Draining the lifeblood of the department (Move-up thread)

[ordigger]

Everything is was about sports....no mention of academic peers. I assume you are comfortable being considered a peer with EWU, SU, UNC, etc? We do have a few good academic peers like UND & MSU and with the part-timers Cal Poly & Davis.

Is UM a peer of Cal Poly and Davis? Aren't those schools ranked way above UM?

Good point.....Montana Tech is the better peer to Cal Poly and Davis.

Cal Poly is ranked 10th in Regional Universities-West. Davis is ranked 38th in National Universities. UM is ranked 194th in National Universities.

Didn't realize that Montana Tech was in the Big Sky conference.

Link? I'm just curious as to all the BSC schools.....thanks.

 

[billings_poke]

UTEP to reunite with their fellow WAC brethren.

Agree. Most think the MWC would look to Texas to add UTEP, North Texas, UTSA, or Texas State

 

[billings_poke]

Since it is the offseason, and I've never started one before, here's a move-up thread, but from a different perspective. Given what Boise did today in the Fiesta Bowl, it will once again spwan the "Why can't we" do it banter, so I'll play along. But from a different perspective.

But before I get into it, the most basic and fundamental reason "we can't" is because as of today, THE MOUNTAIN WEST CONFERENCE doesn't want Montana. If someone has any factual evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Having said that, here's some food for thought on moving up. Even if the MWC sends the Griz an invite, it doesn't change something that I've seen some Egrizzers and diehard boosters bitch about, and that's football carrying the other sports. The GSA does NOT just go to football scholarships, and I have had conversations with boosters who are really bothered by that fact. I have heard, and seen more than one post on Egriz wishing that sports like tennis and cross country could be dropped.

But, in a move-up scenario, it's the EXACT opposite. Not only will be sports that are "carried" by football revenue and the GSA NOT be dropped, they will be added. And those olympic sports as they're referred too, will not operate at current Big Sky Conference budgets. If Montana moved to an FBS football conference like the MWC, ALL of the sports' operating costs will increase.

Since Boise State is the biggest comparison, let's look. BSU is as at the bare minimum in men's sports to be able to compete at the NCAA DI level. They offer football, basketball, x-country, golf, tennis, track and field and wrestling. In comparison, Montana is two shy of that as Montana does not have wrestling or men's golf. On the other side, BSU is well within NCAA compliance in the number of women's athletic scholarships offered, but in order to do that, and keep their current men's sports, they fund 11 fulltime women's sports. They offer basketball, volleyball, soccer, softball, gymnastics, swimming and diving, golf, tennis, x-country, track and field and the ever-so-popular sand volleyball. According to their website, it is that balance that has them in compliance as far as an equal amount of scholarships offered.

Conversely, Montana offers the following women's sports, basketball, volleyball, golf, tennis, x-country, track and field and now softball. Do the math, if Montana's football program were to move up, at least two more men's sports would be added, probably golf and wrestling, and with the number of added football scholarships offered at the FBS level, Montana would once again be out of Title9 compliance with the NCAA. Hence, how many more women's sports would need to be added to get the scholarship equity back in balance? At least gymnastics and swimming and diving most likely.

The point is this, from what I here, the GSA is pretty maxed, and they are always pushing hard for new members. And with people clamoring that the olympic sports are unfairly draining the football revenue stream and booster money, just where does the move-up crowd think the money to fund the sports that would be REQUIRED to compete in the MWC will come from. Where is it? Again, if someone has a factual answer to that I'm all ears, but at any rate, some of you can't have it both ways. You can't move up football and forget about everything else that goes into an athletic department, i.e. tennis, golf and even sand volleyball. It just doesn't work that way.

Well for one thing you would instantly see an additional $3 - $4 million a year from the MWC. 2 million or so in conference payouts, from TV and bowls. Add in NCAA basketball credits, which are substantial in the MWC, for at least a 3.5 million check. and that does not include the new money from the Playoff system in FBS.

Here is an article on what SDSU got from the MWC in 2014 and they were about average. The 2015 payout will be higher with the new playoff check coming in and every school in the MWC should get a check for about $4 million

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/jun/04/aztecs-mountain-west-payout-2013-14-3-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


So to Sum it up.
1. An extra $4 million (give or take a bit) in extra MWC revenue
2. Extra cash from BB when you are playing SDSU, Wyo, USU, New Mexico, CSU and UNLV by drawing bigger crowds at home
3. Bigger paychecks when playing FBS P5 programs on the road.


There is an extra $4.5 mill a year is that enough? I don't know do you?


I actually do agree with you though that Montana may not have the resources to go FBS. Wyoming only survives due to being the only 4 year school in the state and not splitting the resources.

 

[EverettGriz]

Hav, You raise a number of great questions. And frankly, if there were easy answers, our move up decision would be essentially made for us one way or the other.

But where I -- and many others -- disagree with you is the premise that the move up is only about FB. I'm excited about a possible move up not only for the effect it would have on the FB program (all positives in my mind) but also the great impact it would have on the other sports within the program.

As for the GSA, I think the majority of people who donate to it want and expect it to provide scholarship opportunities to student athletes in all sports within the program. I think we sometimes get a a little tunnel vision regarding UM supporters by reading this board, which obviously is driven by the hardcore FB fans.

Regarding the revenue to support a move up, all I'll say is that programs move up all the time, but no one ever moves down. Since university presidents and state's regents or boards of higher ed are not typically stupid people, I have to assume the P and L statement must look okay for those programs at the end of the year.

 

[kemajic]

As for the GSA, I think the majority of people who donate to it want and expect it to provide scholarship opportunities to student athletes in all sports within the program. I think we sometimes get a a little tunnel vision regarding UM supporters by reading this board, which obviously is driven by the hardcore FB fans.

OK, but where it gets sticky for me is when the GSA donation is the requirement for purchasing season FOOTBALL tickets. It's not all good with me that that money does not stay in support of football.

 

[kemajic]

Regarding the revenue to support a move up, all I'll say is that programs move up all the time, but no one ever moves down. Since university presidents and state's regents or boards of higher ed are not typically stupid people, I have to assume the P and L statement must look okay for those programs at the end of the year.

Foul! No fair. The status quo crowd has never had a valid response to this point.

 

[wbtfg]

A few other things to consider.

1. Coaching salaries: how much would um have to increase salaries for head and assistants for the basketball and football programs?

Recruiting budgets: pretty much all recruiting will need to be done out of state.

State support: curious what um athletics state tax dollar allocation looks like compared to other mwc programs.

Cost of attendace stipends: will the mwc follow along with other conferences by increasing each scholarship (not just fb and bball) a few thousand a year to include misc living expenses?

 

[billings_poke]

A few other things to consider.

1. Coaching salaries: how much would um have to increase salaries for head and assistants for the basketball and football programs?

Recruiting budgets: pretty much all recruiting will need to be done out of state.

State support: curious what um athletics state tax dollar allocation looks like compared to other mwc programs.

Cost of attendace stipends: will the mwc follow along with other conferences by increasing each scholarship (not just fb and bball) a few thousand a year to include misc living expenses?

MWC has said it is up to the schools. Most have said they do intend to up student aid to include full cost of attendance.

 

[wbtfg]

A few other things to consider.

1. Coaching salaries: how much would um have to increase salaries for head and assistants for the basketball and football programs?

Recruiting budgets: pretty much all recruiting will need to be done out of state.

State support: curious what um athletics state tax dollar allocation looks like compared to other mwc programs.

Cost of attendace stipends: will the mwc follow along with other conferences by increasing each scholarship (not just fb and bball) a few thousand a year to include misc living expenses?

MWC has said it is up to the schools. Most have said they do intend to up student aid to include full cost of attendance.

If one or two schools do it everyone else has to find a way to make it happen or get left in the dust.

 

[billings_poke]

A few other things to consider.

1. Coaching salaries: how much would um have to increase salaries for head and assistants for the basketball and football programs?

Recruiting budgets: pretty much all recruiting will need to be done out of state.

State support: curious what um athletics state tax dollar allocation looks like compared to other mwc programs.

Cost of attendace stipends: will the mwc follow along with other conferences by increasing each scholarship (not just fb and bball) a few thousand a year to include misc living expenses?

MWC has said it is up to the schools. Most have said they do intend to up student aid to include full cost of attendance.

If one or two schools do it everyone else has to find a way to make it happen or get left in the dust.

Yep. Wyo is seeking a $4 million dollar increase to Athletic budget right now. State is paying for a new $20 million dollar high altitude training center and is offering a 1-1 match for private donations for other projects. Meaning if I donate a dollar the state matches that dollar.

Wyo govenor has said we will do what we need to do to keep Wyo competitive in terms of AD budget.

 

[wbtfg]

A few other things to consider.

1. Coaching salaries: how much would um have to increase salaries for head and assistants for the basketball and football programs?

Recruiting budgets: pretty much all recruiting will need to be done out of state.

State support: curious what um athletics state tax dollar allocation looks like compared to other mwc programs.

Cost of attendace stipends: will the mwc follow along with other conferences by increasing each scholarship (not just fb and bball) a few thousand a year to include misc living expenses?

MWC has said it is up to the schools. Most have said they do intend to up student aid to include full cost of attendance.

If one or two schools do it everyone else has to find a way to make it happen or get left in the dust.

Yep. Wyo is seeking a $4 million dollar increase to Athletic budget right now. State is paying for a new $20 million dollar high altitude training center and is offering a 1-1 match for private donations for other projects. Meaning if I donate a dollar the state matches that dollar.

Wyo govenor has said we will do what we need to do to keep Wyo competitive in terms of AD budget.

So the question is, could UM follow suit?

 

[EverettGriz]

As for the GSA, I think the majority of people who donate to it want and expect it to provide scholarship opportunities to student athletes in all sports within the program. I think we sometimes get a a little tunnel vision regarding UM supporters by reading this board, which obviously is driven by the hardcore FB fans.

OK, but where it gets sticky for me is when the GSA donation is the requirement for purchasing season FOOTBALL tickets. It's not all good with me that that money does not stay in support of football.

Well, I guess I understand that. But it really doesn't seem to be a big issue to me. The money to fund the other scholarships has to come from somewhere. If it doesn't come from the GSA, it has to come from the AD's general fund. So it's not as if it's really taking money away from the football program. ANY money that the GSA raises is good for the entire department, including the FB program.

 

[wbtfg]

My donation only goes to the player(s) i deem worthy.

 

[EverettGriz]

My donation only goes to the player(s) i deem worthy.

Nice!

 

[AZGrizFan]

My donation only goes to the player(s) i deem worthy.

:lol:

A new revenue stream: Player sponsorship! You pick a player, donate your money, and they have to wear a patch with your avatar on their uniform.

 

[NorthEndZoneDan]

My donation only goes to the player(s) i deem worthy.

:lol:

A new revenue stream: Player sponsorship! You pick a player, donate your money, and they have to wear a patch with your avatar on their uniform.

I can see it now, the entire O line sporting patches from Remax after getting sponsored/bought out by BW

 

[PlayerRep]

Since it is the offseason, and I've never started one before, here's a move-up thread, but from a different perspective. Given what Boise did today in the Fiesta Bowl, it will once again spwan the "Why can't we" do it banter, so I'll play along. But from a different perspective.

But before I get into it, the most basic and fundamental reason "we can't" is because as of today, THE MOUNTAIN WEST CONFERENCE doesn't want Montana. If someone has any factual evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Having said that, here's some food for thought on moving up. Even if the MWC sends the Griz an invite, it doesn't change something that I've seen some Egrizzers and diehard boosters bitch about, and that's football carrying the other sports. The GSA does NOT just go to football scholarships, and I have had conversations with boosters who are really bothered by that fact. I have heard, and seen more than one post on Egriz wishing that sports like tennis and cross country could be dropped.

But, in a move-up scenario, it's the EXACT opposite. Not only will be sports that are "carried" by football revenue and the GSA NOT be dropped, they will be added. And those olympic sports as they're referred too, will not operate at current Big Sky Conference budgets. If Montana moved to an FBS football conference like the MWC, ALL of the sports' operating costs will increase.

Since Boise State is the biggest comparison, let's look. BSU is as at the bare minimum in men's sports to be able to compete at the NCAA DI level. They offer football, basketball, x-country, golf, tennis, track and field and wrestling. In comparison, Montana is two shy of that as Montana does not have wrestling or men's golf. On the other side, BSU is well within NCAA compliance in the number of women's athletic scholarships offered, but in order to do that, and keep their current men's sports, they fund 11 fulltime women's sports. They offer basketball, volleyball, soccer, softball, gymnastics, swimming and diving, golf, tennis, x-country, track and field and the ever-so-popular sand volleyball. According to their website, it is that balance that has them in compliance as far as an equal amount of scholarships offered.

Conversely, Montana offers the following women's sports, basketball, volleyball, golf, tennis, x-country, track and field and now softball. Do the math, if Montana's football program were to move up, at least two more men's sports would be added, probably golf and wrestling, and with the number of added football scholarships offered at the FBS level, Montana would once again be out of Title9 compliance with the NCAA. Hence, how many more women's sports would need to be added to get the scholarship equity back in balance? At least gymnastics and swimming and diving most likely.

The point is this, from what I here, the GSA is pretty maxed, and they are always pushing hard for new members. And with people clamoring that the olympic sports are unfairly draining the football revenue stream and booster money, just where does the move-up crowd think the money to fund the sports that would be REQUIRED to compete in the MWC will come from. Where is it? Again, if someone has a factual answer to that I'm all ears, but at any rate, some of you can't have it both ways. You can't move up football and forget about everything else that goes into an athletic department, i.e. tennis, golf and even sand volleyball. It just doesn't work that way.

Well for one thing you would instantly see an additional $3 - $4 million a year from the MWC. 2 million or so in conference payouts, from TV and bowls. Add in NCAA basketball credits, which are substantial in the MWC, for at least a 3.5 million check. and that does not include the new money from the Playoff system in FBS.

Here is an article on what SDSU got from the MWC in 2014 and they were about average. The 2015 payout will be higher with the new playoff check coming in and every school in the MWC should get a check for about $4 million

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/jun/04/aztecs-mountain-west-payout-2013-14-3-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


So to Sum it up.
1. An extra $4 million (give or take a bit) in extra MWC revenue
2. Extra cash from BB when you are playing SDSU, Wyo, USU, New Mexico, CSU and UNLV by drawing bigger crowds at home
3. Bigger paychecks when playing FBS P5 programs on the road.


There is an extra $4.5 mill a year is that enough? I don't know do you?


I actually do agree with you though that Montana may not have the resources to go FBS. Wyoming only survives due to being the only 4 year school in the state and not splitting the resources.

First, I don't believe the $4.5 million figure.

According to a feasibility study done at least 3 years ago, maybe 4, no, $4.5 million is not enough additional revenue. About $5 million was needed then. I assume it's probably $6 or so million now.

And, while getting an invite from the MW might not be a pipe dream, it's not exactly likely.

 

[EverettGriz]

So we couldn't come up with an additional mill through other means? Trust me, our "guarantee" games would increase markedly as an FBS program. No more 400k to go to Tennessee. More like two and half to three times that.

And I would guess that that $6 million figure included both the Academic Center and the LR/WR improvements. Since those are already funded, it's reasonable to assume that five mill would be fully sufficient.

 

[George Ferguson]

Actually, Everett, if you read my original post, the entire point of it was the that moving up is NOT just a football issue. I was pointing out that that's all most people look at, like the Griz can move up in football, but those fans don't consider everything that comes with it.

Here's more research I did today. Boise State's 2013 budget for men's and women's tennis was just $825,000. Wyoming's wrestling budget for 2013 was over $800,000. Montana doesn't even carry a wrestling program, and I know for a fact, the men's and women's tennis budgets aren't even half of what Boise State spends. BUT, IF UM were to move up to the MWC, those budgets would HAVE to increase, and I would like to know where that funding will come from.

Again, my entire point is, Montana CAN'T move its football team up and have everything else in the athletic department be as it is today. It just doesn't work that way. Hell, I even posted about how some GSA members are mad about the fact that their money doesn't necessarily go to a football scholarship, and BOOM, one of them posted those feelings in this thread. LOL.

That's kind of my point proven right there.

 

[EverettGriz]

Actually, Everett, if you read my original post, the entire point of it was the that moving up is NOT just a football issue. I was pointing out that that's all most people look at, like the Griz can move up in football, but those fans don't consider everything that comes with it.

Here's more research I did today. Boise State's 2013 budget for men's and women's tennis was just $825,000. Wyoming's wrestling budget for 2013 was over $800,000. Montana doesn't even carry a wrestling program, and I know for a fact, the men's and women's tennis budgets aren't even half of what Boise State spends. BUT, IF UM were to move up to the MWC, those budgets would HAVE to increase, and I would like to know where that funding will come from.

Again, my entire point is, Montana CAN'T move its football team up and have everything else in the athletic department be as it is today. It just doesn't work that way. Hell, I even posted about how some GSA members are mad about the fact that their money doesn't necessarily go to a football scholarship, and BOOM, one of them posted those feelings in this thread. LOL.

That's kind of my point proven right there.

Hav, I completely understood your post, and am uncertain why my post suggested otherwise. Of COURSE spending on the other programs would have to increase. Frankly, that excites me. And again, I certainly cannot tell you where the revenue would come from (hence my post that if we knew our decision would be pretty easy to make). But what I can tell you is this: programs with far less FCS revenue than Montana make the move up, and none of them move down. So the revenue to cover the increased expenses HAS to be there. There is simply no other explanation.

Now, we can argue theoretically all day long about whether Montana would be successful at the FBS level (in all sports). But the question about money seems to be answered by empirical evidence.

And yes, I addressed those few on here who wished it was all about football in my original post. This board lends itself to attracting those people. There are tens of thousands of UM alums and fans who care about the entire department, and how it represents UM. Unfortunately for Chris, the vast majority of them do not visit here.