What??
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Bad Refs
- Thread starter PlayerRep
- Start date
What??
garizzalies
Well-known member
One foul that i saw (which was not called and nobody seems to be talking about) occured when Beitzel hit the three from the corner. Someone mentioned the push off. That's not what i'm talking about. Watch it again. There was a horrible moving screen. A UM player was trying to get to Beitzel to contest the shot and a UNC player pivoted and put his arm out and literally held the defender back (almost like blocking out). Probably hard for the ref to see tho as he's watching the shooter. i think you can do that on a rebound, or when posting up, but you can't do it to a ball defender or on a screen.
Water under the bridge. the griz lost it, not the refs. It's hard to blame refs when you miss the front end of a 1-n-1 (twice).
Water under the bridge. the griz lost it, not the refs. It's hard to blame refs when you miss the front end of a 1-n-1 (twice).
Cat Pride
Well-known member
garizzalies said:
Exactly. Hard to win any game where your team is out rebounded by 11 and you only shoot 63% from the free throw line
I am disappointed UM lost, I got to see them play as much as I did MSU this year. really appreciated their tough D, and thought they had a legit shot to beat a team in the first round of the NCAA. Thinking back to the start of February, UM was something like 15-5, 16-5 and on cruise control to hosting the Big Sky Tourney. I also think they were looking at a 12 or 11 seed as well - beating UCLA in LA was huge. Then February comes and they go 5-5... things were slipping away for whatever reason.
Cat Pride said:
I noticed a definite reluctance to shoot late in the season, especially from Selvig. He passed up so many open 3 looks the last few games, that I was pulling my hair out. Even Tinks was yelling for him to shoot the ball! But he just could not pull the trigger. Instead he would turn his back to the basket and start dribbling. Now, when a 7-footer starts dribbling, only bad things can happen.
Maybe I am a homer...
But it apeared to me that the ref looked down to see who had taken the charge...
Oh I dont know that guy, he must have committed the foul...
But it apeared to me that the ref looked down to see who had taken the charge...
Oh I dont know that guy, he must have committed the foul...
It is usually not difficult to determine whether a foul is a charge or block, when both players have their feet on the court. It is fairly easy to to see what happened; you don't have to see what happened, and when, in two locations; and you can pretty tell what happened by what happens after the contact. If the defender's shoulders are square and he falls straight backwards, and the offensive player has dipped his shoulder when the contact is made, that is almost always a charge.
It is more difficult to determine a charge when the offensive player has jumped off the floor into the defender. In that situation, the ref must determine whether the defender had his position with both feet planted (and didn't lean thereafter), before the offensive player went up in the air. Even determining when the offensive player actually took off into the air is not easy, and involves some judgment. In replay with a good angle or angles, one can usually see what occurred and when. However, in real time, and with other players blocking views, this is more difficult. Even in replay, there can be judgment as to when the offensive player took off, and the defender was set.
Knowing the rule and having ref experience is obviously important, but I believe having playing experience in defending and taking charges is also important. I sometimes wonder if some of these refs have ever really played the game. They seem to make calls based on being book knowledge but not on experience.
Beitzel is not going to get all of these BS calls in the ncaa's. They won't know who he is and won't care who he is.
NAU got hosed by the refs the previous night much worse than the Griz. One of last night's ref has a reputation in athletic department circles for being a fairly weak ref. While I don't know, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the better refs were not available for the tourney. One of last night's refs has the hots for a woman in Montana, but that sure didn't help us last night.
It is more difficult to determine a charge when the offensive player has jumped off the floor into the defender. In that situation, the ref must determine whether the defender had his position with both feet planted (and didn't lean thereafter), before the offensive player went up in the air. Even determining when the offensive player actually took off into the air is not easy, and involves some judgment. In replay with a good angle or angles, one can usually see what occurred and when. However, in real time, and with other players blocking views, this is more difficult. Even in replay, there can be judgment as to when the offensive player took off, and the defender was set.
Knowing the rule and having ref experience is obviously important, but I believe having playing experience in defending and taking charges is also important. I sometimes wonder if some of these refs have ever really played the game. They seem to make calls based on being book knowledge but not on experience.
Beitzel is not going to get all of these BS calls in the ncaa's. They won't know who he is and won't care who he is.
NAU got hosed by the refs the previous night much worse than the Griz. One of last night's ref has a reputation in athletic department circles for being a fairly weak ref. While I don't know, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the better refs were not available for the tourney. One of last night's refs has the hots for a woman in Montana, but that sure didn't help us last night.
Jaredkuehn
Well-known member
Colin Cowherd had a completely unrelated segment on the radio this morning about NCAA officials in general. The comment was that college officiating is inconsistent at best, across the board. They are generally over worked, inexperienced, out of shape and under trained. They are regularly intimidated by home team crowds and coaches. Road teams regularly draw more fowls, and the home teams have SUBSTANTIALLY better records across all conferences. I hated watching UNC get the calls agains NAU and UM. I agree with Cowherd that officiating is not a BSC issue, but a nationwide issue that transcends conferences. It will take the NCAA to commit more time, effort and money to training and compensating officials before we have "professional" officials.
There's a story (rumor) that's been going around eastern Idaho for several months that a local guy who is a college referee (Scott Thornley), who works numerous big conference games (PAC10, Big12 MWAC, MVC, WAC, C-USA), NCAA tourney games (14 straight years) and even Final Four games called the Big Sky and offered to do some games when he had open dates. The story goes that he was told unless he commits to doing BSC games the entire season he wasn't needed. Just a rumor...no confirmation. Don't know how it started or by whom, but it makes you wonder.
As an interesting side note http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/ has statistical breakdowns on many college referees. I just found that out today looking up the stats on Thornley. Very interesting...
As an interesting side note http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/ has statistical breakdowns on many college referees. I just found that out today looking up the stats on Thornley. Very interesting...
beastie
Well-known member
Win at EWU and UM has the home court advantage, which means the away teams get screwed. No excuse for losing that game at Eastern. You need the home court advantage when it matters most. Even though some calls went against the griz, we did not earn home court. Whether you like it or not, the home court IS AN ANVANTAGE. No one to blame besides us because we lost that game to EWU.
mtgrizrule
Well-known member
Being I am not part of any officiating membership, maybe someone that is or was can expand, explain, or answer.............basically shed the light on things.
(1) How does the BSC draw officials for Men's Basketball?
(2) What kind of experience is needed?
(3) Is it true that well qualified officials can get turned down by the BSC? I have heard some of the BSC officials pool comes from officials being at jr high, and/or hs level camps. If that is even somewhat true, then that is hypocrisy. I also have heard, many tenured/experienced officials have very little opportunity in the BSC, if they do not pay to attend certain camps.
(4) Do they want officials the BSC can train to do the way they want it to be done?
I pray our officials are not determined if someone is willing to pay top $$$$ to go to camps, then gets priority over seasoned officials.
I know there are some MOA's reading egriz.....even if you cannot/will not post on a public forum, would someone please give me/us some 411. Retired officials would be phenomenal.
I heard things like this several years ago, then after the BSC tournament debacle heard similar things again from different people. (Coincidence?)
I have no idea, but am sure there are some with information........we shall see what is found out, privately or publicly?
(1) How does the BSC draw officials for Men's Basketball?
(2) What kind of experience is needed?
(3) Is it true that well qualified officials can get turned down by the BSC? I have heard some of the BSC officials pool comes from officials being at jr high, and/or hs level camps. If that is even somewhat true, then that is hypocrisy. I also have heard, many tenured/experienced officials have very little opportunity in the BSC, if they do not pay to attend certain camps.
(4) Do they want officials the BSC can train to do the way they want it to be done?
I pray our officials are not determined if someone is willing to pay top $$$$ to go to camps, then gets priority over seasoned officials.
I know there are some MOA's reading egriz.....even if you cannot/will not post on a public forum, would someone please give me/us some 411. Retired officials would be phenomenal.
I heard things like this several years ago, then after the BSC tournament debacle heard similar things again from different people. (Coincidence?)
I have no idea, but am sure there are some with information........we shall see what is found out, privately or publicly?
SeaGrizluvr
Well-known member
I am watching my first college BB game since "The Game" and it makes me sick to my stomach(and sad) watching normal reffing and normal basketball play. If those piss poor refs were doing the Michigan/Ohio St. game, each team would be probably only have a couple players left who hadn't fouled out.
mtgrizrule
Well-known member
I too have been watching other tournaments. Nice to see the teams deciding the game, for the most part.
Here's what Mick Hoien said in his Missoulian blog (he agress with most of us):
"But then there’s the matter of a debacle that surely did not befit a championship contest with a national television audience that even drew the rare notice of ESPN announcers.
I’ve don’t often talk about officials, always preferring to try to paint an accurate picture but not one to raise the ire of our listeners because of my comments. They’re human and are going to see a different game than the fans, players or coaches.
In 26 years I have seldom seen a game determined, although surely occasionally influenced, by the manner in which a game is called or even individual whistles.
When you sit where I sit for most basketball games, and this happens to many announcers, it is easy to get caught up with the love of your team and the hope they succeed and the antics of coaches who are just trying to get consideration of that next call.
It’s all part of the game and some coaches are more inclined to whine, others to reasonably complain and still others to gain favor in other ways.
I’m sure most of you watched the game on television so you can make your own decisions about the level of officiating but what I saw from what I would describe as a veteran crew befitting a title game was officials that got caught up in the moment with a capacity crowd in a small environment.
Everybody enjoys being cheered at and few consider boos an indication of a job well done. It was one of those games with gut checks throughout, scratching and clawing by both teams for an NCAA bid and all a person asks for is consistency.
While I thought the Grizzlies did a great job trying to make it a one-possession game near the end, time and time again, and the stat sheets prove it out, slight contact was ruled a foul against Montana sending the best free throw shooting team in the league constantly to the line, while the shooter who drew contact going to the rim or in the block at the other end went unprotected.
The disparity in the number of fouls, the number of free throw attempts and the fact three Grizzlies fouled out, three times more than in any game this season, bears me out.
In a six-minute period in the second half there were seven fouls called, all against Montana.
But the outcome was epitomized in a two-point game when Chase Adams set up on the far sideline from me and in perfect position to defend Devon Beitzel who then turned right into him and was sent to the line for throws which sent the game into a two-possession virtual impossibility.
It was a charge or a travel and a turnover, not a blocking foul. It would take a lot of fortitude to make that call in front of a screaming student section.
The Big Sky Conference just has to be better than that, not just on a championship level, but every night out.
It’s unfortunate that any input from Missoula or from a Grizzly fan will be viewed as nothing but sour grapes and that of a poor loser.
Nobody likes their team to lose, but leagues protect their officials from scrutiny, choosing instead to fine or suspend coaches who offer public comment. Even officials have said certain members of their crew will get better and the league office is always sympathetic but the level of officiating has not kept pace with the speed and power of the game.
Some coaches have opined that maybe they have to take the public reprimand to embarrass the league to action. Others offer subtle comment that is on the cusp, but not over, the line and thus avoid public league comment.
Everybody can have a bad day or a bad game, and I’ve sure had my share, and as I said on Thursday’s radio show I have no idea whether or not the game would have turned out differently, but I would sure have liked a sense of consistency in a game that should be decided by student-athletes and not the zebras.
The Big Sky Conference seldom sees a raucous venue like Wednesday night but the league’s officials do plenty of games in larger and louder surroundings.
League teams deserve better-Is that really too much to ask?"
http://grizvox.com/2011/03/is-it-over/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"But then there’s the matter of a debacle that surely did not befit a championship contest with a national television audience that even drew the rare notice of ESPN announcers.
I’ve don’t often talk about officials, always preferring to try to paint an accurate picture but not one to raise the ire of our listeners because of my comments. They’re human and are going to see a different game than the fans, players or coaches.
In 26 years I have seldom seen a game determined, although surely occasionally influenced, by the manner in which a game is called or even individual whistles.
When you sit where I sit for most basketball games, and this happens to many announcers, it is easy to get caught up with the love of your team and the hope they succeed and the antics of coaches who are just trying to get consideration of that next call.
It’s all part of the game and some coaches are more inclined to whine, others to reasonably complain and still others to gain favor in other ways.
I’m sure most of you watched the game on television so you can make your own decisions about the level of officiating but what I saw from what I would describe as a veteran crew befitting a title game was officials that got caught up in the moment with a capacity crowd in a small environment.
Everybody enjoys being cheered at and few consider boos an indication of a job well done. It was one of those games with gut checks throughout, scratching and clawing by both teams for an NCAA bid and all a person asks for is consistency.
While I thought the Grizzlies did a great job trying to make it a one-possession game near the end, time and time again, and the stat sheets prove it out, slight contact was ruled a foul against Montana sending the best free throw shooting team in the league constantly to the line, while the shooter who drew contact going to the rim or in the block at the other end went unprotected.
The disparity in the number of fouls, the number of free throw attempts and the fact three Grizzlies fouled out, three times more than in any game this season, bears me out.
In a six-minute period in the second half there were seven fouls called, all against Montana.
But the outcome was epitomized in a two-point game when Chase Adams set up on the far sideline from me and in perfect position to defend Devon Beitzel who then turned right into him and was sent to the line for throws which sent the game into a two-possession virtual impossibility.
It was a charge or a travel and a turnover, not a blocking foul. It would take a lot of fortitude to make that call in front of a screaming student section.
The Big Sky Conference just has to be better than that, not just on a championship level, but every night out.
It’s unfortunate that any input from Missoula or from a Grizzly fan will be viewed as nothing but sour grapes and that of a poor loser.
Nobody likes their team to lose, but leagues protect their officials from scrutiny, choosing instead to fine or suspend coaches who offer public comment. Even officials have said certain members of their crew will get better and the league office is always sympathetic but the level of officiating has not kept pace with the speed and power of the game.
Some coaches have opined that maybe they have to take the public reprimand to embarrass the league to action. Others offer subtle comment that is on the cusp, but not over, the line and thus avoid public league comment.
Everybody can have a bad day or a bad game, and I’ve sure had my share, and as I said on Thursday’s radio show I have no idea whether or not the game would have turned out differently, but I would sure have liked a sense of consistency in a game that should be decided by student-athletes and not the zebras.
The Big Sky Conference seldom sees a raucous venue like Wednesday night but the league’s officials do plenty of games in larger and louder surroundings.
League teams deserve better-Is that really too much to ask?"
http://grizvox.com/2011/03/is-it-over/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PlayerRep said:
The three officials who worked the UNC-Montana game are also all PAC 10 officials. The three of them worked a combined 28 PAC 10 games this year. That doesn't make them "great officials," but it does illustrate that officiating is a nationwide problem, not just a Big Sky problem. Perhaps it is time for the NCAA to take over the hiring, training, evaluation and assignment of officials?
mtgrizrule
Well-known member
bengal said:
That has my vote. Might as well evenly distribute the screw ups. :thumb:
