Bison - loaded again

[MTGRZ]

I’ll just say this. Liberal arts degrees are next to worthless in today’s society. Unless you have money from mommy and daddy, it simply makes next to zero sense, financially speaking, to get a degree in communications, journalism etc versus going into a high demand field like nursing, pharmacy and engineering.

My two cents. If UM offered degrees in fields that matter, it would have a booming enrollment because the campus is georgeous and the community of Missoula, combined with geographic area, is great.

I speak from experience. I have all sorts of in-laws who live in North Dakota, and they're all very financially successful, and they'd probably all agree with your thesis. And they're all full of shit, just like you are. If the only purpose for colleges and universities in this country is vocational and technical training, then corporations need to start paying a much bigger percentage of the freight.

Another equally (if not more) legitimate purpose for colleges and universities is teaching people how to be critical thinkers. Teaching people how to think for themselves, and not just follow the path laid down by somebody's grandfather. Teaching people how to spell "gorgeous."

Did Steve Jobs need to graduate from some f***[*] engineering program to be successful? Of course not. How many thousands of examples do you need? How many brilliant (and financially successful) attorneys, teachers, designers, authors, business owners or diplomats graduated from liberal arts colleges and universities? You think they all needed their "mommies and daddies" to fund their college coursework or tell them what their college majors needed to be?

I know engineers who hate their jobs, and I know engineers who love their jobs. And I know people who graduated from NDSU or MSU who have the intelligence and/or emotional quotient of a potato. Let's not generalize or stereotype, bub. That's what complete dumbasses do.

I cannot like this enough. Although I graduated with a BS and a MS, a liberal arts college degree is, in a way, more usable in today's workforce. Like you mentioned, universities should be teaching people to be critical thinkers; employers will be looking for graduates with the ability to take in information/data, interpret the info/data, and then use it in some way that is beneficial to whatever their job may be. Liberal arts degrees are a great degree to have when you are asked to bring something new to the table, in a variety of industries.

Look at med school applicants. For a long time students were taking fairly straight and narrow undergrad tracks to get into medical schools. Then the med schools discovered that just because students have all the grades and standardized tests scores with a traditional pre-med degree, they aren't necessarily the best med school students/doctors. Students with liberal arts degrees standout from the med school applicant pool (granted they have good grades/test scores, and pre-requisite courses) of generic pre-med, biology, and bio-chem degrees.

Critical, and creative thinking are what separate good applicants from not as good applicants. Liberal arts degrees do a fine job preparing students for meaningful careers. The problem at UM is much deeper than, "oh they only offer liberal arts degrees, and nobody can get a job with a liberal arts degree." That is an easy (and incorrect) answer to a complicated issue. Most of the people I have spoken to who believe if UM offered more STEM programs to raise enrollment have degrees and jobs in a STEM field. I challenge them to think outside of their "comfort zone" and look at the world through a broader lens. Like they say, "there's more than one way to skin a cat."

Eh...I can not seem to recall anyone in particular who majored in pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing etc and lack in critical thinking skills.

On the other hand I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school. These are the people I have paused and asked myself what the f*** they were thinking.

I never said UM is a bad school....but it is undeniable that liberal arts education is a dying breed in this country. Perhaps it is a shame, but with education as expensive as it is today, it should certainly cause one to look at where they are going to school and if their degree will pay off.

If you read my response again you will see that I never said pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing, etc. lack critical thinking skills.

I feel your argument is based on your apparent view that universities are designed to get you a job, and that a degree is only valuable if that job is a high paying job. There are many others with a different view. A view that sees universities as a place to discover truths about the world, and about oneself. A place to learn how to learn, and how to synthesize information in a meaningful way. While these are things that can be accomplished in STEM programs, they can also be learned in liberal arts programs.

A university with a variety of degrees options has the potential to grow in ways that a STEM driven schools don't. Look at MSU-do you think their recent increase in students is only in STEM fields? No. Their business school, education, and native american studies programs have all grown too. While I believe UM should push their STEM fields more, I also believe a liberal arts degree still carries value in todays world.

You said, "I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school." I know many people who have liberal arts degrees and have great careers in a field of their choice....so anecdotal references are meaningless in this conversation. Unless....UM liberal arts degrees are more marketable than other schools, and we just happen to know people from different universities. I doubt this is the case, but I guess it could be true.

A world full of STEM majors would be an awfully boring place. Fortunately the world is a diverse place full of people with a wide variety of interests and talents. And while the current economic "situation" in the USA is immediately financially rewarding STEM degrees; liberal arts degrees benefit the workforce too, and will continue to be useful degrees for students looking for something outside of STEM.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I’ll just say this. Liberal arts degrees are next to worthless in today’s society. Unless you have money from mommy and daddy, it simply makes next to zero sense, financially speaking, to get a degree in communications, journalism etc versus going into a high demand field like nursing, pharmacy and engineering.

My two cents. If UM offered degrees in fields that matter, it would have a booming enrollment because the campus is georgeous and the community of Missoula, combined with geographic area, is great.

I speak from experience. I have all sorts of in-laws who live in North Dakota, and they're all very financially successful, and they'd probably all agree with your thesis. And they're all full of shit, just like you are. If the only purpose for colleges and universities in this country is vocational and technical training, then corporations need to start paying a much bigger percentage of the freight.

Another equally (if not more) legitimate purpose for colleges and universities is teaching people how to be critical thinkers. Teaching people how to think for themselves, and not just follow the path laid down by somebody's grandfather. Teaching people how to spell "gorgeous."

Did Steve Jobs need to graduate from some fucking engineering program to be successful? Of course not. How many thousands of examples do you need? How many brilliant (and financially successful) attorneys, teachers, designers, authors, business owners or diplomats graduated from liberal arts colleges and universities? You think they all needed their "mommies and daddies" to fund their college coursework or tell them what their college majors needed to be?

I know engineers who hate their jobs, and I know engineers who love their jobs. And I know people who graduated from NDSU or MSU who have the intelligence and/or emotional quotient of a potato. Let's not generalize or stereotype, bub. That's what complete dumbasses do.

I'm sorry, but that is fucking phenomenal. :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[AZGrizFan]

I speak from experience. I have all sorts of in-laws who live in North Dakota, and they're all very financially successful, and they'd probably all agree with your thesis. And they're all full of shit, just like you are. If the only purpose for colleges and universities in this country is vocational and technical training, then corporations need to start paying a much bigger percentage of the freight.

Another equally (if not more) legitimate purpose for colleges and universities is teaching people how to be critical thinkers. Teaching people how to think for themselves, and not just follow the path laid down by somebody's grandfather. Teaching people how to spell "gorgeous."

Did Steve Jobs need to graduate from some f***[*] engineering program to be successful? Of course not. How many thousands of examples do you need? How many brilliant (and financially successful) attorneys, teachers, designers, authors, business owners or diplomats graduated from liberal arts colleges and universities? You think they all needed their "mommies and daddies" to fund their college coursework or tell them what their college majors needed to be?

I know engineers who hate their jobs, and I know engineers who love their jobs. And I know people who graduated from NDSU or MSU who have the intelligence and/or emotional quotient of a potato. Let's not generalize or stereotype, bub. That's what complete dumbasses do.

I cannot like this enough. Although I graduated with a BS and a MS, a liberal arts college degree is, in a way, more usable in today's workforce. Like you mentioned, universities should be teaching people to be critical thinkers; employers will be looking for graduates with the ability to take in information/data, interpret the info/data, and then use it in some way that is beneficial to whatever their job may be. Liberal arts degrees are a great degree to have when you are asked to bring something new to the table, in a variety of industries.

Look at med school applicants. For a long time students were taking fairly straight and narrow undergrad tracks to get into medical schools. Then the med schools discovered that just because students have all the grades and standardized tests scores with a traditional pre-med degree, they aren't necessarily the best med school students/doctors. Students with liberal arts degrees standout from the med school applicant pool (granted they have good grades/test scores, and pre-requisite courses) of generic pre-med, biology, and bio-chem degrees.

Critical, and creative thinking are what separate good applicants from not as good applicants. Liberal arts degrees do a fine job preparing students for meaningful careers. The problem at UM is much deeper than, "oh they only offer liberal arts degrees, and nobody can get a job with a liberal arts degree." That is an easy (and incorrect) answer to a complicated issue. Most of the people I have spoken to who believe if UM offered more STEM programs to raise enrollment have degrees and jobs in a STEM field. I challenge them to think outside of their "comfort zone" and look at the world through a broader lens. Like they say, "there's more than one way to skin a cat."

Eh...I can not seem to recall anyone in particular who majored in pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing etc and lack in critical thinking skills.

On the other hand I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school. These are the people I have paused and asked myself what the f*** they were thinking.

I never said UM is a bad school....but it is undeniable that liberal arts education is a dying breed in this country. Perhaps it is a shame, but with education as expensive as it is today, it should certainly cause one to look at where they are going to school and if their degree will pay off.

If you read my response again you will see that I never said pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing, etc. lack critical thinking skills.

I feel your argument is based on your apparent view that universities are designed to get you a job, and that a degree is only valuable if that job is a high paying job. There are many others with a different view. A view that sees universities as a place to discover truths about the world, and about oneself. A place to learn how to learn, and how to synthesize information in a meaningful way. While these are things that can be accomplished in STEM programs, they can also be learned in liberal arts programs.

A university with a variety of degrees options has the potential to grow in ways that a STEM driven schools don't. Look at MSU-do you think their recent increase in students is only in STEM fields? No. Their business school, education, and native american studies programs have all grown too. While I believe UM should push their STEM fields more, I also believe a liberal arts degree still carries value in todays world.

You said, "I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school." I know many people who have liberal arts degrees and have great careers in a field of their choice....so anecdotal references are meaningless in this conversation. Unless....UM liberal arts degrees are more marketable than other schools, and we just happen to know people from different universities. I doubt this is the case, but I guess it could be true.

A world full of STEM majors would be an awfully boring place. Fortunately the world is a diverse place full of people with a wide variety of interests and talents. And while the current economic "situation" in the USA is immediately financially rewarding STEM degrees; liberal arts degrees benefit the workforce too, and will continue to be useful degrees for students looking for something outside of STEM.

The reality of it is (as an employer who hires 150-200 people a year), unless that degree is from an Ivy League school, Duke, Stanford or MIT it really doesn't matter WHERE its from or what your field of study was. It's about proving you have the wherewithal and stick-to-it-iveness to finish something you started. And I'm living proof of that. My undergraduate degree is in Computer Science....yet I've never used it. Spent 11 years as a Naval Officer and now I'm the Chief Financial Officer of a $10 billion credit union. I don't have an accounting or finance degree...I'm not a CPA (but I have three that work for me). I have never, not once, in 35 years as an adult, used my undergraduate degree in the workplace (other than the demonstrated ability to be a critical thinker).

But I have somehow managed to do alright.

 

[Silenoz]

You're not wrong....but you're not right.

Ha well done! That liberal arts education shows well!

Isn’t anything against UM. Georgeous campus. Great college town.....but if I’m paying for my own education, I’m going to look into a field where my education pays off immediately. I know UM has a good B school and strong science programs but outside of that, what is the allure academically? Journalism and communication? Save your money...

Wait, that's why our enrollment tanked? Shit, someone finally cracked the code in 2018. Someone get Bodnar on the line!

Well certainly the distinction of being “Rape U” didn’t help.

I'd agree, but Penn State's rapid turnaround and Trump's "grab them by the p---y" both tell me that nothing matters. Just results. Or the hope for results.

 

[4theluvofgriz]

Ha well done! That liberal arts education shows well!

Isn’t anything against UM. Georgeous campus. Great college town.....but if I’m paying for my own education, I’m going to look into a field where my education pays off immediately. I know UM has a good B school and strong science programs but outside of that, what is the allure academically? Journalism and communication? Save your money...

Wait, that's why our enrollment tanked? Shit, someone finally cracked the code in 2018. Someone get Bodnar on the line!

Well certainly the distinction of being “Rape U” didn’t help.

I'd agree, but Penn State's rapid turnaround and Trump's "grab them by the p---y" both tell me that nothing matters. Just results. Or the hope for results.

Agreed..... just like the need to Hazmat the Oval Office after Slick Willy left......

 

[Mousegriz]

I cannot like this enough. Although I graduated with a BS and a MS, a liberal arts college degree is, in a way, more usable in today's workforce. Like you mentioned, universities should be teaching people to be critical thinkers; employers will be looking for graduates with the ability to take in information/data, interpret the info/data, and then use it in some way that is beneficial to whatever their job may be. Liberal arts degrees are a great degree to have when you are asked to bring something new to the table, in a variety of industries.

Look at med school applicants. For a long time students were taking fairly straight and narrow undergrad tracks to get into medical schools. Then the med schools discovered that just because students have all the grades and standardized tests scores with a traditional pre-med degree, they aren't necessarily the best med school students/doctors. Students with liberal arts degrees standout from the med school applicant pool (granted they have good grades/test scores, and pre-requisite courses) of generic pre-med, biology, and bio-chem degrees.

Critical, and creative thinking are what separate good applicants from not as good applicants. Liberal arts degrees do a fine job preparing students for meaningful careers. The problem at UM is much deeper than, "oh they only offer liberal arts degrees, and nobody can get a job with a liberal arts degree." That is an easy (and incorrect) answer to a complicated issue. Most of the people I have spoken to who believe if UM offered more STEM programs to raise enrollment have degrees and jobs in a STEM field. I challenge them to think outside of their "comfort zone" and look at the world through a broader lens. Like they say, "there's more than one way to skin a cat."

Eh...I can not seem to recall anyone in particular who majored in pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing etc and lack in critical thinking skills.

On the other hand I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school. These are the people I have paused and asked myself what the f*** they were thinking.

I never said UM is a bad school....but it is undeniable that liberal arts education is a dying breed in this country. Perhaps it is a shame, but with education as expensive as it is today, it should certainly cause one to look at where they are going to school and if their degree will pay off.

If you read my response again you will see that I never said pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing, etc. lack critical thinking skills.

I feel your argument is based on your apparent view that universities are designed to get you a job, and that a degree is only valuable if that job is a high paying job. There are many others with a different view. A view that sees universities as a place to discover truths about the world, and about oneself. A place to learn how to learn, and how to synthesize information in a meaningful way. While these are things that can be accomplished in STEM programs, they can also be learned in liberal arts programs.

A university with a variety of degrees options has the potential to grow in ways that a STEM driven schools don't. Look at MSU-do you think their recent increase in students is only in STEM fields? No. Their business school, education, and native american studies programs have all grown too. While I believe UM should push their STEM fields more, I also believe a liberal arts degree still carries value in todays world.

You said, "I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school." I know many people who have liberal arts degrees and have great careers in a field of their choice....so anecdotal references are meaningless in this conversation. Unless....UM liberal arts degrees are more marketable than other schools, and we just happen to know people from different universities. I doubt this is the case, but I guess it could be true.

A world full of STEM majors would be an awfully boring place. Fortunately the world is a diverse place full of people with a wide variety of interests and talents. And while the current economic "situation" in the USA is immediately financially rewarding STEM degrees; liberal arts degrees benefit the workforce too, and will continue to be useful degrees for students looking for something outside of STEM.

The reality of it is (as an employer who hires 150-200 people a year), unless that degree is from an Ivy League school, Duke, Stanford or MIT it really doesn't matter WHERE its from or what your field of study was. It's about proving you have the wherewithal and stick-to-it-iveness to finish something you started. And I'm living proof of that. My undergraduate degree is in Computer Science....yet I've never used it. Spent 11 years as a Naval Officer and now I'm the Chief Financial Officer of a $10 billion credit union. I don't have an accounting or finance degree...I'm not a CPA (but I have three that work for me). I have never, not once, in 35 years as an adult, used my undergraduate degree in the workplace (other than the demonstrated ability to be a critical thinker).

But I have somehow managed to do alright.

Nice to have that 40%+ profit net profit margin over income tax paying financial institutions isn't it?

 

[AZGrizFan]

Eh...I can not seem to recall anyone in particular who majored in pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing etc and lack in critical thinking skills.

On the other hand I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school. These are the people I have paused and asked myself what the f*** they were thinking.

I never said UM is a bad school....but it is undeniable that liberal arts education is a dying breed in this country. Perhaps it is a shame, but with education as expensive as it is today, it should certainly cause one to look at where they are going to school and if their degree will pay off.

If you read my response again you will see that I never said pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing, etc. lack critical thinking skills.

I feel your argument is based on your apparent view that universities are designed to get you a job, and that a degree is only valuable if that job is a high paying job. There are many others with a different view. A view that sees universities as a place to discover truths about the world, and about oneself. A place to learn how to learn, and how to synthesize information in a meaningful way. While these are things that can be accomplished in STEM programs, they can also be learned in liberal arts programs.

A university with a variety of degrees options has the potential to grow in ways that a STEM driven schools don't. Look at MSU-do you think their recent increase in students is only in STEM fields? No. Their business school, education, and native american studies programs have all grown too. While I believe UM should push their STEM fields more, I also believe a liberal arts degree still carries value in todays world.

You said, "I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school." I know many people who have liberal arts degrees and have great careers in a field of their choice....so anecdotal references are meaningless in this conversation. Unless....UM liberal arts degrees are more marketable than other schools, and we just happen to know people from different universities. I doubt this is the case, but I guess it could be true.

A world full of STEM majors would be an awfully boring place. Fortunately the world is a diverse place full of people with a wide variety of interests and talents. And while the current economic "situation" in the USA is immediately financially rewarding STEM degrees; liberal arts degrees benefit the workforce too, and will continue to be useful degrees for students looking for something outside of STEM.

The reality of it is (as an employer who hires 150-200 people a year), unless that degree is from an Ivy League school, Duke, Stanford or MIT it really doesn't matter WHERE its from or what your field of study was. It's about proving you have the wherewithal and stick-to-it-iveness to finish something you started. And I'm living proof of that. My undergraduate degree is in Computer Science....yet I've never used it. Spent 11 years as a Naval Officer and now I'm the Chief Financial Officer of a $10 billion credit union. I don't have an accounting or finance degree...I'm not a CPA (but I have three that work for me). I have never, not once, in 35 years as an adult, used my undergraduate degree in the workplace (other than the demonstrated ability to be a critical thinker).

But I have somehow managed to do alright.

Nice to have that 40%+ profit net profit margin over income tax paying financial institutions isn't it?

40% is fake news.

 

[Raider]

Eh...I can not seem to recall anyone in particular who majored in pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing etc and lack in critical thinking skills.

On the other hand I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school. These are the people I have paused and asked myself what the f*** they were thinking.

I never said UM is a bad school....but it is undeniable that liberal arts education is a dying breed in this country. Perhaps it is a shame, but with education as expensive as it is today, it should certainly cause one to look at where they are going to school and if their degree will pay off.

If you read my response again you will see that I never said pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing, etc. lack critical thinking skills.

I feel your argument is based on your apparent view that universities are designed to get you a job, and that a degree is only valuable if that job is a high paying job. There are many others with a different view. A view that sees universities as a place to discover truths about the world, and about oneself. A place to learn how to learn, and how to synthesize information in a meaningful way. While these are things that can be accomplished in STEM programs, they can also be learned in liberal arts programs.

A university with a variety of degrees options has the potential to grow in ways that a STEM driven schools don't. Look at MSU-do you think their recent increase in students is only in STEM fields? No. Their business school, education, and native american studies programs have all grown too. While I believe UM should push their STEM fields more, I also believe a liberal arts degree still carries value in todays world.

You said, "I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school." I know many people who have liberal arts degrees and have great careers in a field of their choice....so anecdotal references are meaningless in this conversation. Unless....UM liberal arts degrees are more marketable than other schools, and we just happen to know people from different universities. I doubt this is the case, but I guess it could be true.

A world full of STEM majors would be an awfully boring place. Fortunately the world is a diverse place full of people with a wide variety of interests and talents. And while the current economic "situation" in the USA is immediately financially rewarding STEM degrees; liberal arts degrees benefit the workforce too, and will continue to be useful degrees for students looking for something outside of STEM.

The reality of it is (as an employer who hires 150-200 people a year), unless that degree is from an Ivy League school, Duke, Stanford or MIT it really doesn't matter WHERE its from or what your field of study was. It's about proving you have the wherewithal and stick-to-it-iveness to finish something you started. And I'm living proof of that. My undergraduate degree is in Computer Science....yet I've never used it. Spent 11 years as a Naval Officer and now I'm the Chief Financial Officer of a $10 billion credit union. I don't have an accounting or finance degree...I'm not a CPA (but I have three that work for me). I have never, not once, in 35 years as an adult, used my undergraduate degree in the workplace (other than the demonstrated ability to be a critical thinker).

But I have somehow managed to do alright.

Nice to have that 40%+ profit net profit margin over income tax paying financial institutions isn't it?

+1!!!!!!!!! Ugh!

AZ, we have never met, and I am sure you are an awesome dude, but man you are becoming harder and harder to like in the message board world.

 

[MTGRZ]

I cannot like this enough. Although I graduated with a BS and a MS, a liberal arts college degree is, in a way, more usable in today's workforce. Like you mentioned, universities should be teaching people to be critical thinkers; employers will be looking for graduates with the ability to take in information/data, interpret the info/data, and then use it in some way that is beneficial to whatever their job may be. Liberal arts degrees are a great degree to have when you are asked to bring something new to the table, in a variety of industries.

Look at med school applicants. For a long time students were taking fairly straight and narrow undergrad tracks to get into medical schools. Then the med schools discovered that just because students have all the grades and standardized tests scores with a traditional pre-med degree, they aren't necessarily the best med school students/doctors. Students with liberal arts degrees standout from the med school applicant pool (granted they have good grades/test scores, and pre-requisite courses) of generic pre-med, biology, and bio-chem degrees.

Critical, and creative thinking are what separate good applicants from not as good applicants. Liberal arts degrees do a fine job preparing students for meaningful careers. The problem at UM is much deeper than, "oh they only offer liberal arts degrees, and nobody can get a job with a liberal arts degree." That is an easy (and incorrect) answer to a complicated issue. Most of the people I have spoken to who believe if UM offered more STEM programs to raise enrollment have degrees and jobs in a STEM field. I challenge them to think outside of their "comfort zone" and look at the world through a broader lens. Like they say, "there's more than one way to skin a cat."

Eh...I can not seem to recall anyone in particular who majored in pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing etc and lack in critical thinking skills.

On the other hand I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school. These are the people I have paused and asked myself what the f*** they were thinking.

I never said UM is a bad school....but it is undeniable that liberal arts education is a dying breed in this country. Perhaps it is a shame, but with education as expensive as it is today, it should certainly cause one to look at where they are going to school and if their degree will pay off.

If you read my response again you will see that I never said pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing, etc. lack critical thinking skills.

I feel your argument is based on your apparent view that universities are designed to get you a job, and that a degree is only valuable if that job is a high paying job. There are many others with a different view. A view that sees universities as a place to discover truths about the world, and about oneself. A place to learn how to learn, and how to synthesize information in a meaningful way. While these are things that can be accomplished in STEM programs, they can also be learned in liberal arts programs.

A university with a variety of degrees options has the potential to grow in ways that a STEM driven schools don't. Look at MSU-do you think their recent increase in students is only in STEM fields? No. Their business school, education, and native american studies programs have all grown too. While I believe UM should push their STEM fields more, I also believe a liberal arts degree still carries value in todays world.

You said, "I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school." I know many people who have liberal arts degrees and have great careers in a field of their choice....so anecdotal references are meaningless in this conversation. Unless....UM liberal arts degrees are more marketable than other schools, and we just happen to know people from different universities. I doubt this is the case, but I guess it could be true.

A world full of STEM majors would be an awfully boring place. Fortunately the world is a diverse place full of people with a wide variety of interests and talents. And while the current economic "situation" in the USA is immediately financially rewarding STEM degrees; liberal arts degrees benefit the workforce too, and will continue to be useful degrees for students looking for something outside of STEM.

The reality of it is (as an employer who hires 150-200 people a year), unless that degree is from an Ivy League school, Duke, Stanford or MIT it really doesn't matter WHERE its from or what your field of study was. It's about proving you have the wherewithal and stick-to-it-iveness to finish something you started. And I'm living proof of that. My undergraduate degree is in Computer Science....yet I've never used it. Spent 11 years as a Naval Officer and now I'm the Chief Financial Officer of a $10 billion credit union. I don't have an accounting or finance degree...I'm not a CPA (but I have three that work for me). I have never, not once, in 35 years as an adult, used my undergraduate degree in the workplace (other than the demonstrated ability to be a critical thinker).

But I have somehow managed to do alright.

So you would agree that a liberal arts degree is just fine so long as the applicant has a degree and the other intangibles you are looking for?

That's what I would think, but I'm just making sure I understand your point. I get that some careers require specialized training/education; but to what I think you are saying, a liberal arts degree can be just as useful as a computer science degree as long as the degree holder is a good worker and creative, critical thinker.

BTW, I admire your stick-to-it-iveness.

 

[reinell30]

There are a lot of people with degrees of all levels working in the fast food industry. Not to mention all the other minimum wage jobs they fill. I myself have degree's in different fields and I do not serve in either of them.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Eh...I can not seem to recall anyone in particular who majored in pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing etc and lack in critical thinking skills.

On the other hand I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school. These are the people I have paused and asked myself what the f*** they were thinking.

I never said UM is a bad school....but it is undeniable that liberal arts education is a dying breed in this country. Perhaps it is a shame, but with education as expensive as it is today, it should certainly cause one to look at where they are going to school and if their degree will pay off.

If you read my response again you will see that I never said pharmacy, engineering, architecture, nursing, etc. lack critical thinking skills.

I feel your argument is based on your apparent view that universities are designed to get you a job, and that a degree is only valuable if that job is a high paying job. There are many others with a different view. A view that sees universities as a place to discover truths about the world, and about oneself. A place to learn how to learn, and how to synthesize information in a meaningful way. While these are things that can be accomplished in STEM programs, they can also be learned in liberal arts programs.

A university with a variety of degrees options has the potential to grow in ways that a STEM driven schools don't. Look at MSU-do you think their recent increase in students is only in STEM fields? No. Their business school, education, and native american studies programs have all grown too. While I believe UM should push their STEM fields more, I also believe a liberal arts degree still carries value in todays world.

You said, "I have met many people who majored in communications, journalism, English etc., took out a shit ton of loans, and ultimately were not marketable in today’s economy, resulting in them having a shitty job they could have received straight out of high school." I know many people who have liberal arts degrees and have great careers in a field of their choice....so anecdotal references are meaningless in this conversation. Unless....UM liberal arts degrees are more marketable than other schools, and we just happen to know people from different universities. I doubt this is the case, but I guess it could be true.

A world full of STEM majors would be an awfully boring place. Fortunately the world is a diverse place full of people with a wide variety of interests and talents. And while the current economic "situation" in the USA is immediately financially rewarding STEM degrees; liberal arts degrees benefit the workforce too, and will continue to be useful degrees for students looking for something outside of STEM.

The reality of it is (as an employer who hires 150-200 people a year), unless that degree is from an Ivy League school, Duke, Stanford or MIT it really doesn't matter WHERE its from or what your field of study was. It's about proving you have the wherewithal and stick-to-it-iveness to finish something you started. And I'm living proof of that. My undergraduate degree is in Computer Science....yet I've never used it. Spent 11 years as a Naval Officer and now I'm the Chief Financial Officer of a $10 billion credit union. I don't have an accounting or finance degree...I'm not a CPA (but I have three that work for me). I have never, not once, in 35 years as an adult, used my undergraduate degree in the workplace (other than the demonstrated ability to be a critical thinker).

But I have somehow managed to do alright.

So you would agree that a liberal arts degree is just fine so long as the applicant has a degree and the other intangibles you are looking for?

That's what I would think, but I'm just making sure I understand your point. I get that some careers require specialized training/education; but to what I think you are saying, a liberal arts degree can be just as useful as a computer science degree as long as the degree holder is a good worker and creative, critical thinker.

BTW, I admire your stick-to-it-iveness.

You understand my point perfectly. :thumb:

 

[AZGrizFan]

Nice to have that 40%+ profit net profit margin over income tax paying financial institutions isn't it?

+1!!!!!!!!! Ugh!

AZ, we have never met, and I am sure you are an awesome dude, but man you are becoming harder and harder to like in the message board world.

a) it's nowhere near 40%
b) If you removed all the restrictions and hoops we have to jump through to get new members I'd gladly pay the tax and compete with banks head-on. :thumb: :thumb:
c) edit: and you're 100% correct, I AM an awesome dude...

Just to have access to secondary capital would be (h)uuuuuuge.

You two must be bankers. :lol: :lol:

 

[kemajic]

I always come back to the quotes of wise man Winston Churchill and he has one of relevance to this exchange:

“The first duty of the university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we do not want a world of engineers.”

 

[cclarkblues]

I always come back to the quotes of wise man Winston Churchill and he has one of relevance to this exchange:

“The first duty of the university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we do not want a world of engineers.”

I agree with the sentiment but I would argue that there is a higher percentage of moronic self-absorbed twits than ever before and that too points some blame at the university system.

 

[bgbigdog]

Bankers? I would have sworn Raider was a meteorologist in the real world. Shows you what I know.

Self-absorbed? Most certainly. Moronic? If you insist, But I draw the line @ being called a twit. Bastard.

 

[reinell30]

How many lawyers do we need? How many Engineers do we need? I think what they are offering in Bozeman is far greater than Engineers. They are offering lots of out of state scholarships and those kids are taking them. The nursing program at MSU I hear is one of the best in the west, we need lots of nurses! Just one example of what is happening. I was talking to a friend who lives in Colorado Springs. His four children have all been offered something from MSU along with many others in the schools of Col Springs. Where is UM at in this ploy?

 

[MTGRZ]

I always come back to the quotes of wise man Winston Churchill and he has one of relevance to this exchange:

“The first duty of the university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we do not want a world of engineers.”

:clap: :thumb: :clap:

 

[AZGrizFan]

Bankers? I would have sworn Raider was a meteorologist in the real world. Shows you what I know.

Self-absorbed? Most certainly. Moronic? If you insist, But I draw the line @ being called a twit. Bastard.

:lol: :lol:

 

[garizzalies]

How many lawyers do we need? How many Engineers do we need? I think what they are offering in Bozeman is far greater than Engineers. They are offering lots of out of state scholarships and those kids are taking them. The nursing program at MSU I hear is one of the best in the west, we need lots of nurses! Just one example of what is happening. I was talking to a friend who lives in Colorado Springs. His four children have all been offered something from MSU along with many others in the schools of Col Springs. Where is UM at in this ploy?

It’s not even the best nursing program in the state

 

[MissoulaMarinerFan]

How many lawyers do we need? How many Engineers do we need? I think what they are offering in Bozeman is far greater than Engineers. They are offering lots of out of state scholarships and those kids are taking them. The nursing program at MSU I hear is one of the best in the west, we need lots of nurses! Just one example of what is happening. I was talking to a friend who lives in Colorado Springs. His four children have all been offered something from MSU along with many others in the schools of Col Springs. Where is UM at in this ploy?

It’s not even the best nursing program in the state

Yup, what garizzlies said (MSU-B I think). Also - the nursing program is at MSU. You can take just about all of your courses and clinicals in Missoula, but you do have to take at least 1 semester at MSU. Your pinning ceremony and degree is from state. My wife is a Griz through and through, but her degree is from Moo-U.