$9 Million More Budget Cuts for UM

[Washgrizfan1]

The only thing that needs to be cut is President Engstrom. In his job objectives I'd like to know what he's actually exceeded or ever met (at this point?) In my line of business he'd be listed as underperformer / needs improvement. That equates to unemployed and looking for a new job.

But hey, in America (and last I checked still includes Montana) we hold onto bad pennies. Underperformers are CELEBRATED!

...nuff said.

Go Griz!

If the University of Montana/Board of Regents want to "cut" President Engstrom, it should be considered or done before he gets his next contract renewal (next fall?). After X years of service (maybe 5), he is entitled to a very large additional severance/golden parachute (maybe $250,000 or even $500,000), according to what I have heard.

 

[GrizPony]

I've heard the BOR already quietly re-upped his contract so he now qualifies for that parachute. Clueless, rudderless, failure!

 

[Grizzoola]

The universities run the BOR, not the other way around.

 

[bandit218]

Here's what I think the problem is. It's more practical than what many of you are assuming about the leadership issues at UM. Despite UM's strong history of producing business people, pharmacists, and attorneys, it just doesn't attract a base of students that can actually make money in the real world.

The education bubble is bursting - not just at UM but across many state institutions. State schools have to remain competitive as they produce graduates that actually can be gainfully employed so that the school can represent that employment data to potential students.

A perfect example of why UM may be losing money is its law school and the school's declining enrollment. UM Law has shifted towards an unsustainable focus on Indian Law and environmental law. While in theory these are important to segments of the Montana population, they don't supply every day Montanans with the type of lawyers they need to do business transactions, divorces, bankruptcies, etc. UM cannot honestly represent to potential graduates that it has a high rate of job placement if its focus continues to move in that direction.

The State of Montana needs UM. This isn't just about the Cats or the Griz - it is about two different schools with two very different agendas. They are supposed to compliment each other - one school may not be the best for a potential student while the other may suit them perfectly. I hope UM can regain its focus on producing graduates that can give back to the state and represent to potential students that the investment in higher education is worth it.

From what I have heard, the Law School is ranked top 5 nationally, for an increase in enrollment numbers. So they will again have a full 1st year class.

 

[wbtfg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Law Schools can pretty much set the number for each entering class based on how many seats and generally turn down a pretty large percentage of applicants. I assume UM is in this boat? Are there many reputable law schools out there who are admitting everyone who applies?

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

About 4 months ago I commented on here that the reason for decline at the UofM is because the University refuses to move into the new revolution of American jobs. I get the whole land grant and liberal arts argument. But the UofM refuses to take advantage of the economic powerhouse to the east. Why? because its Oil and Gas based and UM refuses to have anything to do with that sector. More than half the jobs in the Bakken region are technology or even water related, why cant UM take advantage of those jobs? Instead they insist on having a curriculum based off of a large amount of careers that employers simply aren't looking for these days, hold the law school, pharmacy and business school.

 

[Pin2Win]

About 4 months ago I commented on here that the reason for decline at the UofM is because the University refuses to move into the new revolution of American jobs. I get the whole land grant and liberal arts argument. But the UofM refuses to take advantage of the economic powerhouse to the east. Why? because its Oil and Gas based and UM refuses to have anything to do with that sector. More than half the jobs in the Bakken region are technology or even water related, why cant UM take advantage of those jobs? Instead they insist on having a curriculum based off of a large amount of careers that employers simply aren't looking for these days, hold the law school, pharmacy and business school.

That change would be nearly impossible to complete is a timely fashion that would benefit anybody. UM has built its identity on other very strong fields and needs to look at those strengths to feed and branch from those where the infrastructure is already in place. You can't grow a new engineering department overnight. The initial investment would be millions upon millions of dollars and would be a significant detriment to the overall health of the university system. Allocating significant funding to a new venture that will takes years, if not decades, to even be able to compete and is not a wise investment of money in the short term. MSU and Tech have strongholds on these industries already and UM would just be trying to cannibalize on others within the Montana University system, which would hurt Montana higher education overall. Similar revenue, whole new expense. In the long term, that may not be a good strategy. The Bakken does have decades of work there, but what happens when that eventually dies down (which WILL happen someday)? Will that be winding down just as UM is making a serious impact? Unfortunately my crystal ball doesn't tell me.

Feed your strengths, starve your weaknesses. Decreased enrollment doesn't necessarily need to be a bad thing if reacted to in the proper fashion. There are pockets of the University that may suffer because of it. But like any business when economies shift, tough decisions need to be made that may result in a more profitable venture long term. Gross revenue vs. net profit. UM is an incredible school with a wealth of opportunity. I honestly don't know what other things RE is doing within the university to make an accurate assessment on if he is doing some good things or not. On the surface though he appears to be failing.

 

[Mich Griz]

I am a U of M grad and that's where my heart is. I have taken a couple of my nieces and nephews out to Missoula and showed them around the U as they were considering attending. Last fall my niece asked me to take her to Bozeman and show her MSU (her interests were in engineering). So I agreed.

The difference in the way both schools treated these kids as prospective customers was night and day. The U was rather cavalier and not very polished in their approach. They handed the kids a bunch of brochures. We had a large group tour of campus they showed a video and that was it.

In Bozeman there was a white board outside the admissions office "Welcome to MSU" with the name of each of that days kid and their home towns on the board. There was 6 kids that day. When she walked in the door they knew who she was by her looks and she had never been there before. I suspect they went on Facebook and knew what she looked like. It was unbelievable they knew. They took her into an office always addressing her by her name offered her a beverage and an individual told her about the programs and prices and asked if she had any questions. Then a student came in and gave her a individual tour of the student service buildings; bookstore, cafeteria, health service, rec center and dorms etc. Another student took over and gave a her a tour of the academic areas. Everyone kept talking about "Their President" (an Asian woman) and what a dynamic person she was and how much she's done for the students the campus and facilities. Everyone loved her.

Then they invited us to attend their football game and had complimentary tickets for us (no I didn't cheer for the Cats) In our seats the people around us were also visiting campus. The parents I talked to were totally impressed. They had all visited numerous schools and MSU really impressed them with their friendliness and they all talked about the feeling that they cared about their students.

The next day they posted on my nieces twitter page that she had visited Montana State as a prospective student. Believe it or not that was a huge deal for her. All of a sudden her phone lit up with texts from her friends asking her about it, what it was like. How big was it? Was it cool? Did she liked it?

I hate to say in but MSU kicked out ass by 6 touchdown 3 fgs and one tweet. She is going to be a Bobcat next fall. My sister (her mother) has implored her to at least look at other options just to be sure. She won't even look anywhere else. They totally won her over and I have to say they looked great. The dorms are being remodeled, there's a new multi million dollar business school an alumni donated, on and on and on.

 

[first11]

Under Engstroms 'leadership' UM has taken a freefall to depths previously thought impossible. Now that parachuting into WGS has been effectively eliminated, perhaps he could use "Free Fallin'" as his theme song, though Tom Petty might object.

...so easy to simplify years of malfeasance and dump all on engstrom....how about the many years that dennison reigned supreme....this stuff took a while to play out. Surely current administration has bungled but it took a village to conjure up this building fiasco.

 

[bandit218]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Law Schools can pretty much set the number for each entering class based on how many seats and generally turn down a pretty large percentage of applicants. I assume UM is in this boat? Are there many reputable law schools out there who are admitting everyone who applies?

There are actually law schools doing drastic things like offering free tuition for those three years if their scores are high enough.

 

[GrizLA]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Law Schools can pretty much set the number for each entering class based on how many seats and generally turn down a pretty large percentage of applicants. I assume UM is in this boat? Are there many reputable law schools out there who are admitting everyone who applies?

There are actually law schools doing drastic things like offering free tuition for those three years if their scores are high enough.

The world does not need more lawyers. Many think much of our present malaise is the result of lawyers. Of course, they don't think so, but just try starting a business or much of anything else and they will make their presence known. What UM could do is put emphasis on Pharmacy, Health and Research, Math and related studies. It is unfortunate that Montana has chosen to maintain so many campuses, most of which offer similar programs at the expense of a School or College of Medicine or Public Health. A point above was raised and it is true that the Eastern Mont/Dak oil fields is a "new Butte" and will eventually play out, either by itself or by other means not even seen or developed. What then? Butte is a great town but a shadow of itself and surviving mostly on Fed and State largesse. UM has done fine but could do more. Too soon to panic. I agree, that the leadership is somewhat lacking compared to other "flagship" schools.

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

Royce Engstrom has no imagination, let alone administrative competence. He can't see the forest for the trees. Case in point: Missoula College. MC is a community college. At least that's what it's supposed to be, given the MT University System's declaration that all MT 2-year colleges should be community colleges.

Now, you may have your own opinion of community colleges. The important thing is, is that they are COMMUNITY colleges. They serve a local clientele, not the clientele that a university serves.

RE came in under Dennison & Dennison enwrapped the 2-year schools within the university fold. A tragic mistake. RE came from South Dakota which has 2-year schools OUTSIDE university control. What does he do at UM? Jettison's everything he knows is true re: community colleges & blindly follows what Dennison decreed: that MT community colleges, which include Missoula College, be appendages of the universities, rather than institutions completely separate from the universities.

So what is MC, now? A disembodied school, scattered among 3 campuses, when there could be one, consolidated campus west of Ft. Missoula, where the current industrial programs of MC are. All in the name of keeping MC physically close to UM. Locating MC at East Broadway is a mistake.

All this is to give you one more example of why RE is not the president UM needs. He's a guy who lives in his own mind, regardless of circumstances. IOW, he has no imagination/vision.

You sum up perfectly why the formerly named COT and all other such schools in Montana should not be under University system's control. The U system sees these schools as a feeder program (more butts in U system seats=more state dollars) when the value lies in making sure basic skills are there, the 3 rs and then solid technical training like the welding, medical tech and culinary programs, to name a few.

They get a solid footing in far less time and money, then leave with marketable skills. That should be the mission, not trying to lure a few more students into gender studies and that ilk. We already have a lot of over educated wait staff around town , no need to subsidize that over skills that enable people to come out of school actually being able to make a living.

I was working out of town when this change happened and it's a fiasco any way you look at it. It doesn't help the U or the students seeking technical training and why the regents can't see it is astounding.

 

[MissoulaMarinerFan]

Another big issue with "keeping grads in state after graduation" is that MT really has an issue with "hey, you live in MT, that's a perk in itself, so here's less money." Granted, there isn't much to go around (money), but with the cost of tuition going up and up (even in-state), why stay in a state that will pay you crap, after graduation (I'm not saying you should be "entitled" to getting a high paying salary) when you can move a state or two away and get your loans paid off faster, because you can do the same job in a different state and make more right off the bat?

 

[griz4life]

Not sure what you're talking about, green jeans. Billings cranks out welders at a pretty good pace. No one is pushing those students into four year degrees. Same for mechanics if Missoula students are being pushed into four year programs, that is a local thing, not a university system thing.

 

[1Griz_Fan]

It's not poor old Engstrom's fault...he is the solution not the problem...the guy is so great he may well be the best prez of anything all time...bar none!!!

NOT...F**K :finger: YOU R0YCE ENGSTROM :evil: ...You little punk BEE-ATCH :stupid: ...said it before but UM and Missoula are screwed with this incompetent idiot in charge, that includes academics, athletics and all they (used to) bring to the community.

R.I.P. UM

 

[tnt]

Not sure what you're talking about, green jeans. Billings cranks out welders at a pretty good pace. No one is pushing those students into four year degrees. Same for mechanics if Missoula students are being pushed into four year programs, that is a local thing, not a university system thing.

It was a Dennison thing continued by Engstrom. Dennison decided that all (most all anyway) of the vocational programs should be "Associate of Applied Technology" degree programs rather than certificate. We have at present no small number of students in Missoula having trouble in the Small engines program (among others) completing the program because they can't get into their correct English, Psychology or Psychology courses. They have completed all of their technical courses but are employable because they can't pass general psychology and finsih the program.

There are two that I know of that flunked out of the regular university over ten years ago that have come back as adults done very well in their vocational programs but can't graduate because their cummulative GPAs include their attempt at regular degrees programs. (it forces them to stay an extra semester or two taking crap courses of no use to them or their trade

The biggest issue is that both Dennision and Engstrom have used the Missoula College to cut costs in general by using "less qualified" (lower degreed) faculty to teach entry level courses. Not all course have to be taken on the mountain campus) By doing this they keep out of dutch with the accrediting folks and pass off glorified High School teachers as University Faculty.

 

[Grizzoola]

Another big issue with "keeping grads in state after graduation" is that MT really has an issue with "hey, you live in MT, that's a perk in itself, so here's less money." Granted, there isn't much to go around (money), but with the cost of tuition going up and up (even in-state), why stay in a state that will pay you crap, after graduation (I'm not saying you should be "entitled" to getting a high paying salary) when you can move a state or two away and get your loans paid off faster, because you can do the same job in a different state and make more right off the bat?

As they say, "You can't eat the scenery."

 

[Grizzoola]

Not sure what you're talking about, green jeans. Billings cranks out welders at a pretty good pace. No one is pushing those students into four year degrees. Same for mechanics if Missoula students are being pushed into four year programs, that is a local thing, not a university system thing.

The thing is, City College (Billings) has its own campus, across town from MSU-Billings. Missoula College should also have its own campus. I agree UM doesn't see MC so much as a feeder school (which all community colleges are with their associate degrees), as some bizarre desire to include MC students in the same classes as regular UM students. Apparently it is for enrollment/money reasons, not the benefit of the students, or Missoula, itself.

It was a Dennison thing continued by Engstrom. Dennison decided that all (most all anyway) of the vocational programs should be "Associate of Applied Technology" degree programs rather than certificate. We have at present no small number of students in Missoula having trouble in the Small engines program (among others) completing the program because they can't get into their correct English, Psychology or Psychology courses. They have completed all of their technical courses but are employable because they can't pass general psychology and finsih the program.

Well, all community colleges (CCs) have both certificate programs and degree programs, including Missoula College. The problem you cite is just what I said, above: Dennison, & then RE, push MC students into the same classes with regular UM students. CC teachers are, for the most part, former HS teachers with at least the MA or industrial experience equivalent, whose focus is on the student, solely.

I'd venture to say that if the students you cite were able to take their psych classes at a separate MC campus, they would be able to complete their programs, on time. Yes, psych classes at MC would duplicate psych classes at UM; the difference is, the STUDENTS are different. Not inferior, but different.

Dennison & now RE ignore this fact for what I think is purely monetary reasons to the benefit of UM, not to the benefit of the students. What they have done & are doing runs counter to over 100 years of successful CC operation. It's mind-boggling. What's worse, official Missoula & the enterprises that would benefit most from a separate MC are going along with this nonsense.

 

[JSWNBBY]

This is all directly attributable to what our President did related to the allegations against JJ and alleged "sexual assaults." No ifs, ands or buts. The firings, the reporting, and national attention has cost us millions in our reputation and marketing. He mishandled the situation fro the very beginning, and I was always more worried about my University than our football program. We will not fully recover for this for at least five to ten years. This will not be the worst year, next year will be worse,and then the response will be to cut, not expand, and if he is in charge my University will continue to decline. He needs to resign immediately, or perhaps we should set up some type of process where he will be denied due process at every turn like he did to JJ.

 

[UMAlum]

Royce Engstrom has been the president for over three years. His honeymoon ended long ago. Giving him a pass based on Dennisons prior approaches makes no sense. When a leader has no vision of his own they usually look around elsewhere to see whats working (and from those outside his inner circle). Apparently he hasn’t done that. If nothing else, get a good marketing consultant in to begin a proper approach for recruiting students. This could be done right away. In addition, he ought to begin a process for defining an updated and comprehensive vision for UMs higher ed role.