Draining the lifeblood of the department (Move-up thread)

[CDAGRIZ]

I would rather go to a home game against Fresno State than one against any team we played at home this year except for MSU. Fresno is not a shitty program.

Not saying they are. Actually I believe they'd whip the shit out of us. I guess that's what I'm having problems with. We are in a conference that we are competitive in some would say better than, though we've not won it in a few years, and I truly believe some of you'd rather watch the GRIZ get destroyed by teams like Utah St and Fresno than be competitive against MSU and EWU.

That may be true for some, but not for me. Yeah, we haven't won the BSC in a few years, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't be competitive in a mid-level FBS conference. We needed a break to beat EWU last year and this year, and they beat OSU and needed one more possession to beat 8-5 UW this year. I know, that's all transitive property analysis, but I think UM would be competitive.

If, however, it was certain that almost all of the mid-tier FBS teams would demolish UM, I would be against a move as well. I just don't think we would be cellar dwellers. And, yes, Hav, I know that no invite is on the table. Just trying to explain my thinking.

 

[RobGriz]

I would rather go to a home game against Fresno State than one against any team we played at home this year except for MSU. Fresno is not a shitty program.

Not saying they are. Actually I believe they'd whip the shit out of us. I guess that's what I'm having problems with. We are in a conference that we are competitive in some would say better than, though we've not won it in a few years, and I truly believe some of you'd rather watch the GRIZ get destroyed by teams like Utah St and Fresno than be competitive against MSU and EWU.

That may be true for some, but not for me. Yeah, we haven't won the BSC in a few years, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't be competitive in a mid-level FBS conference. We needed a break to beat EWU last year and this year, and they beat OSU and needed one more possession to beat 8-5 UW this year. I know, that's all transitive property analysis, but I think UM would be competitive.

If, however, it was certain that almost all of the mid-tier FBS teams would demolish UM, I would be against a move as well. I just don't think we would be cellar dwellers.

If by cellar dweller you mean 1-10 or 0-11 than I agree. I actually believe that we could be competitive 7-5 or even 8-4. HOWEVER, if we DON'T win almost from the beginning than I believe that we never will be. If we had 2 or 3 bad seasons in a row I believe we'd be in serious trouble because we'd be competing for recruits against teams that ARE in the too of the conference.

 

[George Ferguson]

CDA, I hear you, I just disagree. I think a move up would be a lengthy building process. It was for Boise. They didn't have overnight success and certainly didn't become a national darling right away. Just look at some of their early seasons and their early non-conference games. They had to pay their dues and Montana would to. And CDA, you are a longtime Egrizzer, you darn well know that the bulk of Egrizzers would NOT have the patience or understanding for such a process.

There is absolutely no way Montana would have any type of instant success in the MWC. And I do use the Big Sky as a comparison. EWU is a really good FCS team, and yes, they put a scare into the Huskies. But that was in September. Look at what went down with a completely HEALTHY EWU squad in the playoffs. They were not even one of the four best FCS teams this year and yet the Griz didn't stay with them in either game this season. Montana hasn't won a Big Sky title in five years, hasn't played in an FCS title game in as long, and just LOOK at all the threads on Egriz that discuss UM's deficiencies on the football field. O-Line, secondary, schemes, not enough athletes anymore, blah, blah, blah. If Egrizzers have been so right about how Montana has taken steps backwards in recent years, then just how in the hell is it possible to even THINK the Grizzlies could have ANY chance at instant success in the MWC??? And by instant success, I'm being generous, as in a winning season or bowl eligibility. That's just crazy to me, not to mention very contradictory and hyopcritical.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

I would rather go to a home game against Fresno State than one against any team we played at home this year except for MSU. Fresno is not a shitty program.

Not saying they are. Actually I believe they'd whip the shit out of us. I guess that's what I'm having problems with. We are in a conference that we are competitive in some would say better than, though we've not won it in a few years, and I truly believe some of you'd rather watch the GRIZ get destroyed by teams like Utah St and Fresno than be competitive against MSU and EWU.

That may be true for some, but not for me. Yeah, we haven't won the BSC in a few years, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't be competitive in a mid-level FBS conference. We needed a break to beat EWU last year and this year, and they beat OSU and needed one more possession to beat 8-5 UW this year. I know, that's all transitive property analysis, but I think UM would be competitive.

If, however, it was certain that almost all of the mid-tier FBS teams would demolish UM, I would be against a move as well. I just don't think we would be cellar dwellers.

If by cellar dweller you mean 1-10 or 0-11 than I agree. I actually believe that we could be competitive 7-5 or even 8-4. HOWEVER, if we DON'T win almost from the beginning than I believe that we never will be. If we had 2 or 3 bad seasons in a row I believe we'd be in serious trouble because we'd be competing for recruits against teams that ARE in the too of the conference.

Loud and clear. I don't disagree.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

CDA, I hear you, I just disagree. I think a move up would be a lengthy building process. It was for Boise. They didn't have overnight success and certainly didn't become a national darling right away. Just look at some of their early seasons and their early non-conference games. They had to pay their dues and Montana would to. And CDA, you are a longtime Egrizzer, you darn well know that the bulk of Egrizzers would NOT have the patience or understanding for such a process.

There is absolutely no way Montana would have any type of instant success in the MWC. And I do use the Big Sky as a comparison. EWU is a really good FCS team, and yes, they put a scare into the Huskies. But that was in September. Look at what went down with a completely HEALTHY EWU squad in the playoffs. They were not even one of the four best FCS teams this year and yet the Griz didn't stay with them in either game this season. Montana hasn't won a Big Sky title in five years, hasn't played in an FCS title game in as long, and just LOOK at all the threads on Egriz that discuss UM's deficiencies on the football field. O-Line, secondary, schemes, not enough athletes anymore, blah, blah, blah. If Egrizzers have been so right about how Montana has taken steps backwards in recent years, then just how in the hell is it possible to even THINK the Grizzlies could have ANY chance at instant success in the MWC??? And by instant success, I'm being generous, as in a winning season or bowl eligibility. That's just crazy to me, not to mention very contradictory and hyopcritical.

I can see your line of thinking, too. UM would have to pay its dues, and maybe some wouldn't have the patience for it. But that would be a small number. It's OK to take risks to try to better your situation.

It's well-documented what threw a monkey wrench into UM football over the last few years, so I don't really think those years are representative of what we could do with 85 scholarships and a good staff. I don't think we would win the conference by any means, but I bet we would be bowl eligible inside of five years.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Rob, it's a moot point. No need to even argue your point. The MWC doesn't want Montana. It's an indisputable fact. And those that say they'd rather watch Montana get rocked by 20-30 points by Boise State, Utah State, Nevada, Fresno State, Colorado State and Air Force are either lying, or are only looking at it short-term. If Montana were in the MWC, the I'd rather watch us get rocked by better schools Mantra would last about three games before the same people would want Stitt fired and Egriz would implode. If Egriz has taught us all one thing since its inception, NOTHING is EVER good enough for a select group of fans of the Montana Grizzly football program, and a move-up to the MWC wouldn't be good enough for long either.

Good GOD you're a drama queen. Of course THIS Montana team would get rocked by Boise or Utah State. When you move up, you recruit and attract a different level of athlete (well, at SOME positions, anyway--I'm pretty sure Wags, Holmes, Tripp, Coyle, etc. could all play and start for just about any MWC team), not to mention the additional 22 scholarships that might come in handy.

Perhaps if we were already in the MWC somebody like Matt Miller would have stayed in state instead of going to Boise...you know Matt Miller, right? The guy who is the ALL TIME LEADING RECEIVER for Boise State? The guy from Montana? Maybe Jesse Sims wouldn't have verballed to Oregon State. Maybe, because we'd be paying our coaches more, Wayne Tinkle would still be the basketball coach and Tres Tinkle would be playing HERE next year instead of Oregon State....the possibilities are endless, actually.

And honestly, if you're basing your entire perception of how Griz Nation would respond on the 4,000+ members (and about 150 regular posters) on eGriz, you've lost the argument before it even starts anyway. :roll:

 

[RobGriz]

Rob, it's a moot point. No need to even argue your point. The MWC doesn't want Montana. It's an indisputable fact. And those that say they'd rather watch Montana get rocked by 20-30 points by Boise State, Utah State, Nevada, Fresno State, Colorado State and Air Force are either lying, or are only looking at it short-term. If Montana were in the MWC, the I'd rather watch us get rocked by better schools Mantra would last about three games before the same people would want Stitt fired and Egriz would implode. If Egriz has taught us all one thing since its inception, NOTHING is EVER good enough for a select group of fans of the Montana Grizzly football program, and a move-up to the MWC wouldn't be good enough for long either.

Good GOD you're a drama queen. Of course THIS Montana team would get rocked by Boise or Utah State. When you move up, you recruit and attract a different level of athlete (well, at SOME positions, anyway--I'm pretty sure Wags, Holmes, Tripp, Coyle, etc. could all play and start for just about any MWC team), not to mention the additional 22 scholarships that might come in handy.

Perhaps if we were already in the MWC somebody like Matt Miller would have stayed in state instead of going to Boise...you know Matt Miller, right? The guy who is the ALL TIME LEADING RECEIVER for Boise State? The guy from Montana? Maybe Jesse Sims wouldn't have verballed to Oregon State. Maybe, because we'd be paying our coaches more, Wayne Tinkle would still be the basketball coach and Tres Tinkle would be playing HERE next year instead of Oregon State....the possibilities are endless, actually.

And honestly, if you're basing your entire perception of how Griz Nation would respond on the 4,000+ members (and about 150 regular posters) on eGriz, you've lost the argument before it even starts anyway. :roll:

Not sure we'd be able to pay our coaches THAT well...?

 

[AZGrizFan]

Rob, it's a moot point. No need to even argue your point. The MWC doesn't want Montana. It's an indisputable fact. And those that say they'd rather watch Montana get rocked by 20-30 points by Boise State, Utah State, Nevada, Fresno State, Colorado State and Air Force are either lying, or are only looking at it short-term. If Montana were in the MWC, the I'd rather watch us get rocked by better schools Mantra would last about three games before the same people would want Stitt fired and Egriz would implode. If Egriz has taught us all one thing since its inception, NOTHING is EVER good enough for a select group of fans of the Montana Grizzly football program, and a move-up to the MWC wouldn't be good enough for long either.

Good GOD you're a drama queen. Of course THIS Montana team would get rocked by Boise or Utah State. When you move up, you recruit and attract a different level of athlete (well, at SOME positions, anyway--I'm pretty sure Wags, Holmes, Tripp, Coyle, etc. could all play and start for just about any MWC team), not to mention the additional 22 scholarships that might come in handy.

Perhaps if we were already in the MWC somebody like Matt Miller would have stayed in state instead of going to Boise...you know Matt Miller, right? The guy who is the ALL TIME LEADING RECEIVER for Boise State? The guy from Montana? Maybe Jesse Sims wouldn't have verballed to Oregon State. Maybe, because we'd be paying our coaches more, Wayne Tinkle would still be the basketball coach and Tres Tinkle would be playing HERE next year instead of Oregon State....the possibilities are endless, actually.

And honestly, if you're basing your entire perception of how Griz Nation would respond on the 4,000+ members (and about 150 regular posters) on eGriz, you've lost the argument before it even starts anyway. :roll:

Not sure we'd be able to pay our coaches THAT well...?

You mean OSU-well? Probably not....but if Tinks were making 4-5 times what he was making here, he might not have been so quick to listen to other offers.

 

[George Ferguson]

AZ, I'm definitely not basing Griz Nation's feelings on Egriz. That's why I said EGRIZZERS wouldn't have the patience for it. I don't pretend to know how ALL of Griz Nation feels, but I have a pretty good pulse of how a portion of this board reacts to things. And I was waiting for someone to say "we'd attract better recruits". That's why I said THERE IS NO WAY Montana would have INSTANT success. INSTANT success would mean, IMMEDIATELY. And if Montana went up in 2016, better true freshman recruits wouldn't really change how competitive the Grizzlies would be THAT season or the next. The bulk of the starters would be players who are already currently on a Griz roster that is coming off a 9-5 season in the FCS, and many of which were not even starters on that team, by the time 2016 rolled around. It's funny, you're so blinded by your own opinion, you're not willing to read my entire post. And in my entire last post, I used terms like immediate success, egrizzers and a building process.

And I think it's interesting your argument that had Montana gone to the WAC in 2010 (That's when the actual invite was extended), they'd be in the MWC now. Why do you feel that way? You believe the MWC would have taken a team that had only been FBS for two years over Hawaii or San Jose State? Those teams, along with Fresno, Utah State and Nevada were the last teams to make up what is now a perfectly balanced MWC with two six-team divisions and a conference championship game.

 

[RobGriz]

Rob, it's a moot point. No need to even argue your point. The MWC doesn't want Montana. It's an indisputable fact. And those that say they'd rather watch Montana get rocked by 20-30 points by Boise State, Utah State, Nevada, Fresno State, Colorado State and Air Force are either lying, or are only looking at it short-term. If Montana were in the MWC, the I'd rather watch us get rocked by better schools Mantra would last about three games before the same people would want Stitt fired and Egriz would implode. If Egriz has taught us all one thing since its inception, NOTHING is EVER good enough for a select group of fans of the Montana Grizzly football program, and a move-up to the MWC wouldn't be good enough for long either.

Good GOD you're a drama queen. Of course THIS Montana team would get rocked by Boise or Utah State. When you move up, you recruit and attract a different level of athlete (well, at SOME positions, anyway--I'm pretty sure Wags, Holmes, Tripp, Coyle, etc. could all play and start for just about any MWC team), not to mention the additional 22 scholarships that might come in handy.

Perhaps if we were already in the MWC somebody like Matt Miller would have stayed in state instead of going to Boise...you know Matt Miller, right? The guy who is the ALL TIME LEADING RECEIVER for Boise State? The guy from Montana? Maybe Jesse Sims wouldn't have verballed to Oregon State. Maybe, because we'd be paying our coaches more, Wayne Tinkle would still be the basketball coach and Tres Tinkle would be playing HERE next year instead of Oregon State....the possibilities are endless, actually.

And honestly, if you're basing your entire perception of how Griz Nation would respond on the 4,000+ members (and about 150 regular posters) on eGriz, you've lost the argument before it even starts anyway. :roll:

Not sure we'd be able to pay our coaches THAT well...?

You mean OSU-well? Probably not....but if Tinks were making 4-5 times what he was making here, he might not have been so quick to listen to other offers.

True. But I think we'd always be a stepping stone to something bigger.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

We can all likely agree that there are a lot of ifs. And the thing driving everyone's opinion on whether it would be a good idea is derivative of how likely each person thinks our chances of success are.

 

[mcg]

Here is how I look at the budget question. I've read that UM's athletic budget is about $14 million. I've read that Colorado State's budget is $25 million. CSU is a middle of the pack MWC sort of athletic program, so something in the vicinity $25 million is required as an athletic budget, an increase of $11 million. That's a pretty big increase and the tab goes up every year. That's probably not a precise analysis, but I think it's a good picture of what an MWC athletic budget looks like.

On top of that there will be many millions of facilities upgrades needed. The Champions Center, Academic Center and softball fields are great starts, but I think many more would be required.

Does revenue go up in the MWC? Sure (plan on your football tickets doubling), but if you want to move up you've got to identify those $11 million.

 

[George Ferguson]

Yeah, I'm not saying that any Griz fan is wrong in their desire to move up. Personally, if the MWC calls Engstrom and Haslam and says you're in as soone as you meet every one of our requirements, then I will begin preparing myself for the day when the Griz play football in the MWC. I will never change how I feel about Montana football, or Montana athletics no matter who they play or what conference they play in. I sat through games against Carson-Newman and Minnesota-Duluth, two of Don Read's staple non-conference opponents.

So again, AZ and others are not wrong for wanting to move up, or wanting change or challenges or whatever. But, as is often the case with Egriz, while I'm willing to acknowledge that, that posters who are hungry to move up are not wrong for wanting to do so, it's usually never ok on the other side. Posters who enjoy the Big Sky Conference, who enjoy the FCS playoffs and are perfectly happy watching Montana compete at its present level, are immediatley blasted and told they think the earth is flat. It's classic Egriz.

Anyway, I'll say this last thing. I started this thread only to point out one area that Montana would have to change in order to join the MWC, and that's the total number of sports in the athletic department, and scholarship equity. Those are things that cannot be ignored or circumvented in any way shape or form. They have to be addressed before Montana would be allowed to join the MWC, and since everybody was jumping on their yearly "Boise State did it so why can't we" banter, I decided to point out this one aspect of a potential move up.

I' ll leave it at that.

 

[EverettGriz]

We're Montana. We'd have to suck.

God, I hate that small minded thinking.

 

[EverettGriz]

Guarantee games away from Missoula result in a lost home game, obviously.

We're playing those games anyway. Net loss to Missoula: Zero.

You really are a Windmill Chaser.

Well, I do enjoy Holland.

UM probably play more home games than any other FCS school. Probably isn't even close in the past 20 years.

UM does not play guarantee games every year. More like every 4 years.

Doesn't surprise me that you like the Red Light District.

With a 12 game schedule we'd still play the same number of home games. I know you're no math wiz, but....


And I dunno much about the red light district. But it likely bests the blue boy district that I suspect you may frequent from time to time.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Yeah, I'm not saying that any Griz fan is wrong in their desire to move up. Personally, if the MWC calls Engstrom and Haslam and says you're in as soone as you meet every one of our requirements, then I will begin preparing myself for the day when the Griz play football in the MWC. I will never change how I feel about Montana football, or Montana athletics no matter who they play or what conference they play in. I sat through games against Carson-Newman and Minnesota-Duluth, two of Don Read's staple non-conference opponents.

So again, AZ and others are not wrong for wanting to move up, or wanting change or challenges or whatever. But, as is often the case with Egriz, while I'm willing to acknowledge that, that posters who are hungry to move up are not wrong for wanting to do so, it's usually never ok on the other side. Posters who enjoy the Big Sky Conference, who enjoy the FCS playoffs and are perfectly happy watching Montana compete at its present level, are immediatley blasted and told they think the earth is flat. It's classic Egriz.

Anyway, I'll say this last thing. I started this thread only to point out one area that Montana would have to change in order to join the MWC, and that's the total number of sports in the athletic department, and scholarship equity. Those are things that cannot be ignored or circumvented in any way shape or form. They have to be addressed before Montana would be allowed to join the MWC, and since everybody was jumping on their yearly "Boise State did it so why can't we" banter, I decided to point out this one aspect of a potential move up.

I' ll leave it at that.

Hav, most pro-moveupers acknowledge that there are challenges, and I don't know a single one who expects that a move to the MWC would result in immediate conference championships. I also don't know a single one who wouldn't accept an adjustment period where we don't go 9-3 or 10-2 every year. It's perfectly fine and acceptable for you to support UM continuing to stay at FCS level for football. But stick to reasons that actually have merit: money, facilities, Title IX, etc., and not some mythical inability to attract recruits, compete at that level, etc.

But, regardless of all that, the landscape of college football IS changing. We can either get ready for that, or get left behind. Personally I'd rather get ready (as I said in a different post, have a damned plan).

 

[George Ferguson]

HAHA, the reasons in my OP are NOT the least bit mythical. AZ, you know I agree with a lot of what you post on here, but I'm starting to get the sense you haven't actually ready my OP or any of my subsequent posts. Even my last post, where for the THIRD TIME I stated my reason for starting this thread ot begin with. So I'll say it for a fourth time. My only intent was to point out that Montana presently doesn't have the number of sports or scholarship equity required for a move to the MWC. AZ, seriously, you should read my original post, I actually think it's quite informative.

Happy New Year

 

[AZGrizFan]

HAHA, the reasons in my OP are NOT the least bit mythical. AZ, you know I agree with a lot of what you post on here, but I'm starting to get the sense you haven't actually ready my OP or any of my subsequent posts. Even my last post, where for the THIRD TIME I stated my reason for starting this thread ot begin with. So I'll say it for a fourth time. My only intent was to point out that Montana presently doesn't have the number of sports or scholarship equity required for a move to the MWC. AZ, seriously, you should read my original post, I actually think it's quite informative.

Happy New Year

Hav, I apologize. I got wrapped up in arguing the mythical reaons with RobGriz. But I think you need to move away from the "the MWC doesn't want us". As I said earlier in the thread, what I want is a PLAN, so that when the day comes when we DO have to make a decision, whether it's the MWC or some other iteration (given the constant shifting of the college football world), we're ready to make that move. I DO think that the addition of women's softball, the Champions Center, etc., etc. are all moves in the right direction, and it's beginning to appear there might BE a plan which is awesome. But as people have pointed out multiple times, teams move up, but they never move back down....there's got to be a financial reason for that.

 

[Umista]

Some of you people should take a few hours and listen to Kent Haslam talk about the Griz budget, moving up, staying and all the other bs being tossed around on Egriz. Hell, even one 15 minute visit with him will put to rest much of the mis information being thrown around!

Hav did a pretty good job in his original post. Few of U got that!

 

[RobGriz]

HAHA, the reasons in my OP are NOT the least bit mythical. AZ, you know I agree with a lot of what you post on here, but I'm starting to get the sense you haven't actually ready my OP or any of my subsequent posts. Even my last post, where for the THIRD TIME I stated my reason for starting this thread ot begin with. So I'll say it for a fourth time. My only intent was to point out that Montana presently doesn't have the number of sports or scholarship equity required for a move to the MWC. AZ, seriously, you should read my original post, I actually think it's quite informative.

Happy New Year

Hav, I apologize. I got wrapped up in arguing the mythical reaons with RobGriz. But I think you need to move away from the "the MWC doesn't want us". As I said earlier in the thread, what I want is a PLAN, so that when the day comes when we DO have to make a decision, whether it's the MWC or some other iteration (given the constant shifting of the college football world), we're ready to make that move. I DO think that the addition of women's softball, the Champions Center, etc., etc. are all moves in the right direction, and it's beginning to appear there might BE a plan which is awesome. But as people have pointed out multiple times, teams move up, but they never move back down....there's got to be a financial reason for that.

I think there almost has to be some kind of a plan. At least the current additions seem to point that way but we have a ways to go yet and if our move up is handcuffed to MSU being able to move up at the same time it'll take some time. And you may not agree with my opinions but that doesn't make them mythical any more than it makes yours mythical, some would say that guaranteed success would be as mythical as guaranteed failure. I thought you and I were good...?