GrizMusician
Well-known member
Oh lawd. This thread is ridiculous. :shock::lol:
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DOJ announcement today at 11
- Thread starter BWahlberg
- Start date
tnt said:
Nope, you are completely wrong and confusing incidents. You are talking about the Dec. 2011 incident or incidents, which resulted in Engstrom bringing in the Barz to investigate and the Missoulian to start its witch hunt. This was Dec. 2011. The coaches did talk to all 65 players on the trip to the playoff game in SHS. However, the group blow job incident occurred in Dec. 2010, a year earlier and virtually no one knew about it. It didn't come to light until late Dec. 2011 or Jan. 2012.
Title IX is about women. If a male student is accused of rape, say by an unknown woman or by female non-student, it is not subject to Title IX.
I've been gone all day and this thread has more crap then the old dornbazer outhouses..
What exactly did UM lose if anything? What was the penalty?
What exactly did UM lose if anything? What was the penalty?
GrizMusician
Well-known member
Just face it everyone... the DOJ was just here as an excuse to vacation in our beautiful state... :lol:
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somehow UTL ?
unable to find any DOJ announcement on CNN/Sports Illustrated or Yahoo news ? Ms Florio ?
It seems only accusations or bad news is reported.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/ncaa/wires/?sct=uk_t2_a15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
unable to find any DOJ announcement on CNN/Sports Illustrated or Yahoo news ? Ms Florio ?
It seems only accusations or bad news is reported.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/ncaa/wires/?sct=uk_t2_a15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
UMGriz75
Well-known member
"In a letter sent yesterday to the University of Montana that explicitly states that it is intended as “a blueprint for colleges and universities throughout the country,” the Departments of Justice and Education have mandated a breathtakingly broad definition of sexual harassment that makes virtually every student in the United States a harasser while ignoring the First Amendment. The mandate applies to every college receiving federal funding—virtually every American institution of higher education nationwide, public or private.
"The letter states that “sexual harassment should be more broadly defined as ‘any unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature’” including “verbal conduct” (that is, speech). It then explicitly states that allegedly harassing expression need not even be offensive to an “objectively reasonable person of the same gender in the same situation”—if the listener takes offense to sexually related speech for any reason, no matter how irrationally or unreasonably, the speaker may be punished.
"This result directly contradicts previous Department of Education guidance on sexual harassment. In 2003, the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights (OCR) stated that harassment “must include something beyond the mere expression of views, words, symbols or thoughts that some person finds offensive.” Further, the letter made clear that “OCR’s standards require that the conduct be evaluated from the perspective of a reasonable person in the alleged victim’s position, considering all the circumstances, including the alleged victim’s age.”
"Among the forms of expression now punishable on America’s campuses by order of the federal government are:
"The letter states that “sexual harassment should be more broadly defined as ‘any unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature’” including “verbal conduct” (that is, speech). It then explicitly states that allegedly harassing expression need not even be offensive to an “objectively reasonable person of the same gender in the same situation”—if the listener takes offense to sexually related speech for any reason, no matter how irrationally or unreasonably, the speaker may be punished.
"This result directly contradicts previous Department of Education guidance on sexual harassment. In 2003, the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights (OCR) stated that harassment “must include something beyond the mere expression of views, words, symbols or thoughts that some person finds offensive.” Further, the letter made clear that “OCR’s standards require that the conduct be evaluated from the perspective of a reasonable person in the alleged victim’s position, considering all the circumstances, including the alleged victim’s age.”
"Among the forms of expression now punishable on America’s campuses by order of the federal government are:
- Any expression related to sexual topics that offends any person. This leaves a wide range of expressive activity—a campus performance of “The Vagina Monologues,” a presentation on safe sex practices, a debate about sexual morality, a discussion of gay marriage, or a classroom lecture on Vladimir Nabokov’s Lolita—subject to discipline.
Any sexually themed joke overheard by any person who finds that joke offensive for any reason.
Any request for dates or any flirtation that is not welcomed by the recipient of such a request or flirtation.
Jerry Punch
Well-known member
UMGriz75 said:
When dishonest posters like you compare UM's stats to MSU's stats while hinting at possible wrongdoings at MSU while being unable to admit as much, it is beyond ridiculous. The lesson I learned in the 3rd grade was that it makes you look like a tool to ask a question in response to a first pointed question.
Tool away, UmGriz75.
UMGriz75
Well-known member
You must be a bitter little man; that MSU's high rates of forcible sexual assault means "nothing," -- ask the women, "they'' likely would say that high rates of sexual violence means somebody IS doing something wrong -- but that UM's problems with astonishingly high rates of false reports means, "UM is doing something wrong." It is: it is not pursuing false reports with nearly the enthusiasm that it now says it will promote them.Jerry Punch said:
Paytonlives said:
Glad to see some coming around to see this is a really big deal so to answer you:
An elimination of most Student rights (75 outlined that extremely well and as much as it pains me to say was right on.)
The University will now pay for an independent full time in house auditor in addition to an unspecified outside community agencey (YWCA?to monitor how theyinstitute the "changes" over the next 2 years and assure the DOJ they have been done.
They will totally revamp the University Police department and investigative services in addition to support services.
Literally thousands of hours of training for employees and additional job descriptions (that may or may not entail new hires)
ANYBODY who says these results aren't a big deal with far reaching effects and costs of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars) is crazy. They can't plant a dang tree over there without a feasibility study costing a bajillion dollars.
I wasn't looking for a rape debate. I merely stated early on this was a big deal and it is. The DOJ found plenty to comment on and plenty to justify these changes. These changes are huge and expen$ive, and not thing one we can do about it. Agreeing was the ea$ier way to go.
PR and the bunch can rationalize this all they want but its still deep doo with the potential for some real problems.
GrizMusician
Well-known member
UMGriz75 said:
Yikes. After reading this I am glad that I am no longer a student at UM. :shock:
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UMGriz75
Well-known member
And he has acquiesced, in order to obtain a cheap agreement that offered no proof of anything, and got him an "attaboy" award from the local progressives, to the sacrifice of the freedoms of his students, making each one, at some point, likely a criminal. He had to do nothing; they lose everything.
That is Engstrom. At a key opportunity to stand up for his students and protect their fundamental rights, as well as the honor of his institution, he caved because he was offered a piece of paper that said, about something that didn't happen, "don't do it again." In return for that, the University of Montana becomes a complicit agent of a far-Left Justice Department that has finally criminalized "thought crimes" that will target a specific class and gender of students. UM has placed itself squarely as an "enemy of the students" by criminalizing their daily behavior.
This is representative of the damage that "leaders" like Engstrom inflict, drip by drip, on a community; sacrificing his own integrity and condemning his students to endless accusations based on hearsay, of comments that merely "offend," making the young people he ought to be defending into permanent victims of his own mendacity.
grizfromhel
Well-known member
UMGriz75---- thank you for your clear and cogent statements. A terrible injustice is being done at UM---the effects of which will only become clear in the future. What a gutless wonder Mr. Engstrom has shown himself to be----really appalling. We need a new thread that is titled "Royce Rolls".
What a bunch of politicized busybodies from the Justice Department, including Thomas Perez who is now Obama's nominee to be in his Cabinet as Secretary of Labor. Did you hear the news report yesterday that the Pentagon is concerned about over 26,000 sexual assaults that they believe occured in the military? And yet here is the Justice Department out in Missoula, Montana, spending immense amounts of time and resources to pursue six claims of sexual assault, only one of which has amounted to a criminal judgment.
I do believe that the compliance costs of the agreement with DOJ are substantial and that on that basis alone Royce Engstrom failed to fairly represent the taxpayers of this state. The guy is a total loser in my book.
What a bunch of politicized busybodies from the Justice Department, including Thomas Perez who is now Obama's nominee to be in his Cabinet as Secretary of Labor. Did you hear the news report yesterday that the Pentagon is concerned about over 26,000 sexual assaults that they believe occured in the military? And yet here is the Justice Department out in Missoula, Montana, spending immense amounts of time and resources to pursue six claims of sexual assault, only one of which has amounted to a criminal judgment.
I do believe that the compliance costs of the agreement with DOJ are substantial and that on that basis alone Royce Engstrom failed to fairly represent the taxpayers of this state. The guy is a total loser in my book.
UMGriz75
Well-known member
Eugene Volokh offers a useful summary of just how far-reaching these "standards" are, and of course they had nothing to do with anything that actually happened (and mostly didn't happen) at UM. There were three sexual assaults, and the one committed by an athlete was appropriately prosecuted, he pleaded guilty, and he went to prison.
The other two sexual assaults which, unlike the athlete, occurred on campus, directly involved the University and its supervision of its students, and involved directed violence, were perpetrated by the same person who happened to be Saudi and Muslim and was given something like a free trip home. The Justice Department oddly didn't have too much to say about THAT one.
Sexual harassment wasn't even the issue at UM. However, consistent with this DOJ, it was merely the camel's nose under the tent, they couldn't really find anything, so in return for patting Engstrom on the head and saying they didn't really have anything they could find at UM that was egregious, in return for the head pat, Engstrom sacrificed entirely the free speech rights of students and faculty.
Engstrom, while signing away the human rights of others, smiled at the press conference for himself.
What a hero.
The other two sexual assaults which, unlike the athlete, occurred on campus, directly involved the University and its supervision of its students, and involved directed violence, were perpetrated by the same person who happened to be Saudi and Muslim and was given something like a free trip home. The Justice Department oddly didn't have too much to say about THAT one.
Sexual harassment wasn't even the issue at UM. However, consistent with this DOJ, it was merely the camel's nose under the tent, they couldn't really find anything, so in return for patting Engstrom on the head and saying they didn't really have anything they could find at UM that was egregious, in return for the head pat, Engstrom sacrificed entirely the free speech rights of students and faculty.
Engstrom, while signing away the human rights of others, smiled at the press conference for himself.
What a hero.
Grisly Fan
Well-known member
After reading this, I had to be sure my calendar doesn't read 1984. Face it, the government would be happy to be able to label everyone as criminals then they can "legitimately" selectively prosecute anyone when it suits their political purposes. If that doesn't concern you then simply strap on your feed bag and be happy.
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