Damian Lillard

[garizzalies]

I was wondering when you neanderthals would reduce this conversation into a cocaine thing. It actually took longer than I expected. I am NOT saying MRR is clearly the best player from the Big Sky Conference, but I actually posited stats to let people make their own decision. We are so "NOW" -based and we forget ppl so quickly. Please give more consideration to MRR before you make a fool of yourselves, is all I ask.

Call me a neanderthal all you want, but it WAS the “cocaine thing” that cost MMR a career that had the potential to be “Dr. J-like”....he had a ceiling that would have made this discussion a joke. Instead, he snorted it away and now this IS a discussion because of that. So, like it or not, the “cocaine thing” does play a part in it all...

If we’re talking about the best nba player from the BSC, that’s Dame, all day. It’s a team sport, so you can’t have this convo without discussing them in the context of being a teammate. Assuming their stats were equal, who would you rather have as a teammate: a raging crackhead or Dame, who could possibly be the best human being in all of professional sports?

 

[Gaeilge1]

I haven't weighed in on this debate for a little while, but two things are becoming very clear about whose side one is on. If you are A Damian supporter you are equating offensive prowess with being the best. If you are supporting MRR, you are looking at a number of the statistics to determine who was the best.
The best scorer to come out of the BSC is Damian Lillard, but the best overall basketball player is MRR, who was a much better defender and rebounded than Lillard. To my knowledge, Damian Lillard has never led the league in any statistical category. MRR did so at least three times, leading the league in both assists and steals during the 1979-80 season!
As a human being there may be no comparison, but as a pro basketball player, in all facets of the game, MRR is still the best to come out of the BSC.

 

[garizzalies]

You got one thing right: there are two groups. The Dame supporters are smart and the MRR are..... I’m searching for my nicest qualifier......old?
Dame was first team all nba. Let me say it again. First. Team. All. NBA.
Damian Lillard's name was right next to LeBron James, Anthony Davis, James Harden, and Kevin Durant.
You don’t make 1st team being only an offensive player. For gods sake look at the other guards he beat out for that spot—all better than MRR.
Did MRR ever make first team? IDK, but I highly doubt it. If not, I’m sure you old boys know better than whoever picks the 1st team

 

[grizzlyjournal]

I personally watched every game Micheal Ray Richardson played in Missoula. Great fun, but the only post-season play he logged for the Griz was in 1975, as a frosh on Montana's win over Utah St. and losses to UCLA and UNLV in the NCAA tourney. The following year (Heathcote's last in ZooTown) Montana was a flat 13-12 and finished out their season with 4 losses before beating the Cats. It was even worse in 76-77 (Jim Brandenburg's first year) because the Grizzlies had to forfeit 15 games because incoming transfer, Lee Johnson, was academically ineligible. And MRR's final season. the Griz ended up losing the Big Sky Conf. title game in Missoula to... Weber State. The Wildcats simply shut down a seemingly lethargic Micheal Ray... holding the Griz to 55 points in OT.

I also watched every game Damian Lillard played in Missoula over 3 seasons. Tables turned as Will Cherry, Kareem Jamar stole the action.

Regardless, both were fascinating to watch. Both unique as college players. Both dominated the action while on the floor. Happy to have watched both, and fun to be able to follow Damian with the Trail Blazers. No need for me to decide who was better.

P.S. The guy I thought was going to be as good as Micheal Ray was a freshman, Herb Jones (1984-85), who was killed in a car wreck traveling from Spanaway, Washington to Missoula before his sophomore year started. Herb's freshman season as a Griz was stellar.

 

[PlayerRep]

From MRR's wiki:

4× NBA All-Star (1980–1982, 1985)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1980, 1981)
3× NBA steals leader (1980, 1983, 1985)
NBA assists leader (1980)


MRR was the 4th pick in the draft, 2 slots ahead of Larry Bird. Think Bird was rookie of the year.

 

[garizzalies]

From MRR's wiki:

4× NBA All-Star (1980–1982, 1985)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1980, 1981)
3× NBA steals leader (1980, 1983, 1985)
NBA assists leader (1980)


MRR was the 4th pick in the draft, 2 slots ahead of Larry Bird. Think Bird was rookie of the year.

But not first team all nba?
So if Sugar was never considered the best guard at his position in all his nba days, and Dame is today, how this is still an argument?
You guys have to realize, our generation only knows the behind the music version of Sugar, not the nostalgia from before Sugar discovered sugar

 

[AZGrizFan]

From MRR's wiki:

4× NBA All-Star (1980–1982, 1985)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1980, 1981)
3× NBA steals leader (1980, 1983, 1985)
NBA assists leader (1980)


MRR was the 4th pick in the draft, 2 slots ahead of Larry Bird. Think Bird was rookie of the year.

So if Sugar was never considered the best guard at his position in all his nba days, and Dame is today, how this is still an argument?

Weaker competition and bigger whiners? :lol: If Lillard played in MRR’s NBA he’d have gotten killed.

 

[sacstateman]

From MRR's wiki:

4× NBA All-Star (1980–1982, 1985)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1980, 1981)
3× NBA steals leader (1980, 1983, 1985)
NBA assists leader (1980)


MRR was the 4th pick in the draft, 2 slots ahead of Larry Bird. Think Bird was rookie of the year.

Bird didn't sign until after the next college season because he was eligible for the draft but still had college eligibility too....something to do with his going to Indiana but never playing there....in fact, he didn't even finish a semester at IU.....he ended up being the rookie of the year for the '79 - '80 season....Oh, and BTW, Lillard was drafted 6th in '12 and was named ROY unanimously....I am older than MRR also....saw him in the NBA many times.....Dame is the best BSC to ever play in the NBA....MRR edges Dame in assist/gm by .7 (a virtual tie)....MRR edges Dame in reb/gm by 1.2 (not much difference but it is more).....MRR edges Dame in steal/gm by 1.6 (a clear win for MRR)....Dame crushes MRR in pt/gm by 9.7 (clear win for Dame)....These stats are for an almost identical number of games in the NBA and Dame is at his peak right now....The difference will only get more obvious as the years pile up.....Another thing is that MRR was reinstated to the NBA but never even tried to play in the league again...not something that looks very good either....

 

[Gaeilge1]

MRR was selected first team all defense at least once and possibly twice! You can argue you want about how much better athletically the league is today as compared to yesteryear, but let's not forget that Sugar played in the same era as Magic, Bird, Isaiah and Kareem! All of them would certainly stand out in today's game.

 

[mtgrizrule]

You got one thing right: there are two groups. The Dame supporters are smart and the MRR are..... I’m searching for my nicest qualifier......old?
Dame was first team all nba. Let me say it again. First. Team. All. NBA.
Damian Lillard's name was right next to LeBron James, Anthony Davis, James Harden, and Kevin Durant.
You don’t make 1st team being only an offensive player. For gods sake look at the other guards he beat out for that spot—all better than MRR.
Did MRR ever make first team? IDK, but I highly doubt it. If not, I’m sure you old boys know better than whoever picks the 1st team

Uh, Harden plays very little defense. He's also a ball hog. I cannot watch the Houston Hardens because of him. Carry on.

 

[PlayerRep]

From MRR's wiki:

4× NBA All-Star (1980–1982, 1985)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1980, 1981)
3× NBA steals leader (1980, 1983, 1985)
NBA assists leader (1980)


MRR was the 4th pick in the draft, 2 slots ahead of Larry Bird. Think Bird was rookie of the year.

Bird didn't sign until after the next college season because he was eligible for the draft but still had college eligibility too....something to do with his going to Indiana but never playing there....in fact, he didn't even finish a semester at IU.....he ended up being the rookie of the year for the '79 - '80 season....Oh, and BTW, Lillard was drafted 6th in '12 and was named ROY unanimously....I am older than MRR also....saw him in the NBA many times.....Dame is the best BSC to ever play in the NBA....MRR edges Dame in assist/gm by .7 (a virtual tie)....MRR edges Dame in reb/gm by 1.2 (not much difference but it is more).....MRR edges Dame in steal/gm by 1.6 (a clear win for MRR)....Dame crushes MRR in pt/gm by 9.7 (clear win for Dame)....These stats are for an almost identical number of games in the NBA and Dame is at his peak right now....The difference will only get more obvious as the years pile up.....Another thing is that MRR was reinstated to the NBA but never even tried to play in the league again...not something that looks very good either....

Not sure what you are trying to say, but Bird was picked 6th in year when MRR was picked 4th, and Bird was Rookie of the Year.

 

[Kabooom]

I personally watched every game Micheal Ray Richardson played in Missoula. Great fun, but the only post-season play he logged for the Griz was in 1975, as a frosh on Montana's win over Utah St. and losses to UCLA and UNLV in the NCAA tourney. The following year (Heathcote's last in ZooTown) Montana was a flat 13-12 and finished out their season with 4 losses before beating the Cats. It was even worse in 76-77 (Jim Brandenburg's first year) because the Grizzlies had to forfeit 15 games because incoming transfer, Lee Johnson, was academically ineligible. And MRR's final season. the Griz ended up losing the Big Sky Conf. title game in Missoula to...** Weber State. The Wildcats simply shut down a seemingly lethargic Micheal Ray... holding the Griz to 55 points in OT.**

I also watched every game Damian Lillard played in Missoula over 3 seasons. Tables turned as Will Cherry, Kareem Jamar stole the action.

Regardless, both were fascinating to watch. Both unique as college players. Both dominated the action while on the floor. Happy to have watched both, and fun to be able to follow Damian with the Trail Blazers. No need for me to decide who was better.

P.S. The guy I thought was going to be as good as Micheal Ray was a freshman, Herb Jones (1984-85), who was killed in a car wreck traveling from Spanaway, Washington to Missoula before his sophomore year started. Herb's freshman season as a Griz was stellar.

**Michael Ray played that game with a case of influenza

 

[grizzlyjournal]

I personally watched every game Micheal Ray Richardson played in Missoula. Great fun, but the only post-season play he logged for the Griz was in 1975, as a frosh on Montana's win over Utah St. and losses to UCLA and UNLV in the NCAA tourney. The following year (Heathcote's last in ZooTown) Montana was a flat 13-12 and finished out their season with 4 losses before beating the Cats. It was even worse in 76-77 (Jim Brandenburg's first year) because the Grizzlies had to forfeit 15 games because incoming transfer, Lee Johnson, was academically ineligible. And MRR's final season. the Griz ended up losing the Big Sky Conf. title game in Missoula to...** Weber State. The Wildcats simply shut down a seemingly lethargic Micheal Ray... holding the Griz to 55 points in OT.**

I also watched every game Damian Lillard played in Missoula over 3 seasons. Tables turned as Will Cherry, Kareem Jamar stole the action.

Regardless, both were fascinating to watch. Both unique as college players. Both dominated the action while on the floor. Happy to have watched both, and fun to be able to follow Damian with the Trail Blazers. No need for me to decide who was better.

P.S. The guy I thought was going to be as good as Micheal Ray was a freshman, Herb Jones (1984-85), who was killed in a car wreck traveling from Spanaway, Washington to Missoula before his sophomore year started. Herb's freshman season as a Griz was stellar.

**Michael Ray played that game with a case of influenza

I was never aware of that.

 

[garizzalies]

MRR was selected first team all defense at least once and possibly twice! You can argue you want about how much better athletically the league is today as compared to yesteryear, but let's not forget that Sugar played in the same era as Magic, Bird, Isaiah and Kareem! All of them would certainly stand out in today's game.

1st team all nba > 1st team all defense.
Is this really that hard to understand?

We will likely never see another first teamer from the BSC again. Never again.
Hell I would be shocked if we got a 2nd or 3rd teamer (awards Dame previously received).

Like the contemporaries of Sugar you named, Dame actually made the list with the best, and did not just “play in the same era.”
You old dudes are arguing nostalgia and your dislike for the modern game, not really the merits. If you put your bias aside, you might realize not only that Dame is the best nba player from, but also the best ambassador of, the BSC. He speaks very highly of Weber and the BSC, unlike MRR’s 30-for-30 story. I don’t get it

 

[UncleRico]

MRR was selected first team all defense at least once and possibly twice! You can argue you want about how much better athletically the league is today as compared to yesteryear, but let's not forget that Sugar played in the same era as Magic, Bird, Isaiah and Kareem! All of them would certainly stand out in today's game.

1st team all nba > 1st team all defense.
Is this really that hard to understand?

We will likely never see another first teamer from the BSC again. Never again.
Hell I would be shocked if we got a 2nd or 3rd teamer (awards Dame previously received).

Like the contemporaries of Sugar you named, Dame actually made the list with the best, and did not just “play in the same era.”
You old dudes are arguing nostalgia and your dislike for the modern game, not really the merits. If you put your bias aside, you might realize not only that Dame is the best nba player from, but also the best ambassador of, the BSC. He speaks very highly of Weber and the BSC, unlike MRR’s 30-for-30 story. I don’t get it

Exactly. I am a Griz fan and an "old dude" and we all have to admit that they game has evolved. You might not like how it evolved but the players are no doubt more skilled and way more athletic than they were in the 70s and 80s. It really isn't even debatable.

 

[sacstateman]

From MRR's wiki:

4× NBA All-Star (1980–1982, 1985)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1980, 1981)
3× NBA steals leader (1980, 1983, 1985)
NBA assists leader (1980)


MRR was the 4th pick in the draft, 2 slots ahead of Larry Bird. Think Bird was rookie of the year.

Bird didn't sign until after the next college season because he was eligible for the draft but still had college eligibility too....something to do with his going to Indiana but never playing there....in fact, he didn't even finish a semester at IU.....he ended up being the rookie of the year for the '79 - '80 season....Oh, and BTW, Lillard was drafted 6th in '12 and was named ROY unanimously....I am older than MRR also....saw him in the NBA many times.....Dame is the best BSC to ever play in the NBA....MRR edges Dame in assist/gm by .7 (a virtual tie)....MRR edges Dame in reb/gm by 1.2 (not much difference but it is more).....MRR edges Dame in steal/gm by 1.6 (a clear win for MRR)....Dame crushes MRR in pt/gm by 9.7 (clear win for Dame)....These stats are for an almost identical number of games in the NBA and Dame is at his peak right now....The difference will only get more obvious as the years pile up.....Another thing is that MRR was reinstated to the NBA but never even tried to play in the league again...not something that looks very good either....

Not sure what you are trying to say, but Bird was picked 6th in year when MRR was picked 4th, and Bird was Rookie of the Year.

OK, I will spell it out for you....MRR was a rookie in '78-'79....Bird was rookie of the year in '79-'80....although they were both drafted in the '78 draft, Bird still had college eligibility and he went back to ISU and played his senior season in '78-'79, then signed with the Celtics just before the '79-'80 draft....Do you know what I'm saying now ? Even though they both were drafted in the same draft, they had different rookie seasons....

 

[garizzalies]

MRR was selected first team all defense at least once and possibly twice! You can argue you want about how much better athletically the league is today as compared to yesteryear, but let's not forget that Sugar played in the same era as Magic, Bird, Isaiah and Kareem! All of them would certainly stand out in today's game.

1st team all nba > 1st team all defense.
Is this really that hard to understand?

We will likely never see another first teamer from the BSC again. Never again.
Hell I would be shocked if we got a 2nd or 3rd teamer (awards Dame previously received).

Like the contemporaries of Sugar you named, Dame actually made the list with the best, and did not just “play in the same era.”
You old dudes are arguing nostalgia and your dislike for the modern game, not really the merits. If you put your bias aside, you might realize not only that Dame is the best nba player from, but also the best ambassador of, the BSC. He speaks very highly of Weber and the BSC, unlike MRR’s 30-for-30 story. I don’t get it

Exactly. I am a Griz fan and an "old dude" and we all have to admit that they game has evolved. You might not like how it evolved but the players are no doubt more skilled and way more athletic than they were in the 70s and 80s. It really isn't even debatable.

Yep, you’re one of the few old boys who gets it.
To drive this point home, I would argue the two guards DL beat out for his 1st team all nba spot—Curry and Westbrook—are even better than MRR. To me, they are both light years better. I guess that’s why I’m so hung up on this. It should be no contest

 

[sacstateman]

From MRR's wiki:

4× NBA All-Star (1980–1982, 1985)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1980, 1981)
3× NBA steals leader (1980, 1983, 1985)
NBA assists leader (1980)


MRR was the 4th pick in the draft, 2 slots ahead of Larry Bird. Think Bird was rookie of the year.

Bird didn't sign until after the next college season because he was eligible for the draft but still had college eligibility too....something to do with his going to Indiana but never playing there....in fact, he didn't even finish a semester at IU.....he ended up being the rookie of the year for the '79 - '80 season....Oh, and BTW, Lillard was drafted 6th in '12 and was named ROY unanimously....I am older than MRR also....saw him in the NBA many times.....Dame is the best BSC to ever play in the NBA....MRR edges Dame in assist/gm by .7 (a virtual tie)....MRR edges Dame in reb/gm by 1.2 (not much difference but it is more).....MRR edges Dame in steal/gm by 1.6 (a clear win for MRR)....Dame crushes MRR in pt/gm by 9.7 (clear win for Dame)....These stats are for an almost identical number of games in the NBA and Dame is at his peak right now....The difference will only get more obvious as the years pile up.....Another thing is that MRR was reinstated to the NBA but never even tried to play in the league again...not something that looks very good either....

Not sure what you are trying to say, but Bird was picked 6th in year when MRR was picked 4th, and Bird was Rookie of the Year.

OK, I will spell it out for you....MRR was a rookie in '78-'79....Bird was rookie of the year in '79-'80....although they were both drafted in the '78 draft, Bird still had college eligibility and he went back to ISU and played his senior season in '78-'79, then signed with the Celtics just before the '79-'80 draft....Do you know what I'm saying now ? Even though they both were drafted in the same draft, they had different rookie seasons....

Here is some more info on why Bird was able to be drafted in '78.....

Before the draft, Larry Bird had just finished his junior year at Indiana State. However, he was eligible to be drafted without applying for "hardship" because his original college class at Indiana University had graduated.[9][14] He initially enrolled at Indiana University in 1974 but dropped out before the season began. After sitting out a year, he enrolled at Indiana State.[15] Despite being eligible for the draft, he stated that he would return to college for his senior season. His hometown team, the Indiana Pacers, initially held the first overall pick. However, when they failed to persuade him to leave college early, they traded the first pick to the Blazers, who also failed to convince him into signing.[16][17] Five teams, including the Pacers who held the third pick, passed on Bird until the Celtics used the sixth pick to draft him. They drafted him even though they knew that they might lose the exclusive rights to him if he didn't sign before the next draft. He could reenter the draft in 1979 and sign with the other team that drafted him, and in negotiations with Red Auerbach Bird's agent Bob Woolf bluntly dismissed Red's lowball salary offers (he said that he would not offer Bird a contract that paid him more than the $400,000 annual salary of the team's highest-paid player at the time, Dave Cowens) and made it clear that Bird would enter the 1979 Draft without any regrets if Boston didn't change its plans. Nevertheless, on April 1979, he signed a five-year, US$3.25-million contract with the Celtics, which made him the highest-paid rookie in the history of team sport at that time.[18]

 

[sacstateman]

If you took a nationwide poll, 99% would take Dame over MRR....in a Montana poll, Dame would probably still win 75%....I'm 68 years old and there is not a doubt....If anyone was choosing a team right now and Dame and MRR were available, just how many would take MRR? Not many is my guess...

 

[bhumble]

MRR was selected first team all defense at least once and possibly twice! You can argue you want about how much better athletically the league is today as compared to yesteryear, but let's not forget that Sugar played in the same era as Magic, Bird, Isaiah and Kareem! All of them would certainly stand out in today's game.

1st team all nba > 1st team all defense.
Is this really that hard to understand?

We will likely never see another first teamer from the BSC again. Never again.
Hell I would be shocked if we got a 2nd or 3rd teamer (awards Dame previously received).

Like the contemporaries of Sugar you named, Dame actually made the list with the best, and did not just “play in the same era.”
You old dudes are arguing nostalgia and your dislike for the modern game, not really the merits. If you put your bias aside, you might realize not only that Dame is the best nba player from, but also the best ambassador of, the BSC. He speaks very highly of Weber and the BSC, unlike MRR’s 30-for-30 story. I don’t get it

Exactly. I am a Griz fan and an "old dude" and we all have to admit that they game has evolved. You might not like how it evolved but the players are no doubt more skilled and way more athletic than they were in the 70s and 80s. It really isn't even debatable.

Yep, you’re one of the few old boys who gets it.
To drive this point home, I would argue the two guards DL beat out for his 1st team all nba spot—Curry and Westbrook—are even better than MRR. To me, they are both light years better. I guess that’s why I’m so hung up on this. It should be no contest

I hear you.