$9 Million More Budget Cuts for UM

[grizonbob]

This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had two months ago with a couple of college professors (not in Missoula or Bozeman). We were talking about how students' aspirations/expectations have changed over the years, and the professors told me that most of today's students are much more practical in their approach to picking a school and determining a major. Because of the nation's economic struggles, they said, most students look hard at what college programs will jibe with their interests but also give them the basis for a secure economic future. They also are more aware of the dangers of amassing big student loan debt while being in majors that won't pay off that debt after they graduate.

With its heavy emphasis on liberal arts and majors like history, education, languages, communication, arts, and so on, UM is at a disadvantage in that environment. Especially when the other big draw in Montana, where students also benefit from relatively cheap tuition fees, is a school that focuses much more on science and tech, and just generally the sorts of fields where a student knows he has a decent chance of finding a good-paying job once he graduates.

I've seen this phenomenon with young acquaintances who graduated from UM with liberal arts degrees, only to find that the piece of paper they earned after years of study just isn't that marketable. One returned to school to train in a computer-related field, the other isn't sure at all what they will do next. I've also seen this first-hand in my own family, as my wife and I both graduated from UM, but our kids picked MSU for the reasons I spelled out. I also noticed this recently in reading through some of the profiles of the new recruits MSU football has picked up. I recall reading, for example, the one on the Collins' kid from Bozeman, who was attracting interest from a number of schools. He said his first reaction was to get out of Bozeman so he could have some new life experiences. But after looking at academic programs, he decided he couldn't do any better than the engineering program at MSU.

This won't be an easy problem to fix. A lot of colleges that focus heavily on liberal arts are struggling. Maybe these latest budget cutbacks will even help by forcing those who work at UM to rethink their priorities, including folks who have resisted change for decades.

While I agree with this to some extent, I don't think that most kids entering college are looking that carefully at what courses/programs are offered, what they will go into, and what types of jobs they will be able to get upon graduation. More probably are now, but not the majority. More are paying attention to payment/loans/debt, and that is probably a good thing.

Given what you stated, how does that fit with the recent press that MSU's ag program is booming, or at least that was my impression. Ag is not growing and booming, and there are fewer opportunities in ag than there used to be--or am I not right on that?

I'm still a big believer in the value of a liberal education. Generally, I believe that makes students more well-rounded, more able to adapt in and to the future, more likely to be tolerant, etc. It's not the only way to achieve those things, but it's a good and proven way.

On the other hand, UM seems to be suffering now from too much emphasis, or press, on things that don't seem to be as useful. Also, too much emphasis or press on global warming or extreme environmental stuff/classes. Also, the word is that UM's course offerings have been reduced, or made less frequent, so that it's hard to get certain degrees, or get them in 4 years.

I agree with a lot of what you say, actually. I'm no expert in higher education and what "most" students think, and so I was just relaying what a couple profs told me, as it seemed relevant to this discussion. It rang true to me as it was backed up by what I've heard and seen from young people going to or just getting out of school. But admittedly this is a small sample, and anecdotal info. Would be interesting to see an actual breakdown from surveys on what factors kids look at as they pick a school. Suspect UM administrators have this kind of information as they plan their pitches to prospective students. But if they do, they aren't using it very effectively, it would seem.

I'm also no expert in the MSU ag department, tho I did note, like you did, that the school recently said it was raising its profile, or making it a bigger priority, by giving the dean a promotion. Going online, I see that they have over a thousand students. I don't know the enrollment trends over the years in that department, however.

As for whether demand for its grads is growing or not, I don't know that either. While the number of farmers and ranchers has been shrinking, that might not affect most of the grads in this department. Ag will continue to be a huge industry as people still have to eat, regardless of how many folks are producing that food. And I suspect there are lots of companies out there, like the Monsantos of the world, that are quite healthy and growing, and will need lots of skilled labor to help make ag more productive, etc. Also, a lot of MSU's ag students no doubt go to work for government agencies like the Forest Service, BLM, and so on -- and government isn't shrinking.

I don't disagree about the benefits of a liberal-arts education. But I know that MSU has even students in science/tech programs taking these sorts of classes as part of their college experience. One example: One of my kids, who got an engineering degree, had to take a course his last year that involved going to ten or so lectures and workshops, and they all had to be on topics outside engineering. Then they had to write reports on them and discuss. It is still possible to give students some grounding in liberal arts while training them for science jobs and the like.

I also think, like you, that UM has suffered from image problems like those you describe. Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful response.

 

[GrizLA]

At Stanford, perhaps, the most pragmatic university in this hemisphere, the Core Curriculum based on the humanities was not an option. It was required. Lately, has been adjusted, but the humanities are recognized as the base of ANY college or university education.

 

[PlayerRep]

From a Jan. 2014 study of 29 elite liberal arts colleges in the US:

"The “sticker price” of higher education has risen 538% since 1985—compared to a “mere” 286% increase in medical costs and a 121% increase in the consumer price index during the same time period."

"In a recent survey, 93% of employers asserted that mastery of a range of skills that are traditionally associated with the liberal arts was more important than the college major."

"Yet students have have been migrating from arts, humanities and social sciences to fields that seem to promise easier paths to employment, like communications and business."

"Over the five years between 2007-08 and 2012-13—in other words, over the course of America’s Great Recession—these institutions increased their “sticker price” anywhere from 6.2% to 17.1%, adjusted for inflation. Given the full cost of attendance, an undergraduate degree would total between $213,000 and $245,000. In all cases, a single year’s attendance exceeds the national median household income of $52,762. It is not comforting to know that at many of these institutions, expenditures on administration exceeded one-third the amount spent on instruction; in one instance, more than 58%."

http://www.goacta.org/images/download/education_or_reputation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Grizzoola]

At Stanford, perhaps, the most pragmatic university in this hemisphere, the Core Curriculum based on the humanities was not an option. It was required. Lately, has been adjusted, but the humanities are recognized as the base of ANY college or university education.

The liberal arts are still the heart and soul of higher education, regardless of major, and that's as it should be. That's what a bachelor's degree is all about and should remain so. Businesses in hiring don't look at only technical competence, but more than that. Especially if the applicant is applying for a management or even an engineering position.

Even 2-year occupational programs that offer degrees insist on some liberal arts courses for those degrees, and those are practitioners in the field. Liberal arts will, and should, always be with us.

 

[AZGrizFan]

What percentage of universities, even in an "all-in" cost scenario, cost over $60,000 per YEAR? I mean, what's in-state tuition at UM? I know at Arizona State it's about $7,800/semester. Not sure where they're getting their figures, but those seem about right--for an Ivy League education...

 

[grizonbob]

What percentage of universities, even in an "all-in" cost scenario, cost over $60,000 per YEAR? I mean, what's in-state tuition at UM? I know at Arizona State it's about $7,800/semester. Not sure where they're getting their figures, but those seem about right--for an Ivy League education...

I have a child who graduated recently from MSU and they were paying about $6500 a year in tuition. With all the other costs added in, came to about $13K a year. UM, I believe, charges the same tuition as MSU, tho some of the fees might be different.

I recall seeing a study a year or two ago, by the way, that produced a list of the country's best values in education. The study essentially compared cost of the school with the salaries its graduates were getting. Montana Tech was one of the highest on the list, beating even most of the Ivy League schools. Which makes sense, I guess, when you consider that tuition there would be relatively low and most of the graduates can be expected to find good-paying jobs in mining, energy and other industries that pay good wages. MSU also did fairly well, while UM was a ways down the list.

 

[PlayerRep]

In this return on investment study, MT Tech is 80th in 2013 and 282nd in 2012. In 2013, it is 5th in the Mountain region schools.

http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tech is 4th in this list of bargain schools. http://www.investinganswers.com/personal-finance/career-job-hunting/forget-harvard-10-bargain-colleges-where-grads-make-50k-immediat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[griz4life]

State funding of higher ed is a significant contributor to the rapid increase in cost to students. Montana, like other states, has steadily decreased its contribution to a state resident's tuition. For more than 20 years the Legislature has debated whether to freeze state tuition support or cut support. Once the cut is made, there's no turning back.
That trend has affected out of state tuition, which is now more than 100 percent of actual cost to generate money to cover declining state support.

 

[cclarkblues]

My daughter will be attending RMC this fall. The tuition is over $24,000 per year.

 

[cclarkblues]

At Stanford, perhaps, the most pragmatic university in this hemisphere, the Core Curriculum based on the humanities was not an option. It was required. Lately, has been adjusted, but the humanities are recognized as the base of ANY college or university education.

The liberal arts are still the heart and soul of higher education, regardless of major, and that's as it should be. That's what a bachelor's degree is all about and should remain so. Businesses in hiring don't look at only technical competence, but more than that. Especially if the applicant is applying for a management or even an engineering position.

Even 2-year occupational programs that offer degrees insist on some liberal arts courses for those degrees, and those are practitioners in the field. Liberal arts will, and should, always be with us.

Are you sure you don't like it just because it contains the word "liberal"?

 

[Grizzoola]

The liberal arts are still the heart and soul of higher education, regardless of major, and that's as it should be. That's what a bachelor's degree is all about and should remain so. Businesses in hiring don't look at only technical competence, but more than that. Especially if the applicant is applying for a management or even an engineering position.

Even 2-year occupational programs that offer degrees insist on some liberal arts courses for those degrees, and those are practitioners in the field. Liberal arts will, and should, always be with us.

Are you sure you don't like it just because it contains the word "liberal"?

Not sure where you got the idea I don't like the word, "liberal." Maybe reread my post. :roll:

 

[PlayerRep]

My daughter will be attending RMC this fall. The tuition is over $24,000 per year.

That's alot of money, and as you well know, there's alot more cost than tuition. My daughter will be attending one of these top law schools next fall, where tuition is, yipes, over $50,000. At least, starting salaries at some top law firms are now approaching $175,000, with an opportunity for a bonus. Of course, the associated billable hours are probably in the 2500 range.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[tgreseth]

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/hey-liberal-arts-grads-theres-hope-you-yet-salary-study-2D11972905

 

[grizonbob]

In this return on investment study, MT Tech is 80th in 2013 and 282nd in 2012. In 2013, it is 5th in the Mountain region schools.

http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tech is 4th in this list of bargain schools. http://www.investinganswers.com/personal-finance/career-job-hunting/forget-harvard-10-bargain-colleges-where-grads-make-50k-immediat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't remember what group did the study I saw a while back that had Tech as one of the top school's in the country in terms of return on investment. Didn't find it in a quick google search, but did find this one by bestcolleges.com that had them listed 19th among all the nation's public schools. (I don't know that their rating would drop a lot if you included private schools, since so many of them are so pricey.)

http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/best-roi-colleges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also found this one that rates Tech No. 8 in the US in terms of the schools that earn graduates the top salaries in engineering and computer science fields. (And those would be among the best-paying industries, I presume)

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/nerdscholar/2013/engineering-computer-science-degrees/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tech also finished 24th on this list of the top 30 colleges in the US for starting salaries for their graduates. The survey doesn't address the cost of school for those grads, but in looking at the survey it is clear that Tech's have to be considerably lower than most of those listed.

http://www.thinkadvisor.com/2013/05/21/top-30-colleges-for-highest-starting-salaries-2013?page=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this piece, the head of Tech's petroleum engineering program says the average starting salary for one of their grads is now $85K, plus they usually get signing bonuses. Holy cow!

http://www.fairfieldsuntimes.com/articles/2012/10/02/news/doc506b32050f9e5029015409.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Buttegrizzle]

Don't lose sight of the fact that getting educated is not the same thing as getting trained. The old adage, "an MSU grad learns how to do something...a UM grad learns why. "

There is still demand for educated people. The real-world on-the-job training will follow.

 

[cclarkblues]

The liberal arts are still the heart and soul of higher education, regardless of major, and that's as it should be. That's what a bachelor's degree is all about and should remain so. Businesses in hiring don't look at only technical competence, but more than that. Especially if the applicant is applying for a management or even an engineering position.

Even 2-year occupational programs that offer degrees insist on some liberal arts courses for those degrees, and those are practitioners in the field. Liberal arts will, and should, always be with us.

Are you sure you don't like it just because it contains the word "liberal"?

Not sure where you got the idea I don't like the word, "liberal." Maybe reread my post. :roll:

Au contraire, I think you misread mine...

 

[PlayerRep]

In this return on investment study, MT Tech is 80th in 2013 and 282nd in 2012. In 2013, it is 5th in the Mountain region schools.

http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tech is 4th in this list of bargain schools. http://www.investinganswers.com/personal-finance/career-job-hunting/forget-harvard-10-bargain-colleges-where-grads-make-50k-immediat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't remember what group did the study I saw a while back that had Tech as one of the top school's in the country in terms of return on investment. Didn't find it in a quick google search, but did find this one by bestcolleges.com that had them listed 19th among all the nation's public schools. (I don't know that their rating would drop a lot if you included private schools, since so many of them are so pricey.)

http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/best-roi-colleges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also found this one that rates Tech No. 8 in the US in terms of the schools that earn graduates the top salaries in engineering and computer science fields. (And those would be among the best-paying industries, I presume)

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/nerdscholar/2013/engineering-computer-science-degrees/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tech also finished 24th on this list of the top 30 colleges in the US for starting salaries for their graduates. The survey doesn't address the cost of school for those grads, but in looking at the survey it is clear that Tech's have to be considerably lower than most of those listed.

http://www.thinkadvisor.com/2013/05/21/top-30-colleges-for-highest-starting-salaries-2013?page=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this piece, the head of Tech's petroleum engineering program says the average starting salary for one of their grads is now $85K, plus they usually get signing bonuses. Holy cow!

http://www.fairfieldsuntimes.com/articles/2012/10/02/news/doc506b32050f9e5029015409.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously, Tech grads do very well, especially for the lower cost. The $85,000 for petroleum engineer grads plus bonus is particularly impressive. Thanks for doing the research. Very interesting. I assumed Tech engineer grads did fairly well, but didn't realize how well they do.

 

[Grizzly Oredigger]

In this return on investment study, MT Tech is 80th in 2013 and 282nd in 2012. In 2013, it is 5th in the Mountain region schools.

http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tech is 4th in this list of bargain schools. http://www.investinganswers.com/personal-finance/career-job-hunting/forget-harvard-10-bargain-colleges-where-grads-make-50k-immediat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't remember what group did the study I saw a while back that had Tech as one of the top school's in the country in terms of return on investment. Didn't find it in a quick google search, but did find this one by bestcolleges.com that had them listed 19th among all the nation's public schools. (I don't know that their rating would drop a lot if you included private schools, since so many of them are so pricey.)

http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/best-roi-colleges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also found this one that rates Tech No. 8 in the US in terms of the schools that earn graduates the top salaries in engineering and computer science fields. (And those would be among the best-paying industries, I presume)

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/nerdscholar/2013/engineering-computer-science-degrees/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tech also finished 24th on this list of the top 30 colleges in the US for starting salaries for their graduates. The survey doesn't address the cost of school for those grads, but in looking at the survey it is clear that Tech's have to be considerably lower than most of those listed.

http://www.thinkadvisor.com/2013/05/21/top-30-colleges-for-highest-starting-salaries-2013?page=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this piece, the head of Tech's petroleum engineering program says the average starting salary for one of their grads is now $85K, plus they usually get signing bonuses. Holy cow!

http://www.fairfieldsuntimes.com/articles/2012/10/02/news/doc506b32050f9e5029015409.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously, Tech grads do very well, especially for the lower cost. The $85,000 for petroleum engineer grads plus bonus is particularly impressive. Thanks for doing the research. Very interesting. I assumed Tech engineer grads did fairly well, but didn't realize how well they do.

Yeah and the Petroleum Engineering Degree is probably the easiest of the engineering degrees to obtain at the school...but you might have to live in Texas, the Dakotas, or the Middle East...no thanks

 

[Grizzoola]

There is still demand for educated people. The real-world on-the-job training will follow.

One of the best, truest things ever said on this board. :clap: :thumb:

 

[GrizzGriz]

Just a simple observation..I live in Idaho, I have a daughter who is a sophomore at UM and another daughter who is a sophomore in high school . Yesterday my daughter in high school received a letter from MSU...ironically my daughter in Missoula is a marketing major. Hmmmmm.

Now my HS daughter has received a letter from Carroll College....still no letter from UM where her sister attends, but MSU and Carroll are asking her to apply. Why on Earth wouldn't UM be asking siblings to attend??????