineers and designers, as well...