Bad Refs

[Grizbeer]

So I play tennis early mornings on Thursdays at my club. Many there know I'm a Griz fan, and today I was proudly decked out in a Griz pullover during warm ups.

Four individuals came up to me independently and said (and I quote as closely as I recall):

"Man, sorry about the Griz last night. You guys got hosed".

"The refs didn't do you guys any favors, did they?".

"Wow. I don't recall ever seeing a game where every call went against one team like last night".

"The Griz should have won. That game was stolen from you. Montana was clearly the better team".


Now mind you, these are people in the Seattle area with absolutely no ties to the Griz. All of the conversations about the game were started by them (frankly, I was in no mood to talk about it), and the comments were not preceded by me saying anything about the officiating.

If completely independent people said the officiating sucked and was one-sided, I'm going to tend to believe them.

those are pretty damning statements, considering all those people are in the Seattle are and would have watched Superbowl XL and PAC10 football (who recently fired 11 officials, and didn't hire another 11 back). If anyone knows bad officiating it is Seattle area fans.

 

[Grizfan-24]

As a former official myself, the last call is debatable. When I got my official traning the clear line between a charge and block was the issue of advantage. In fact the issue of a defensive player moving had no real relevance in the determinance of a block. The feet don't have to be anchored, but the defender has to be in such a position that his displacement was caused by the offensive player moving through him. If the official determined the defensive player reached the point before the offensive player did, then the call is relatively easy. Charge.

The last call from hindsight probably exhibited a clear advantage for the offense, not the defense. At that moment in the game, as we are told an official cannot change his calls based upon the time of the game. Unfortunately humans being humans, that isn't a guarantee. That was a charge earlier in the game, and to a point the charge on Wood with 2 seconds left in the first half. Though admittedly, Wood's charge was far more obvious.

Look, I much as everyone was irritated by the type of officiating last night, but we have such a limited offense at times we aren't going to put the same type of pick and roll pressure UNC did. As a coach I have been on the winning side of events like this, and lost games because of FT advantage.

Bummer way to end the year, not how a team wants to go out. i do wish the best for UNC in the NCAA's.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Hate to say it, but there is really no way to complain about referees without coming across as a whiner. Seriously, no matter how bad the refs are, I think it's best to just suck it up and realize it's part of the game.

 

[votb]

My whole point is that if Montana had been inbounding the ball and the same call was made, in your favor, you would have embraced it and endorsed it wholeheartedly, just like Northern Colorado fans are doing today. I'm not saying all the calls made against Montana last night were good calls, but occasionally it happens. I swear at times in the past I've been sure the Big Sky has been out to "get" Idaho State, but I honestly have to admit there's no way the league was out to "get" Montana last night, so the refs were intentionally trying to make the Griz lose. It just didn't happen.

Growler 1, I truly appreciate your take on the matter, especially since you have a history as an official. In the past, I have taken officiating certification tests and passed, although my experience officiating games was years ago, and I have to step back occasionally to remind myself how hard the job really is. It's so easy as a fan or a broadcaster to take shots at officials (which I likely do way too much), because they don't always get it right. The truth is, every call an official makes either angers or pleases one side or the other...whether the call is right or wrong. So, as an official, there's no winning any popularity contest.

Eventually, every team is cost a game by a bad call(s) late in the contest. Maybe the call was a bad call last night...I didn't think so. But every coach worth his salt will then admit that his team should never have been in a position in where a bad call (or even several of them) should have cost them the game (i.e., see Rutgers coach).

It's an unusual thing for Montana fans to see their team get burned by fouls. But if you look at Northern Colorado's last 8 games before the Big Sky Tournament, they went to the line 30 or more times in four of those games...and two other games they shot 23 and 25 free throws...that IS their game. Their lowest attempted free throw output in that stretch? Thirteen, against Montana in Missoula (02/12/2011). I'm sure the Bears felt that game was a travesty. But since the Griz didn't do what was needed to host the tourney, it ended up with the team that did. Had the tourney been in Missoula, I can guarantee the officiating would have slanted a different direction.

I'm not happy the Griz lost and I'm not happy the Bears won...it is what it is, which is what I have to tell myself at the end of every game I watch. Like I said...I LOVE GRIZ fans! You guys are great and I wish all the other Big Sky schools had the same kind of fans, which would then make it the best conference in the country.

 

[Zootown Rox]

Let er' rip, boys!

Charging is defined as illegal contact by pushing or moving into another player's torso. Blocking is illegal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent.

It is generally accepted that the offensive player should be charged with a charging foul if the defense:

* was still, or moving sideways or backwards but not forwards, when contact occurred
* took a legal guarding position before the contact, that is, one with both feet on the floor
* was hit on the torso (as opposed to the arm or leg)
* respected the elements of time and distance

 

[wbtfg]

It's generally not a good idea not a good idea to put your post season future in the hands of the officials.

Especially when you play in the Big Sky Conference.

I think we've all known this for quite some time.

 

[Zootown Rox]

I don't know wbtfg it seems to work out for UNC.

 

['68griz]

Won't happen in the NCAAs....

 

[Gaeilge1]

While I understand the points made by most of the posters, (with the exception of the kool aid rants which are irrelevant to the topic), the biggest issue in officiating is consistency. If a game is called poorly with the ref's making all sorts of questionable calls as long as those calls are made the same way against both teams I can't argue with the way a game is called. But this did not happen in Greely, CO the past two days. There were several incident's where this can be shown but one of the more blatant was a charge call against Jordan Wood for MT when he was being guarded by Hughey(?) from NCU. This was the fourth foul against Wood and my recollection is that it was at about the 8 minute mark in the second half. At any rate Hughey was guarding Wood who took a pass in the paint. Wood turned to shoot the ball and was called for a charge. The replay showed that Hughey's feet were indeed planted but his upper body was clearly moving backward at the time of contact.

When you compare that call with the one against Chase Atkins for MT at the end of the game it is clear had the game been called consistently that call would have gone against Beitzel. There are several other examples that can be cited.

I will admit a bias and I know that several of you will say that this is what getting "homered" means. I also understand that the more aggressive team is often rewarded because of the style of play. However referee's are hired to be impartial and consistent. You can argue that they were impartial, but I don't see how one can argue that they were consistent.

 

[Cat Pride]

Don't blame it on officials... they may not have been great, but they did not cost you the game - wow. Those snivling about it look like whiny bitches. If you conspiracy theorists think the Big Sky was out to get UM... who do you think the conference would rather have in the tourney? UM who has been there before and can put a scare into someone or UNC who is making their first trip and might have to play in Dayton?

Aside from that, UM was outrebounded 37 to 26. You do have 2 7-footers on your squad and still got out boarded. That is why you lost if you ask me. That and the fact that you couldnt score in the final 5-6 minutes of the game when it counted. Oh... how many times did Qvale even touch the ball (until the last 2 layups)? Those reasons are why you lost, not because of a questionable blocking/charging call in the final minute.

 

[Growler1]

As a former official myself, the last call is debatable. When I got my official traning the clear line between a charge and block was the issue of advantage. In fact the issue of a defensive player moving had no real relevance in the determinance of a block. The feet don't have to be anchored, but the defender has to be in such a position that his displacement was caused by the offensive player moving through him. If the official determined the defensive player reached the point before the offensive player did, then the call is relatively easy. Charge.

The last call from hindsight probably exhibited a clear advantage for the offense, not the defense. At that moment in the game, as we are told an official cannot change his calls based upon the time of the game. Unfortunately humans being humans, that isn't a guarantee. That was a charge earlier in the game, and to a point the charge on Wood with 2 seconds left in the first half. Though admittedly, Wood's charge was far more obvious.

Look, I much as everyone was irritated by the type of officiating last night, but we have such a limited offense at times we aren't going to put the same type of pick and roll pressure UNC did. As a coach I have been on the winning side of events like this, and lost games because of FT advantage.

Bummer way to end the year, not how a team wants to go out. i do wish the best for UNC in the NCAA's.

You are correct in the "gaining an advantage" criteria for calling a block versus a charge. I used TIVO to stop that play. As you may know from officiating, a defensive player has as much right to any court position as does an offensive player. Upon stopping that play at the instant of contact, the defender's feet were clearly on the floor, his body was square to the contact, vertical to the floor without leaning into the contact. Beitzel had just dribbled the ball once...the ball was on the way back up to his hand at the moment of contact. Beitzel's momentum clearly initiated the contact. Bottom line, it was clearly a charge when dissecting it so thoroughly.

I still say the official got caught-up in the energy of a close game, in its final seconds, and made the call too damned quickly, without thinking through the elements which determine if it was a charge or block. If you watch the replay, the official was signaling a block before the Griz player had even hit the floor!! Hell, what's the hurry to make the call? The game will not progress. Take your freakin' time and get it right!

 

[Growler1]

Don't blame it on officials... they may not have been great, but they did not cost you the game - wow. Those snivling about it look like whiny bitches. If you conspiracy theorists think the Big Sky was out to get UM... who do you think the conference would rather have in the tourney? UM who has been there before and can put a scare into someone or UNC who is making their first trip and might have to play in Dayton?

Aside from that, UM was outrebounded 37 to 26. You do have 2 7-footers on your squad and still got out boarded. That is why you lost if you ask me. That and the fact that you couldnt score in the final 5-6 minutes of the game when it counted. Oh... how many times did Qvale even touch the ball (until the last 2 layups)? Those reasons are why you lost, not because of a questionable blocking/charging call in the final minute.

That call did not cost them the game, for sure. But, it prevented them from having 13 seconds to either tie or win, making it the most critical call of the game.

 

[EverettGriz]

Don't blame it on officials... they may not have been great, but they did not cost you the game - wow. Those snivling about it look like whiny bitches. If you conspiracy theorists think the Big Sky was out to get UM... who do you think the conference would rather have in the tourney? UM who has been there before and can put a scare into someone or UNC who is making their first trip and might have to play in Dayton?

Aside from that, UM was outrebounded 37 to 26. You do have 2 7-footers on your squad and still got out boarded. That is why you lost if you ask me. That and the fact that you couldnt score in the final 5-6 minutes of the game when it counted. Oh... how many times did Qvale even touch the ball (until the last 2 layups)? Those reasons are why you lost, not because of a questionable blocking/charging call in the final minute.

No one (or at least no one in their right mind) would debate or argue your points, Pride. Those are the reasons -- ultimately -- that the Griz lost the game. But the bottom line is that had the game been officiated equally, the Griz very likely would have overcome those things and still won. You are right: The Griz lost the game, the officials did not. However, with a properly officiated game the outcome may well have been different.

I for one would have at least liked the opportunity to see how the teams matched up on equal footing. Too bad we didn't get that chance.

 

[mlbowl]

Aside from that, UM was outrebounded 37 to 26. You do have 2 7-footers on your squad and still got out boarded. .

Oh...you must be talking about our 2 7-footers that played the entire second half in "foul" trouble :roll: ...are you for real?

 

[OptimusPrime]

Aside from that, UM was outrebounded 37 to 26. You do have 2 7-footers on your squad and still got out boarded. .

Oh...you must be talking about our 2 7-footers that played the entire second half in "foul" trouble :roll: ...are you for real?

So if you are in foul trouble, you can't rebound. Didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[mlbowl]

Aside from that, UM was outrebounded 37 to 26. You do have 2 7-footers on your squad and still got out boarded. .

Oh...you must be talking about our 2 7-footers that played the entire second half in "foul" trouble :roll: ...are you for real?

So if you are in foul trouble, you can't rebound. Didn't know that. Thanks.

It certainly plays a part in how agrressively you go after the ball, smart guy! Take your fucking retarded bs smack somewhere else.

 

[m616s6e]

To slightly change the subject, any of you big men out there like to comment on how they were able to lock down Qvale and why that didn't open something up for us?

By the way, I am pleased to hear the comments on officiating because I thought this was very one-sided but wouldn't have said so because I would have been called a whiner. Thanks for the reinforcement.

 

[OptimusPrime]

My bad, didn't know I was posting "smack," I was just mystified how being in foul trouble severely limits your ability to rebound. It certainly limits what you can do on defense, but saying foul trouble is the reason why two 7 foot tall players weren't able to rebound is stretching it. As I was told as a young'n playing basketball, "there is no excuse for not rebounding." Loose ball fouls on defensive rebounds aren't exactly called a lot on the defensive team. Carry on.

 

[GrizLA]

Aside from that, UM was outrebounded 37 to 26. You do have 2 7-footers on your squad and still got out boarded. .

Oh...you must be talking about our 2 7-footers that played the entire second half in "foul" trouble :roll: ...are you for real?

Well, it is a legitimate question.....fouls or not....

 

[GrizLA]

Aside from that, UM was outrebounded 37 to 26. You do have 2 7-footers on your squad and still got out boarded. .

Oh...you must be talking about our 2 7-footers that played the entire second half in "foul" trouble :roll: ...are you for real?

So if you are in foul trouble, you can't rebound. Didn't know that. Thanks.

It certainly plays a part in how agrressively you go after the ball, smart guy! Take your f***[*] retarded bs smack somewhere else.

Had one of those 7 footers made his shots, not dribbled the ball, and actually earned those fouls, we would be discussing who UM is going to play in the first round....