Do Griz need this W for recruiting, especially in state?

[signedbewildered]

Well someone shot us in the foot at least.

 

[griz4life]

Conversely, UM could pick up two MT kids on split scholarship and not offer as many out of state kids.
Or, UM could appeal it's self proposed scholarship loss. EWU appealed its sanctions two months after they were imposed. Those sanctions were lifted.

It would be nice to try that except my understanding is the NCAA doesn't allow appeals on self-imposed penalties. We're stuck with it. We shot ourselves in the foot here.

"We" didn't have anything to do with it.

 

[mtgrizrule]

Conversely, UM could pick up two MT kids on split scholarship and not offer as many out of state kids.
Or, UM could appeal it's self proposed scholarship loss. EWU appealed its sanctions two months after they were imposed. Those sanctions were lifted.

It would be nice to try that except my understanding is the NCAA doesn't allow appeals on self-imposed penalties. We're stuck with it. We shot ourselves in the foot here.

"We" didn't have anything to do with it.

Engstrom shot us in the foot. I doubt any appeal will do any good now. I thought an appeal was in store at some point.

 

['68griz]

I don't care what Gunnar Brekke said in public, the NCAA investigation scared him off way more than he fell in love with MSU. And I can't blame him at all for that. As a kid planning the next four to five years around college football, words like NCAA Investigation and Playoff Ban would have scared me off too. I don't begrudge him switching his mind at all, but I believe UM will be fine in the in-state battle regardless of the outcome Saturday. Besides, the three kids the Cats and Griz want the most this February, Cook, Collins and Dissley, aren't choosing EITHER school.

I don't know what I want more...the Griz to roll the scats for the next four years to shut their bitter little fans up, or so Brekke has to hear about never beating the Griz for the rest of his life...

Oh, I like both your scenarios, Stubbins.

 

[grizfan95]

Debbie Downer post to follow:

A win or loss doesn't matter for in-state recruiting because the UM has voluntarily put itself in a position where it really can't offer many in-state kids anymore, at least for the next 4 years.

The UM voluntarily offered up 4 scholarships to the NCAA. Think about what that means for in-state recruits. Unless it's one of the top few kids many others come in on partial scholarships. With 4 schollies per year that's anywhere from 4 to 8 to maybe even 10 or 12 in-state kids they could have either offered full rides or partials. For the next four years, that opportunity is lost.

Now look at who we have graduating, we've got 13 seniors with just 4 in-state kids. Since I can't guess who is and who isn't on a full ride, a share, or a walk-on for simplicity's sake lets say there's 13 schollies coming free (although I'll be it's less).

The last article I saw (which I've heard was not totally accurate, but it's the best we've got to go off) said the Griz this year were using about 61 of their 63 alloted scholarships. But next year they're only be able to use 59, so they're going to have let 2 more spots go unfilled. So the 13 free schollies cuts down to 11.


Now look at the recruiting thread, the Griz have already landed 6 verbals, 4 out of state vs 2 in state. Lets keep it simple again and say the 4 out of staters have a full ride and the 2 in-staters are sharing a half-schollie. So 5 are used up. That takes the 11 schollies and drops them down to 6.

So now we're at 6 scholarships remaining. With every freshman class there's what's known as "preferred freshman" who are given the chance to get a part of an early scholarship when a new one frees up. There's also current players on partials that have a promise/commitment for a boosted up proportion of scholarship. It's probably a low estimate but between the RS frosh, the walk-ons, and the commitments to boost up schollies lets say that chews up 3 more scholarships. We're now down to 3 left.

3 scholarships. Think that'll go to splitting between some borderline MT kids, walk-ons, or preferred freshman? Or will this go to 3 kids (in state or out of state) that are the 3 best recruits they can find that might have a better chance to fill a need right away?

Sadly, for the borderline (borderline FCS talent coming out of high school - not the way they're finishing / or have finished their FCS careers) MT kids the Wagenmann's, Mariani's, and Anderson's of Montana - the Griz will probably not be able to make as many commitments for partials or preferred walk-on scholarships, where the Cats can.

You do know that we didn't use approximately 2 scholarships and usually don't, right? Really we're only short about 2 scholarships per year.

 

[BWahlberg]

Debbie Downer post to follow:

A win or loss doesn't matter for in-state recruiting because the UM has voluntarily put itself in a position where it really can't offer many in-state kids anymore, at least for the next 4 years.

The UM voluntarily offered up 4 scholarships to the NCAA. Think about what that means for in-state recruits. Unless it's one of the top few kids many others come in on partial scholarships. With 4 schollies per year that's anywhere from 4 to 8 to maybe even 10 or 12 in-state kids they could have either offered full rides or partials. For the next four years, that opportunity is lost.

Now look at who we have graduating, we've got 13 seniors with just 4 in-state kids. Since I can't guess who is and who isn't on a full ride, a share, or a walk-on for simplicity's sake lets say there's 13 schollies coming free (although I'll be it's less).

The last article I saw (which I've heard was not totally accurate, but it's the best we've got to go off) said the Griz this year were using about 61 of their 63 alloted scholarships. But next year they're only be able to use 59, so they're going to have let 2 more spots go unfilled. So the 13 free schollies cuts down to 11.


Now look at the recruiting thread, the Griz have already landed 6 verbals, 4 out of state vs 2 in state. Lets keep it simple again and say the 4 out of staters have a full ride and the 2 in-staters are sharing a half-schollie. So 5 are used up. That takes the 11 schollies and drops them down to 6.

So now we're at 6 scholarships remaining. With every freshman class there's what's known as "preferred freshman" who are given the chance to get a part of an early scholarship when a new one frees up. There's also current players on partials that have a promise/commitment for a boosted up proportion of scholarship. It's probably a low estimate but between the RS frosh, the walk-ons, and the commitments to boost up schollies lets say that chews up 3 more scholarships. We're now down to 3 left.

3 scholarships. Think that'll go to splitting between some borderline MT kids, walk-ons, or preferred freshman? Or will this go to 3 kids (in state or out of state) that are the 3 best recruits they can find that might have a better chance to fill a need right away?

Sadly, for the borderline (borderline FCS talent coming out of high school - not the way they're finishing / or have finished their FCS careers) MT kids the Wagenmann's, Mariani's, and Anderson's of Montana - the Griz will probably not be able to make as many commitments for partials or preferred walk-on scholarships, where the Cats can.

You do know that we didn't use approximately 2 scholarships and usually don't, right? Really we're only short about 2 scholarships per year.

I did yeah, put the comment in my original post in bold

 

[griz4life]

Conversely, UM could pick up two MT kids on split scholarship and not offer as many out of state kids.
Or, UM could appeal it's self proposed scholarship loss. EWU appealed its sanctions two months after they were imposed. Those sanctions were lifted.

It would be nice to try that except my understanding is the NCAA doesn't allow appeals on self-imposed penalties. We're stuck with it. We shot ourselves in the foot here.

Looking at appeals of self imposed scholarship losses, I see that Boise State imposed scholarship losses in five different sports Sept. 13, 2011 then appealed those losses June 29, 2012. The appeals committee sent the case back to enforcement. The losses were reaffirmed by the enforcement committee on Oct. 10, 2012 but not because they couldnt be appealed. In fact the reaffirmation ruling indicates the issue could be brought to the appeals board yet again.
There is nothing under the new enforcement rules that indicates self imposed penalties can no longer be appealed.

 

[live4dagriz]

Conversely, UM could pick up two MT kids on split scholarship and not offer as many out of state kids.
Or, UM could appeal it's self proposed scholarship loss. EWU appealed its sanctions two months after they were imposed. Those sanctions were lifted.

It would be nice to try that except my understanding is the NCAA doesn't allow appeals on self-imposed penalties. We're stuck with it. We shot ourselves in the foot here.

Looking at appeals of self imposed scholarship losses, I see that Boise State imposed scholarship losses in five different sports Sept. 13, 2011 then appealed those losses June 29, 2012. The appeals committee sent the case back to enforcement. The losses were reaffirmed by the enforcement committee on Oct. 10, 2012 but not because they couldnt be appealed. In fact the reaffirmation ruling indicates the issue could be brought to the appeals board yet again.
There is nothing under the new enforcement rules that indicates self imposed penalties can no longer be appealed.

Yes but do we have an athletic department or university administration that's motivated to appeal? Not trying to talk smack on RE or KH, genuinely asking.

 

[Thurman Murman]

Debbie Downer post to follow:

A win or loss doesn't matter for in-state recruiting because the UM has voluntarily put itself in a position where it really can't offer many in-state kids anymore, at least for the next 4 years.

The UM voluntarily offered up 4 scholarships to the NCAA. Think about what that means for in-state recruits. Unless it's one of the top few kids many others come in on partial scholarships. With 4 schollies per year that's anywhere from 4 to 8 to maybe even 10 or 12 in-state kids they could have either offered full rides or partials. For the next four years, that opportunity is lost.

Now look at who we have graduating, we've got 13 seniors with just 4 in-state kids. Since I can't guess who is and who isn't on a full ride, a share, or a walk-on for simplicity's sake lets say there's 13 schollies coming free (although I'll be it's less).

The last article I saw (which I've heard was not totally accurate, but it's the best we've got to go off) said the Griz this year were using about 61 of their 63 alloted scholarships. But next year they're only be able to use 59, so they're going to have let 2 more spots go unfilled. So the 13 free schollies cuts down to 11.


Now look at the recruiting thread, the Griz have already landed 6 verbals, 4 out of state vs 2 in state. Lets keep it simple again and say the 4 out of staters have a full ride and the 2 in-staters are sharing a half-schollie. So 5 are used up. That takes the 11 schollies and drops them down to 6.

So now we're at 6 scholarships remaining. With every freshman class there's what's known as "preferred freshman" who are given the chance to get a part of an early scholarship when a new one frees up. There's also current players on partials that have a promise/commitment for a boosted up proportion of scholarship. It's probably a low estimate but between the RS frosh, the walk-ons, and the commitments to boost up schollies lets say that chews up 3 more scholarships. We're now down to 3 left.

3 scholarships. Think that'll go to splitting between some borderline MT kids, walk-ons, or preferred freshman? Or will this go to 3 kids (in state or out of state) that are the 3 best recruits they can find that might have a better chance to fill a need right away?

Sadly, for the borderline (borderline FCS talent coming out of high school - not the way they're finishing / or have finished their FCS careers) MT kids the Wagenmann's, Mariani's, and Anderson's of Montana - the Griz will probably not be able to make as many commitments for partials or preferred walk-on scholarships, where the Cats can.

This... Brint is spot on. I would not expect much if any more scholarship in state recruits that haven't already committed. Griz are damn near done with recruiting before the season even ends. Simply not very many scholarships this year due in part to engstrom willing to roll over and take it from the NCAA.

 

[Grizbeer]

A win or loss doesn't matter for in-state recruiting because the UM has voluntarily put itself in a position where it really can't offer many in-state kids anymore, at least for the next 4 years.

The UM voluntarily offered up 4 scholarships to the NCAA. Think about what that means for in-state recruits. Unless it's one of the top few kids many others come in on partial scholarships. With 4 schollies per year that's anywhere from 4 to 8 to maybe even 10 or 12 in-state kids they could have either offered full rides or partials. For the next four years, that opportunity is lost.

Scholarship losses are for 3 years, 2014/15 academic year to 2016/17 academic year, so a recruit this year who redshirts could get 2 years of full scholarships when the sanctions come off. Isn't that about what Mariani and other Montana kids have received through the years?

 

[griz4life]

Conversely, UM could pick up two MT kids on split scholarship and not offer as many out of state kids.
Or, UM could appeal it's self proposed scholarship loss. EWU appealed its sanctions two months after they were imposed. Those sanctions were lifted.

It would be nice to try that except my understanding is the NCAA doesn't allow appeals on self-imposed penalties. We're stuck with it. We shot ourselves in the foot here.

Looking at appeals of self imposed scholarship losses, I see that Boise State imposed scholarship losses in five different sports Sept. 13, 2011 then appealed those losses June 29, 2012. The appeals committee sent the case back to enforcement. The losses were reaffirmed by the enforcement committee on Oct. 10, 2012 but not because they couldnt be appealed. In fact the reaffirmation ruling indicates the issue could be brought to the appeals board yet again.
There is nothing under the new enforcement rules that indicates self imposed penalties can no longer be appealed.

Yes but do we have an athletic department or university administration that's motivated to appeal? Not trying to talk smack on RE or KH, genuinely asking.

Exactly! I haven't personally heard anyone with UM saying self-imposed penalties can't be appealed, but if that's what fans are being told then shame on UM.
In addition to Boise, a search of the NCAA website produced two other universitys' appeals of self-imposed penalties in the last couple years.
An appeal of all four scholarships isn't the only option. Why not try to get one or two back, which would seem worthwhile given that as BW points out one scholarship can provide partial aid to two or three Montana kids.

 

[GrizPony]

Poole is only on 1/2 scholly now and should have his full returned next year. That's 1/2 less that will be available.

 

[rcscott]

I attended the last 2 junior days (2 years) with a friends boy. When the parents were separated for a different presentation they addressed this issue.
Everyone expects their kid to get a full ride right??? That doesn't happen and partials are a common thing. The clincher is the team they have for academic scholarships which make up for the partials. It was portrayed as having alot of options for players only receiving partials. Made sense to me.
So I don't view the "full-ride" as being the end all be all.
The one recruit that I went with 5 years ago was more impressed with the game day experience at WaGriz. After that game I asked him what he thought. His words." If they offer half, I'm coming." He ended up on full.

 

[StumptownGriz]

I think it goes without saying that a Brawl of the Wild "W" is needed for in state recruiting, but this year I believe it's even more important than most. We need a statement win to remind all the instate kids who big bro is.

 

[mcg]

Conversely, UM could pick up two MT kids on split scholarship and not offer as many out of state kids.
Or, UM could appeal it's self proposed scholarship loss. EWU appealed its sanctions two months after they were imposed. Those sanctions were lifted.

It would be nice to try that except my understanding is the NCAA doesn't allow appeals on self-imposed penalties. We're stuck with it. We shot ourselves in the foot here.

Looking at appeals of self imposed scholarship losses, I see that Boise State imposed scholarship losses in five different sports Sept. 13, 2011 then appealed those losses June 29, 2012. The appeals committee sent the case back to enforcement. The losses were reaffirmed by the enforcement committee on Oct. 10, 2012 but not because they couldnt be appealed. In fact the reaffirmation ruling indicates the issue could be brought to the appeals board yet again.
There is nothing under the new enforcement rules that indicates self imposed penalties can no longer be appealed.

I wonder if the coaches and administration simply want to start the sanctions and get them over with as soon as possible.

 

[krammer]

I hope we will keep a full scholarship available for kids who can play corner back at this level....whether instate, out of state, junior college, bsd transfer or true freshman....we all keep a little "mad money",... lets hold it back and available for someone special...

 

[Buttegrizzle]

Re Cook. All y'all know I followed this kid's two years at Butte High, but to date I have not seen that anyone offered him outside of UM and MSU. The fact we got a commit from Weyer and appear to have a full stable of QBs might make UM less attractive to him. The kid is a phenom talent wise and physically but I can't say if he is college ready or not. Seems odd he hasn't verbaled yet. I hope he is smart enough not go blue and suffer four years of pain and humiliation. I'm still hoping he surprises us and goes Griz. But for the love of Pete get Dalton Daum next year.

 

[1972]

Beating your rival always helps recruiting!!

 

[tnt]

I attended the last 2 junior days (2 years) with a friends boy. When the parents were separated for a different presentation they addressed this issue.
Everyone expects their kid to get a full ride right??? That doesn't happen and partials are a common thing. The clincher is the team they have for academic scholarships which make up for the partials. It was portrayed as having alot of options for players only receiving partials. Made sense to me.
So I don't view the "full-ride" as being the end all be all.
The one recruit that I went with 5 years ago was more impressed with the game day experience at WaGriz. After that game I asked him what he thought. His words." If they offer half, I'm coming." He ended up on full.

Thats probably pretty accurate. I sent two through school on athletic scholarships. I don't know how UM works it, but my boy went to a Private ND school. The athletic scholarship started after his financial aid, academic scholarship, a couple of private scholarships etc etc. In any event everything ended up covered. My daughter went to an FBS school in Kansas. Same thing. As a freshman I believe she sang in the concert choir. Again she never paid a dime for school but wasn't on a full ride athletic scholarship until her Jr. Year. They were tennis players, but I can't imagine its any different with any sport. If they want you there is a way........ By the same token they picked the schools they wanted to go to and found a way.

 

[JayLarson]

How bout a few kids from Savage? That 6 man team is really tearing it up this season. Gotta have talent in there to put up 90+ points twice this season.

You must not have been to many six man games, with there being no 45 point rule anymore teams can put up scores like that, some 8 man teams scored 90 plus this year too.