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MBBALL Championship game vs the kitties

Watched most of the game last night until the writing was on the wall (was the first game I've watched all year, in all honesty), and the loss reminded me a bit of the comeback the Griz had against Weber State back in 2010 - a sizeable lead with a more than improbable collapse. Was hard to watch, but kudos to MSU for what they accomplished.
 
Loss still really stings, just gutted for this great group of seniors. Cats came in with fire that we matched for a while, but then just seemed to hit a wall - and they ran right through it. Credit them for a hell of a job.

Griz bench depth challenges showed bigtime last night. We're super young and inexperienced there and it showed. Zero bench points and really no meaningful contributions from any bench player at all. It's easy to second guess after the game but it really seems like leaning more on the bench to ensure our starting 5 don't totally run out gas would've been more ideal. Meanwhile the Cats got 18 points off their bench if I remember correctly.

Unfortunately the showing in this tournament encapsulated what we can tend to see in a frustrating loss under TDC. Thanks to ISU and Sac the Griz *should have* won the tourney as the highest remaining seed and with a combined 12-2 regular season record against the remaining field. They were the favorites, and they knew it. They got through their first two games doing what they do and holding good/manageable leads, they then built up a workable lead in the 3rd and then melted away and lost... in this case badly. In some of the Grizzlies conference losses they'd see a lead disappear late that turned into a loss, this tournament showing kind of reflected that.

I don't really think this is an indictment on Travis, he's been saying it this whole season - he's had to rebuild this team's culture and covid really wrecked that. This team was top-heavy in a way we've not seen in a long time and just didn't have that next level of depth that could come off the bench in this moment and help out in meaningful ways. The graduation of this group is the sunsetting of those who worked to rebuild the team culture and they should grow from this moving forward, at least that's my hope!
I saw a stat where leading into this game, the griz had a really surprisingly low amount of bench minutes in the tourney, say 40?, while the Cats had way more. 110? At some point that has to come into play with getting tired.
 
Pretty simple explanation for what happened tonight. City has brought this up long ago, as I have also. The offense that DeCuire uses is beyond pathetic. Just watch the Cats offense compared to ours. The Cats players move without the ball, they screen. They use the pick-and roll (three lob dunks in the 1st half for a walk-on player). Montana's offense has no purpose. It consists of dribbling around the perimeter after a hand-off at the top of the key by one of our bigs. There is little movement by players without the ball.... way too much iso, which results in poor shots and hurried desperation shot-clock attempts.

MSU also out-hustled us tonight. And DeCuire was out-coached tonight. A total butt kicking and an embarrassment on national TV.

As a Cat fan I never expected this tonight. I think my fellow Cat fans felt the same way. The Griz had a solid, senior team this year and after the way they handled the Cats during the season, I didn't think we would win this one. I think you hit it on the head with your post. Logie has done an amazing job this season having to build an entirely new team. This guy can coach. It was like what happened to the Cats this year in football happened to the Griz in basketball in this game. I guess it brings up the saying " that's why they play the game".

Having both Montana teams in the final was pretty special and no matter what someone was going to go home disappointed. On to next season!
 
Loss still really stings, just gutted for this great group of seniors. Cats came in with fire that we matched for a while, but then just seemed to hit a wall - and they ran right through it. Credit them for a hell of a job.

Griz bench depth challenges showed bigtime last night. We're super young and inexperienced there and it showed. Zero bench points and really no meaningful contributions from any bench player at all. It's easy to second guess after the game but it really seems like leaning more on the bench to ensure our starting 5 don't totally run out gas would've been more ideal. Meanwhile the Cats got 18 points off their bench if I remember correctly.

Unfortunately the showing in this tournament encapsulated what we can tend to see in a frustrating loss under TDC. Thanks to ISU and Sac the Griz *should have* won the tourney as the highest remaining seed and with a combined 12-2 regular season record against the remaining field. They were the favorites, and they knew it. They got through their first two games doing what they do and holding good/manageable leads, they then built up a workable lead in the 3rd and then melted away and lost... in this case badly. In some of the Grizzlies conference losses they'd see a lead disappear late that turned into a loss, this tournament showing kind of reflected that.

I don't really think this is an indictment on Travis, he's been saying it this whole season - he's had to rebuild this team's culture and covid really wrecked that. This team was top-heavy in a way we've not seen in a long time and just didn't have that next level of depth that could come off the bench in this moment and help out in meaningful ways. The graduation of this group is the sunsetting of those who worked to rebuild the team culture and they should grow from this moving forward, at least that's my hope!
The bench with Jones, GW and Henderson in widened the lead against ISU in the semis and were very effective. You can't develop depth and experience w/o playing time and the bench gets very little over the course of the year. It's a vicious circle and not a new factor. The Cats to their credit got every loose ball and contested rebound and the frontcourt save LO (love that guy) didn't show up and the Griz had no answer. A short bench is deadly in that situation and that hasn't changed. It is what it is for better or worse.
 
I saw a stat where leading into this game, the griz had a really surprisingly low amount of bench minutes in the tourney, say 40?, while the Cats had way more. 110? At some point that has to come into play with getting tired.

Yeah - we had to use the bench a lot against PSU bc of foul trouble, ISU when we worked to sub the bench in they cut our lead in half and so we plugged starters back in for the end stretch.

We've used Sawyer a lot to sub in for Oke and Thomas.

Obviously if Money Williams was healthy we'd have a ton of bench time.

Nap... rough night last night

GWilliams / Henderson played sparingly last night but played more in prior games.
 
I would say TDC got out coached last night. Logie has proved to be one heck of a coach with what he did this year.
Travis definitely was out coached last night. It is simply amazing to me that DeCuire can not figure out how to create an offensive set to free-up Moody for threes. That kid will hit 45% from three if he gets even a slight opening to shoot. It can be accomplished employing a double screen. Many college teams, and all NBA teams utilize the double screen to free-up their great 3-point shooters. It is a fundamental textbook set, found in any basketball coaching publication on offense. But we never use it.

The Cats did an incredible job of taking Moody's 3-point shot out of the game. Once again, as City has stated, I don't even know what to call the office that we run.
 
Where were the double screens by the big guys to free up those beautiful 3 point shooters on the team? Instead they kept adering to the decades long since krysko pattern of throwing it inside Where dischon missed how many bunnies?
 
Yeah - we had to use the bench a lot against PSU bc of foul trouble, ISU when we worked to sub the bench in they cut our lead in half and so we plugged starters back in for the end stretch.

We've used Sawyer a lot to sub in for Oke and Thomas.

Obviously if Money Williams was healthy we'd have a ton of bench time.

Nap... rough night last night

GWilliams / Henderson played sparingly last night but played more in prior games.
Maybe I read it wrong. Honestly whoever wrote it wrote it in a confusing way. And I had to read it twice to understand it. Or thought I understood it. Lol
 
Montana's offense suffered in part a similar problem but for the exact opposite reasons than what we saw with Josh Bannan over the prior three years. Last three years we saw Bannan touch the ball on every possession. It was slow and plodding and every one was sort of captive to what Josh decided to do with the basketball. Wednesday's game was the inverse of that, but same problem, because we couldn't get Moody the ball it was filtered through guys (Oke) that bogged down the offense. Kudo's to Patterson as Moody's defensive shadow on Wednesday as he owned his assignment.

I almost willing to bet the message to him was, we don't care if you foul out, but you are not allowed to give Moody space. They ran Patterson over screens, doubles and triples, and he badgered Moody. Very much reminded me of the Warhank defense by MSU in the late 90's. Got away of ton off ball contact, grabbing some jersey here and there, but the result was Moody having his worst game in a month. To that end, I don't know what you do. They ran iso sets, changed positional rotations, had Moody facilitate the offense, and they couldn't get him in a groove. Rewatch the game. Moody was running Patterson ragged to get free. He wasn't sitting on a spot just letting Patterson be all over him like flies on poop.

Montana isn't going to win games when Thomas and Moody both are MIA on offense. Pure and simple. Part of that is a product of MSU's philosophy but someone else had to step up in the second half and didn't. Put the ball in Whitney's hands too much trying to create and it put them into the same problems (albeit for different reasons) we've seen all too commonly over the past three years. No one moves, waiting for him to facilitate or shoot. Aggravating yes. They lost their equilibrium on offense, lost their patience, and became a team of spectators while 1 player went one on one. A good example of that was the first 18 minutes of the SDSU-UNLV game last night.

Montana's success offensively all conference season was in part because you couldn't focus on just one guy and depended highly on the distribution scoring of the basketball among 3 or 4 guys night to night. Frees every one up. Montana State did an effective job, moreso than anyone this year by product of their defensive scheme in eliminating the one function that made the offense so efficient.

TDC didn't have an answer, Nap was his answer in game 1 against the Cats in a similar scenario. Sawyer was essentially brought in for this particular situation and he was a no-show on Wednesday. His game is being a fluid 12-15 foot guy and punishing teams for sagging off. Both Thomas and Sawyer were awful defensively, that it necessitated keeping Oke on the floor.

So yes, TDC got out coached because his choices to get Moody free and unlatch the offense in that 10 minute stretch. Would have I gone to the bench for Jones? Maybe. Would have I looked for someone that was going to give me defensive effort? Maybe. Again I'll point this out, his largely senior group had answers when pushed to the brink like that. I just don't know you go away from those guys in that moment. He trusted his seniors and they weren't good in those ten minutes. Whitney, Moody, Thomas...all not good on both ends of the floor. There isn't a magic set or play that can fix that.

Were Whitney and Vasquez fatigued late in the game? Absolutely. We act as if the four minutes less Ford or Turner played in games 1 and 2 of the tournament was like having a vacation on the French Riveria. MSU got better play out their two primary subs (Lecholat and Olmstead) than Montana go out their primaries (WIlliams and Sawyer). I thought Montana had a clear advantage on the bench based upon what I saw out the first two games they played against each other and what I saw in two prior games of the tournament. Travis could have played Henderson, but I understand the reticence considering just how off kilter Whitney was against Turner/Ford III.

Travis wasn't wrong when he said this game would be defined by defensive effort, and MSU brought it more when they needed it. For me when you get no shows defensively from your two post flex defenders, you are gonig to get beat up. In the first half it was on the pick and roll, and in the second it was because Montana had to play those guards heads up and with out the type of help side defense that had made Ford III, Turner and Goracke volume shooters in game three.

Mind you, that MSU didn't make more threes in game 3 against UM than in any of the prior games. MSU was 6-23 from 3. That was 9 less threes than MSU averaged in its prior two games in the tournament and in line with the first two meetings. The difference was the performance in the paint, not only by Olmstead but by Walker and how easy Ford III/Turner got clean looks late around the cup. The Griz just didn't get the best defensive efforts out their flex 4's (Thomas/Sawyer/Nap on occasion) and if there was a position where Whitney's and Vasquez fatigue played a part was they were a half a step slow defending Turner/Ford III late.

We can scream at each other all we want. I just don't think it is easy to distill that ten minute stretch down to one thing. Multiple things conspired to create that shit show. Logie did his part, his players executed. Travis made some adjustments and the players didn't execute. So yes Travis didn't push the right buttons on both ends of the floor but it just isn't as simple as that.

Congrats to MSU. I am still sick about it, but this happens in sport. I like Logie, I like how MSU plays.
 
A friend (former student), who is a UM grad & a Griz fan... now a hoops ref in another state, called post-game and we discussed it. He said the pressure on a ref to call a "fair" game in post-season is sometimes almost unbearable. By the end of the season they know the coaches and their tactics, they know the players, especially their idiosyncrasies (who travels, who flops, who whines, who talks excessive trash, who's a bit dirty etc.).
In the post-season, he said, most refs try to focus on allowing game flow, avoiding all but the most obvious infractions... allowing a more physical game. "We get graded, you know," he said. The post-halftime ramp up of Cat D pressure on Whitney and Moody was sudden and very physical and, he thinks, possibly also caught the refs off-guard. He thinks the refs made the right call (upon review) of the contact between Oke and Olmstead that hurt the Bobcat. But, he felt officials could have made a different call (after review) when it was obvious Moody was being clearly physically restrained before he got his intentional foul. None of that would have mattered, he said... saying he's called "dozens" of games where momentum suddenly shifts and the game ends in a "totally unexpected, sometimes sudden, shock."

Which then reminded me of Montana's classic, "shocking" 2010 Big Sky Championship win over Weber State (in Ogden)... down 20 at halftime before Anthony Johnson got hot... when with seconds remaining, AJ and Will Cherry trapped Damian Lillard at half court, Will stole the ball & the Griz won by a single point.
 
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A friend (former student), who is a UM grad & a Griz fan... now a hoops ref in another state, called post-game and we discussed it. He said the pressure on a ref to call a "fair" game in post-season is sometimes almost unbearable. By the end of the season they know the coaches and their tactics, they know the players, especially their idiosyncrasies (who travels, who flops, who whines, who talks excessive trash, who's a bit dirty etc.).
In the post-season, he said, most refs try to focus on allowing game flow, avoiding all but the most obvious infractions... allowing a more physical game. "We get graded, you know," he said. The post-halftime ramp up of Cat D pressure on Whitney and Moody was sudden and very physical and, he thinks, possibly also caught the refs off-guard. He thinks the refs made the right call (upon review) of the contact between Oke and Olmstead that hurt the Bobcat. But, he felt officials could have made a different call (after review) when it was obvious Moody was being clearly physically restrained before he got his intentional foul. None of that would have mattered, he said... saying he's called "dozens" of games where momentum suddenly shifts and the game ends in a "totally unexpected, sometimes sudden, shock."

Which then reminded me of Montana's classic, "shocking" 2010 Big Sky Championship win over Weber State (in Ogden)... down 20 at halftime before Anthony Johnson got hot... when with seconds remaining, AJ and Will Cherry trapped Damian Lillard at half court, Will stole the ball & the Griz won by a single point.
They did not handle the pressure well. Couple reasons from watching the guards the last few years. The front court checked out early on both ends so they had to work harder both ways and creating their own shot is not a collective strength with the group making an offense that stood around and was very careless with the ball even worse. Going to miss Oke and his motor that doesn't ever idle. One guy that plays hard whether he gets his looks or not. Too bad he lacked the skills on offense to be a factor and too bad Jones didn't get some PT after his energetic play the prior contest. tough to win going 3 or 4 on 5 a lot of the game.
 
A friend (former student), who is a UM grad & a Griz fan... now a hoops ref in another state, called post-game and we discussed it. He said the pressure on a ref to call a "fair" game in post-season is sometimes almost unbearable. By the end of the season they know the coaches and their tactics, they know the players, especially their idiosyncrasies (who travels, who flops, who whines, who talks excessive trash, who's a bit dirty etc.).
In the post-season, he said, most refs try to focus on allowing game flow, avoiding all but the most obvious infractions... allowing a more physical game. "We get graded, you know," he said. The post-halftime ramp up of Cat D pressure on Whitney and Moody was sudden and very physical and, he thinks, possibly also caught the refs off-guard. He thinks the refs made the right call (upon review) of the contact between Oke and Olmstead that hurt the Bobcat. But, he felt officials could have made a different call (after review) when it was obvious Moody was being clearly physically restrained before he got his intentional foul. None of that would have mattered, he said... saying he's called "dozens" of games where momentum suddenly shifts and the game ends in a "totally unexpected, sometimes sudden, shock."

Which then reminded me of Montana's classic, "shocking" 2010 Big Sky Championship win over Weber State (in Ogden)... down 20 at halftime before Anthony Johnson got hot... when with seconds remaining, AJ and Will Cherry trapped Damian Lillard at half court, Will stole the ball & the Griz won by a single point.
Just my observation, game has changed over the course of years, lots more physical w/o fouls. See bigs w/ball in the paint, hip checking bouncing defenders off balance, to get the shot. That's not finesse. A lot more arms, grabbing pushing, tie ups not clean, its a power over, grab whatever. Traveling...lots of that, "NBA Step"...BS!
 
...the disappointment is real...
...thanks griz..coaches..fans...
...once a griz always a griz...

...:cool:...
 
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