An apology from Rolling Stone

[argh!]

raider did indeed nail it, greenie. you know it.

 

[PlayerRep]

raider did indeed nail it, greenie. you know it.

Nope, total whiff. This is what most internet forums are designed to do. Many topics discussed don't have answers, are pointless, and are often beat to death.

 

[signedbewildered]

<<< Going back to read the "Days Until Griz Football 2015" thread some more.

 

[Umista]

We are experts. Ask any coach. Ask any reader. The answer stops on E-Griz! Florio was a jerk and did not report facts, just same old rape rape rape football...

 

[UMGriz75]

<<< Going back to read the "Days Until Griz Football 2015" thread some more.

Thank you for sharing your needs regarding your daily activities. It will, I am sure, be puzzling to some and inspiring to others.

 

[signedbewildered]

<<< Going back to read the "Days Until Griz Football 2015" thread some more.

Thank you for sharing your needs regarding your daily activities. It will, I am sure, be puzzling to some and inspiring to others.

Welcome

 

[grizcountry420]

raider did indeed nail it, greenie. you know it.

Nope, total whiff. This is what most internet forums are designed to do. Many topics discussed don't have answers, are pointless, and are often beat to death.

This!! Argh calls out greenie and PR responds to it..


:lol:

 

[getgrizzy]

For the Rolling Stone to "match" the Missoulian's coverage, it would have had to give the Reporter space in a news story to vent at her "enemies" and to denounce all those who criticized her coverage as living in a "testosterone soaked-universe," resorting to extremes of hyperbole and a ham-handed effort to "expose" the ownership of egriz and publicly embarass him. It was a nice personal use and exploitation of the journalistic franchise to pursue what had become a personal vendetta for Florio.

"Griz sports forum turns vulgar in wake of sexual assault scandal," by Gwen Florio

http://missoulian.com/news/local/griz-sports-forum-turns-vulgar-in-wake-of-sexual-assault/article_fd9c03ac-aeb5-11e1-9cdf-001a4bcf887a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In February, the university, the city and Missoula County announced a joint effort to urge sexual assault victims to call 9-1-1. But as YWCA executive director Cindy Weese pointed out Monday, women who do come forward are “villainized” in forums like eGriz.

There was not a single example of a post "villainizing assault victims" for "calling 9-1-1." The description was not just hyperbole, it was an outright lie. It was itself a shameful effort to create a staw man logical fallacy and then attack it as "representative" of ... you've got it, a group of "males!" But, just to ensure that no one misunderstood the blanket condemnation and the extent of her overt bias, Florio made sure to note that it was an entire "universe" of them. Despite her alleged journalistic prowess, she was unable to find a more nuanced expression of her accusation. Somehow, a "news editor" thought her broadside opinionated attack on her critics was worthy of a "news article." She was, after all, just another hapless victim, right?

The Missoulian's effort to create, as a news item, the demonization of an entire "group" by fabricating a "Hands Up! Don't Shoot!" myth upon which to score its overt "Narrative" was in fact despicable "journalism." The "Comments" section to that "news article" absolutely shreds the factual claims made, and points out that the Missoulian's own comments and news sections were, in fact, greater offenders by the Florio "standards" than egriz.

Of course, Florio's "Standard Source," YWCA Director Cindy Weese, was a voluble source of comments all about "the effects" on vulnerable women, et etc. of a forum they likely did not read, but offering, as usual, just the perfect quotes for the points Florio obviously wanted to make. It was very much like the "too good to be true" quotes that found Rolling Stone so enthusiastic.

This was a "news" story, written by the reporter who was the focal point of the coverage criticism, allowed to insert supportive editorial comments by her friends who later bestowed her with "awards" for her contribution to the "Narrative."

Rarely, in "real Journalism," are "reporters" allowed to cover themselves by writing self-justifying and abusive critiques of their critics, and call it news. However, at the Missoulian, this was not just "allowed," the behavior was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize.

In that regard, even the Rolling Stone met the higher standard by at least admitting it was wrong and apologizing ... instead of seeking prestigious awards for it.

Please give us your definition of villanizing.

 

[UMGriz75]

Please give us your definition of villanizing.

"Us?" Whom do you pretend to represent?

Florio's article is an outstanding example of an effort at "villanizing."

It is also an outstanding example of the abandonment of facts in favor of the anger and bias of a scorned journalist, allowed to use news columns to "vent" her very personal anger.

 

[Allezchat]

raider did indeed nail it, greenie. you know it.

Nope, total whiff. This is what most internet forums are designed to do. Many topics discussed don't have answers, are pointless, and are often beat to death.

So refute what he said. All I've seen you do in say he's wrong. Give us your closing arguments.

I'll get you started.

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury...."

 

[Allezchat]

As far as the book goes, I could see there being something about, prosecutor gets cushy job in private practice. *allow readers to draw conclusions about prosecutor who's name is on cans of crappy beer.

 

[PlayerRep]

raider did indeed nail it, greenie. you know it.

Nope, total whiff. This is what most internet forums are designed to do. Many topics discussed don't have answers, are pointless, and are often beat to death.

So refute what he said. All I've seen you do in say he's wrong. Give us your closing arguments.

I'll get you started.

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury...."

He needs to prove his statement is correct. I don't need to refute anything. I know getgrizzy will support me on this. Ha.

 

[mlbowl]

Please give us your definition of villanizing.

"Griz sports forum turns vulgar in wake of sexual assault scandal," by Gwen Florio

Do you really need to look any further than the above "unbiased" title? :roll:

How about putting an "alleged" in front of sexual assault. It seems pretty biased and villainizing to me.

 

[Allezchat]

raider did indeed nail it, greenie. you know it.

Nope, total whiff. This is what most internet forums are designed to do. Many topics discussed don't have answers, are pointless, and are often beat to death.

So refute what he said. All I've seen you do in say he's wrong. Give us your closing arguments.

I'll get you started.

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury...."

He needs to prove his statement is correct. I don't need to refute anything. I know getgrizzy will support me on this. Ha.

You're wrong. Now you have to prove you're correct that he is wrong. And I don't have to prove that I am right that you are wrong......boo ya.

 

[UMGriz75]

In the manner of the Rolling Stone takedown, one reader actually analyzed Florio's claims in her "news" article decrying the fact that she had critics of her reporting, and that if she had such critics, it was only because they lived in a "testosterone-soaked universe." Villainizing? Yeah a bit.

The Missoulian did not submit itself to a Columbia Journalism Review level of scrutiny as Rolling Stone recently did, but the results of reader analysis was just as devastating.

Jordan - June 05, 2012 4:08 pm
Ok, so it obvious that the only thing that Gwen Florio has accomplished by writing this article is proven that she lacks journalistic integrity. Gwen Florio has lost a lot of respect among Missoulian readers. She cannot produce an impartial article that involves the University of Montana. She cannot practice responsible journalism, nor take the criticism given her way.

pf1979 - June 05, 2012 5:45 pm
Having had inside knowledge of some of the cops and courts articles she writes about, her misinformation and name smearing goes much further than UofM and if you know the real story, you can tell that it's deliberate and calculated and directed at the people who are "not on her side". I've never seen such one sided opinion based reporting passed off as journalism in my life. How she can write some of the garbage she does, knowing full well what she's doing with the intent to harm people's lives is repulsive. The sad part is, I think Lee and the Missoulian encourage it to get eyeballs on their articles and stir emotion, good or bad. I read the Brian Holm article today and i just know there's more to it than she's reporting. I'd like to call the dude a sleezebag but who knows what really happened, we're not going to get much more than National Enquirer level facts with whatever side Gwen happens to be on looking rosey and the other side being demonized.

Lamplighter - June 05, 2012 2:32 pm
Ah Gwen. That big brush you have wielded so freely, and for so long, has finally painted you into a very small corner. It's hard to tell which is more damning - your incredible naivete about the internet culture or your modus operandi of picking and choosing through fact, pseudo-fact and outright fiction to find the pieces that match your inexplicable vendetta against a great university and those of us who support it...Your beat, cops and courts, has no place on the op-ed page...Surely you know the difference

Greenland - June 05, 2012 3:01 pm
It really does appear overall to simply be an effort to "out" the board owner, by publicizing his name and linking him to his employer, creating a link to the University that it was likely very few knew. Florio knew what she was doing here, and it wasn't "news," it was "outing" a source of criticism by attacking the guy who runs the hardware.

I went to the egriz site and did a sample search.

The C word brought up 36 references. I looked at the specific references.

The threads, with numbers of posts of the total (36) generating the search responses:

(15 hits) a thread entitled "Incredible story." That was a link to a May 25, 2012 LA Times article: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-rape-dismiss-20120525,0,3372200.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The story was about a black man who served 10 years in prison for a rape conviction that the "victim" finally admitted she had fabricated, in part to get a $1.2 million settlement from a school district. The outrage on egriz was that the "victim's" primary concern in coming clean was that she might have to give the money back. One poster posted that the alleged victim was the veritable "definition" of the C word. The majority of the repeat searches on the link were simply repeats of the original post, and notably in which several posters objected to the original use of the term. Florio failed to point that out.

(5 hits) "Jealous." The main thread using the C word was an extended criticism of the fact that someone had used the term at a basketball game to describe a player's Mom while the player was shooting free throws, the Mom happened to be at the game, and most posters wondered why the ref's didn't impose a penalty for the outrageous conduct. Misogynistic? The thread was a CRITICISM of the fact that the word was used at a game, how inappropriate it was, and whether or not penalties should have been imposed. Four of the references simply were quoting the original post describing the play action and the word used. Florio failed to point that out.

(4 hits) "Big Sky announces Future Football Schedules." The four references to the "C" word were in a name-calling of a well-known Bobcat troll. No women involved in thread. Three references were simply in "quoting" the original post.

(3 hits) Rob Ash's MSU Record." -- again, someone used the "C" reference to a male Bobcat fan. Two references were simply in quoting the original post.

(2 hits) "Goodbye Giz/Cat Game?" The search engine picked up the following post: "not sure if exhibition games "C-word" against the 1 team limit - the Griz normally play 2 NAIA games that count and 2 that are exhibition." The poster had apparently misspelled "count" and the forum software made a deletion and change. Nothing in the thread was about women. The two hits were typos. Florio counted those even though they were clearly typos.

Single references were as follows:

"Game at Eastern" A male poster referred to another male poster.

"What do you imagine E-griz football posters to look like" A series of links to on-line posters with various vulgar themes, ironically referring to and denigrating stereotypes of male sports fans.

"Missoulian Sportswriter Picked Cats," A single reference by one poster to another male poster.

"The Official Bobcat Excuse Thread." A derogatory term referring to the Bobcats.

"More Trouble for Mr. Donaldson." The only post using the term was in the context of criticizing its use as a generic name-calling of other males during disagreements.

"Florio Article." Somebody there did not like Ms. Florio, thinking she had fixated on the term.

There were, in fact, just two references using the word in the context of females.

One in the context of a highly publicized retraction of a rape claim in which a young man falsely accused went to prison. Florio has not noted that story in her own reporting oddly enough, even though of timely relevance to any controversy on the point.

The second reference was to Florio herself, in the context of writing a story about the use of the word.

The vast majority of references related to the use of the word were, in fact, critical of its use. A significant thread using the word was a unanimous objection to the word being used during game play, in the presence of a player's Mom, without a penalty being imposed.

Now, that represents just two uses of the word in contexts directly referencing women. That is out of 514,904 posts on the football forum. That's .0000038% of the posts.

Suffice it to say, Gwen Florio's portrayal is not just highly misleading, her statistical measure conflated the extremely few instances where the use of the term was genuinely abusive, to INCLUDE all instances -- the significant MAJORITY of instances -- where in fact posters found the use of the word objectionable!

That's not just highly misleading, that's dishonest reporting.

The Missoulian crossed a line here between advocacy and self-serving reporting by an involved reporter on the one hand -- bad enough -- to outright misrepresentations of the factual record.

This is disturbing. A Missoulian reporter obviously has attempted to fabricate a narrative -- one that fits a certain stereotype she apparently is attempting to promote -- about a football forum in which she counted, as evidence of misogynistic attitudes, the vast majority of the posts which were in fact exactly the opposite.

The fact that she would do this, in a "news" article, about a forum where she has been substantially and fairly criticized for biased reporting, and do so invoking the most overt misrepresentations as "evidence," indeed, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of posts were critical of the derogatory use of the term, really represents her own malicious attack on critics and on a culture where her own obviously well-developed stereotypes dominate her writing to the exclusion of honest news reporting.

Smith: "The vast majority of references related to the use of the word [on egriz] were, in fact, critical of its use. A significant thread using the word was a unanimous objection to the word being used during game play, in the presence of a player's Mom, without a penalty being imposed."

I spot checked, and that is true; on egriz the majority of posters using the term 1) were simply using the quote feature, and 2) objected to the use of the term. The second most populous thread was a unanimous condemnation of the fact that a player in basketball had used the term, expressing the belief that the inappropriateness in a sport context deserved at a minimum a referee penalty, most posters expressing the belief that the use of the term was outrageous..

But, disclosing that would have deflated Florio's obvious purpose. It was necessary, for that purpose, that Florio completely misrepresent "egriz."

Her reference to the 37 or so "posts" clearly implied that the number suggested a casual and common use of the term as evidence of a demeaning and misogynistic "culture" of football fans.

In fact, the survey above shows that the opposite was in fact true; that most posters there object to the use of the term for precisely the reasons that it is inappropriate and demeaning.

But, Florio would have lost her "story" meme -- one that she intentionally concocted against a board containing explicit criticism of her as a reporter -- had she told the truth about the actual "meaning" of those "hits" that she counted.

That is dishonest reporting, and the obvious effort, as noted, to "out" the forum owner was obviously completely malicious since she had to misrepresent the evidence in order to have a reason to do so in a "news" article.

I don't think I've seen a more blatant example of dishonest and malicious reporting -- that I have been aware of -- in the Missoulian.

Joseph - June 07, 2012 10:34 am
Griz fans support women and women's rights, always have. Montana was the first state to elect a woman to congress, before some states even allowed women to vote, and she (Janette Rankin) was from Missoula. The second most popular sports team at the UM is the women's basketball team. There are more women then men at the University. eGriz is not a misogynist website, see Greenland's debunking post on Florio's stats. Your post however is an example of negative stereotyping and generalization that does nothing but forward the idea of a nonexistent war of the sexes. Please realize that we are all on the same side standing up against violence and that misandry is no better than misogyny.

Greenland - June 05, 2012 11:35 am
Florio: "No action was taken on that comment or others similarly denigrating women."

The Missoulian forums have two or three regular female posters who continually denigrate men, inevitably as "bullies" among other things, while portraying at the same time women as delicate, hysterical, and unable to stand up for themselves, fitting precisely the attitude complained of by Florio's friend in her carefully sourced article, except the exact opposite in overt bias. But, routinely, "no action was taken on that comment or others similarly denigrating men."

But really, was this a "News" article?

I mean really, Gwen Florio just happened to call up the director of the YWCA to get her thoughts about a football forum on the Internet?

Just popped into her head?

"Gosh, you know, I bet the director of the YMCA reads egriz. I think I'll give her a call." Let me just speculate: this "article" did not originate for the purpose of "news" and I would bet that the reporter and the source happen to be personal friends. The Missoulian should disclose that.
I've never before seen a newspaper reporter, under heavy and somewhat justified criticism, sit down with her friends to concoct a "news" article clearly seeking to CREATE a story attempting to discredit a source of professional criticism.

animalfries - June 05, 2012 10:18 am
While it's disturbing, I preferred to just let this rape thing play out and not form an opinion. Gwen just packed the straw that broke the camel's back. I hope the truth comes out and everyone is able to move forward with their lives as best as possible....but I will now cancel my subscription to the Missoulian.

Cato - June 05, 2012 8:57 am
Very unusual as a news item; a reporter taking her critics to task because she doesn't like the language they use. I've glanced at egriz; some of the comments are very substantive. Most, not. Indeed, I don't care for much of the language used; but it's a chat board; who is Gwen Florio to take private chat boards to task because most participants don't like her reporting of events?

Yesterday, among the chaff on there, I read a devastating critique of the "scandal," as succinct as I've read anywhere.

Given what appears to be the hurried and emotional defensive hit piece/editorial masquerading as a "news item,"I wonder if that "hit home?"

Oliver - June 05, 2012 11:25 am
Breaking New Update ------ After searching nearly 770,000 posts on Egriz, Gwen found 37 offending words.

hg fisher - June 05, 2012 8:31 am
I wondered what the point of this article was until I got to, "The Missoulian’s reporting also attracts frequent fire on eGriz." Now I get it.

 

[hm.grwn.grizfan]

What drives me nuts are the comments on the news that carry a message such as, " the real victims in this case are the women who are actually victims of rape," as if it's no big deal that the accusations have the potential to ruin lives.

 

[getgrizzy]

75:
Weese said women who come forward are villanized by egriz. How is that statement incorrect when we have posters saying that she made a false accusation?

 

[UMGriz75]

Florio shares much in common with the Rolling Stone reporter Sabrina Erdely:

Sabrin Rubin Erdely started with a thesis and went in search of someone—and some place—that fit her thesis. She found Jackie and the University of Virginia. But, she admits, if she had discovered that Jackie was a liar, it wouldn’t have caused her to question her thesis. (To which the only response is, if that doesn’t cause you to question your thesis, what would?) Instead, she’d just go find another person who would better conform to what she already wanted to write.

And if that person proved to be a fraud as well, she’d find another…and another…

I am not a lawyer, so I don’t know if Phi Psi has a strong case against Erdely and Rolling Stone. But if the famed “actual malice” test—you are intending to defame someone—is relevant, it seems to me that Erdely has just given the fraternity some explicit evidence of such malice. Even if her “victim” was a liar, Erdely has no doubt: Frat boys are rapists.

http://www.richardbradley.net/shotsinthedark/2015/04/07/in-the-end-its-all-about-rape-culture-or-the-lack-thereof/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[getgrizzy]

What drives me nuts are the comments on the news that carry a message such as, " the real victims in this case are the women who are actually victims of rape," as if it's no big deal that the accusations have the potential to ruin lives.

False accusations are harmful. However, some people get accused of things they actually did (see John Gotti), but weren't convicted. Those people weren't harmed by the accusation.

 

[UMGriz75]

75:
Weese said women who come forward are villanized by egriz. How is that statement incorrect when we have posters saying that she made a false accusation?

She offered not a single actual example of an authentic victim who was "villanized" (sic) on "egriz."

On the other hand, every false accusation should be treated exactly for what it is, a contemptible and disgusting effort to cause permanent and devastating harm to others.