Defensive Scheme

[Ut-Grizfan]

Mentioned on another thread but losing Loud just reinforces my idea that we need to change our Defensive scheme up, if it's so difficult and "exotic" to learn expecting a bunch of new portal guys to learn it and execute in a timely manner every year is a recipe for disaster.

We need to adapt to the new normal, something that is easy to learn and effective to adapt to the turnover we're going to have to deal with every year.

 

[5280Griz]

What exactly do you think you’ve cleared up? That you don’t agree with me on what constitutes “gimmicky” or not. Who cares.
The proof is in the results.
If the 3-3-5 is such a great scheme why aren’t more championship caliber teams running it? If it’s so awesome why are teams converting 3rd and forever REGULARLY against it? If it’s such a sound defense why are GOOD teams able to sustain 8 minute game clinching drives against it? And even some not so good teams have had their way with it.
Everyone says football is a copy cat sport, which it is, so why aren’t more teams copying our scheme??? I mean it’s awesome…right?

This issue is you are treating the 3-3-5 like it is one static thing. There are a bunch of different ways to run it and most teams morph into 4 or 5 man fronts anyway depending on the situation. The results come from personnel fits, how it is coached and what is called on 3rd down, not just front labels.

Bad 3-3-5 teams do not prove the scheme is bad anymore than bad 4-2-5 teams prove even fronts don’t work. 3rd and longs and long drives can cause rush lane issues, missed tackles or the wrong individual play call. Those show up in any defense regardless of the front label.

 

[5280Griz]

Mentioned on another thread but losing Loud just reinforces my idea that we need to change our Defensive scheme up, if it's so difficult and "exotic" to learn expecting a bunch of new portal guys to learn it and execute in a timely manner every year is a recipe for disaster.

We need to adapt to the new normal, something that is easy to learn and effective to adapt to the turnover we're going to have to deal with every year.

I think trying to limit the turnover by developing the guys we already have with strength and conditioning, focusing on beating MSU and winning high school recruits in Montana that we can have on the roster as depth guys for multiple seasons learning our scheme before starting is going to be more effective than just changing the scheme.

 

[Ut-Grizfan]

I think trying to limit the turnover by developing the guys we already have with strength and conditioning, focusing on beating MSU and winning high school recruits in Montana that we can have on the roster as depth guys for multiple seasons learning our scheme before starting is going to be more effective than just changing the scheme.

And the chances of implementing all those changes and starting to win the in State recruiting battle by next season or in the near future are what? Don't think they're that good atm. It's our reality unless Bobby and Co. surprise everyone and make the necessary changes that we're going to be dependent on the Portal in the near future, time to adapt and do what gives us the best chance to succeed.

 

[5280Griz]

And the chances of implementing all those changes and starting to win the in State recruiting battle are? Don't think they're that good atm. It's our reality unless Bobby and Co. surprise everyone and make the necessary changes that we're going to be dependent on the Portal in the near future, time to adapt and do what gives us the best chance to succeed.

Unfortunately, in my opinion the chances of starting to regularly beat State on the field and in the recruiting battle are low until Bobby or Vigen moves on. I just think the portal is too hit or miss especially if we are making a run to the championship like in 2023, our results from the portal will be poor for the following season. Winning the high school recruiting battle seems like the way to sustained success to me but I could be wrong.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Unfortunately, in my opinion the chances of starting to regularly beat State on the field and in the recruiting battle are low until Bobby or Vigen moves on. I just think the portal is too hit or miss especially if we are making a run to the championship like in 2023, our results from the portal will be poor for the following season. Winning the high school recruiting battle seems like the way to sustained success to me but I could be wrong.

Except you don't know what you are talking about. Nor do you know what the Griz coaches are trying to accomplish.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Mentioned on another thread but losing Loud just reinforces my idea that we need to change our Defensive scheme up, if it's so difficult and "exotic" to learn expecting a bunch of new portal guys to learn it and execute in a timely manner every year is a recipe for disaster.

We need to adapt to the new normal, something that is easy to learn and effective to adapt to the turnover we're going to have to deal with every year.

We have adapted to a new normal. You are the one who needs to adapt now.

 

[Ut-Grizfan]

Unfortunately, in my opinion the chances of starting to regularly beat State on the field and in the recruiting battle are low until Bobby or Vigen moves on. I just think the portal is too hit or miss especially if we are making a run to the championship like in 2023, our results from the portal will be poor for the following season. Winning the high school recruiting battle seems like the way to sustained success to me but I could be wrong.

Oh I agree with you we need to be a hell of a lot better when it comes to recruiting high school recruits, developing and retaining them but as you just highlighted, I have little to no confidence that that's going to be resolved anytime soon.

With that being the case there are still things we can do to try and bare minimum maintain our level of success, running an exotic defense that has overall struggled against the top of the FCS with high turnover due to the Portal is not the answer or sustainable. Switching to a defensive scheme that is much easier to learn and implement I feel would give us the best chance of success, at least in regards to what we can accomplish now and in the short-term.

 

[5280Griz]

Except you don't know what you are talking about. Nor do you know what the Griz coaches are trying to accomplish.

Here comes Hoops with the insults and deflections without any substance into why he has his opinion.

 

[gotgame75]

Here comes Hoops with the insults and deflections without any substance into why he has his opinion.

Who needs substance when you have faith, insults, and Bobby-scented scratch and sniff jock straps?

 

[RobGriz]

This issue is you are treating the 3-3-5 like it is one static thing. There are a bunch of different ways to run it and most teams morph into 4 or 5 man fronts anyway depending on the situation. The results come from personnel fits, how it is coached and what is called on 3rd down, not just front labels.

Bad 3-3-5 teams do not prove the scheme is bad anymore than bad 4-2-5 teams prove even fronts don’t work. 3rd and longs and long drives can cause rush lane issues, missed tackles or the wrong individual play call. Those show up in any defense regardless of the front label.

I’m referring to the Joe Lee Dunn designed Rocky Long style 3-3-5 as it’s ran by the University of Montana Grizzly football team in the Bobby Hauck 2.0 era.
Though, I still have yet to see a championship caliber team run an 3-3-5 of any variety.
And it’s most assuredly not the defense being played by the majority of top teams in either the FBS or the FCS.
I of course realize that there are variations of the 3-3-5. I have yet to be impressed by any of them though ISU’s does intrigue me and the 2023 Griz defense was good and even very good at times

 

[mthoopsfan]

Here comes Hoops with the insults and deflections without any substance into why he has his opinion.

You are the one with no substance and who doesn't have a clue about football. That isn't an insult. It's the truth.

 

[mthoopsfan]

I’m referring to the Joe Lee Dunn designed Rocky Long style 3-3-5 as it’s ran by the University of Montana Grizzly football team in the Bobby Hauck 2.0 era.
Though, I still have yet to see a championship caliber team run an 3-3-5 of any variety.
And it’s most assuredly not the defense being played by the majority of top teams in either the FBS or the FCS.
I of course realize that there are variations of the 3-3-5. I have yet to be impressed by any of them though ISU’s does intrigue me and the 2023 Griz defense was very good.

Georgia. "Of any variety"?

Look at the the first part of the video. 15 seconds.

"Run UGA & Kirby Smart's 3-3-5 TITE Defense in College Football 25!!!"

 

[5280Griz]

I’m referring to the Joe Lee Dunn designed Rocky Long style 3-3-5 as it’s ran by the University of Montana Grizzly football team in the Bobby Hauck 2.0 era.
Though, I still have yet to see a championship caliber team run an 3-3-5 of any variety.
And it’s most assuredly not the defense being played by the majority of top teams in either the FBS or the FCS.
I of course realize that there are variations of the 3-3-5. I have yet to be impressed by any of them though ISU’s does intrigue me and the 2023 Griz defense was very good.

The style we run is built on movement and chaos, which looks great when we have the right guys for it such as Gubner in 2023. Championship teams win titles with all kinds of fronts 4-2-5, mint/tite, odd hybrids etc. The scheme isn’t a magic button that wins or loses games. Championship winning teams have a scheme that fits their roster and recruiting. The 2023 Griz defense is a great example of how this defense can work with better personnel and cleaner execution.

 

[RobGriz]

The style we run is built on movement and chaos, which looks great when we have the right guys for it such as Gubner in 2023. Championship teams win titles with all kinds of fronts 4-2-5, mint/tite, odd hybrids etc. The scheme isn’t a magic button that wins or loses games. Championship winning teams have a scheme that fits their roster and recruiting. The 2023 Griz defense is a great example of how this defense can work with better personnel and cleaner execution.

I don’t recall saying anything about “magic buttons”.
And stop talking like you’re the only one in the conversation and like no one has a base defense and everyone is just running some kind of 3-3/3-4/4-3/4-2 hybrid and no one has a base defense.
But let me get this right, you’re saying it’s not our defense that’s the problem, it’s that the coaches can’t recruit for it or that they can’t teach it? Geez, maybe if it’s that hard to coach and get players for it isn’t the right defense. MSU has a pretty good defense. They seem to have no problems recruiting for it or teaching it. Per Colter their defensive playbook is 4 pages long. Wow…so complex.
In the 7 years Hauck has been back the defense has been good to very good 1 year. One. That’s it. Keep defending it.

 

[5280Griz]

I don’t recall saying anything about “magic buttons”.
And stop talking like you’re the only one in the conversation and like no one has a base defense and everyone is just running some kind of 3-3/3-4/4-3/4-2 hybrid and no one has a base defense.
But let me get this right, you’re saying it’s not our defense that’s the problem, it’s that the coaches can’t recruit for it or that they can’t teach it? Geez, maybe if it’s that hard to coach and get players for it isn’t the right defense. MSU has a pretty good defense. They seem to have no problems recruiting for it or teaching it. Per Colter their defensive playbook is 4 pages long. Wow…so complex.
In the 7 years Hauck has been back the defense has been good to very good 1 year. One. That’s it. Keep defending it.

The staff hasn’t gotten the right mix of players for the defense they want to run. What is your opinion on if it is poor recruiting, teaching or strength and conditioning? It could be a combination of all 3. That is different than the earlier statement that the 3-3-5 is a gimmick.

 

[Ursus1]

Except you don't know what you are talking about. Nor do you know what the Griz coaches are trying to accomplish.

What they are trying to accomplish? Clue us in in what they are trying to accomplish. I thought that it was beating cats, win conference, win natty. So how long do they get to “try” and accomplish these goals before even you realize there are serious issues that if not addressed it is just putting off the the inevitable? It ain’t happening with what they have been trying and with this years roster turnover it will likely be another year of failure to meet the three goals and Vigen is winning on all fronts and he is not going anywhere next year and he knows what it takes and is doing what it takes.

 

[Missoula223]

What exactly do you think you’ve cleared up? That you don’t agree with me on what constitutes “gimmicky” or not. Who cares.
The proof is in the results.
If the 3-3-5 is such a great scheme why aren’t more championship caliber teams running it? If it’s so awesome why are teams converting 3rd and forever REGULARLY against it? If it’s such a sound defense why are GOOD teams able to sustain 8 minute game clinching drives against it? And even some not so good teams have had their way with it.
Everyone says football is a copy cat sport, which it is, so why aren’t more teams copying our scheme??? I mean it’s awesome…right?

I apologize that you weren’t paying attention to the entire conversation. The discussion was whether or not the 3-3-5 is a “gimmick defense.” Given that it’s basically 1 of 2 options vs 11 personnel, it is not.

Please find anywhere in any of my recent posts where I advocated that it was such a great scheme. Not sure what you think you are arguing about there. In fact, I said that I had called defenses for 14 years and 11 of which, were 4 down fronts.

But if you want to have the discussion I will happily indulge you since it’s a happy talking point that “no championship teams do it.”

Do you really think that none of the championship caliber defenses line up in 3 down fairly regularly on base downs? Both Georgia and Alabama have made money off 3 down and mint fronts in the recent past. If run defense is such a big issue, what defensive front do you prefer to be in? Wouldn’t you like a 0 nose if you knew you were getting gap scheme run game?

 

[5280Griz]

I apologize that you weren’t paying attention to the entire conversation. The discussion was whether or not the 3-3-5 is a “gimmick defense.” Given that it’s basically 1 of 2 options vs 11 personnel, it is not.

Please find anywhere in any of my recent posts where I advocated that it was such a great scheme. Not sure what you think you are arguing about there. In fact, I said that I had called defenses for 14 years and 11 of which, were 4 down fronts.

But if you want to have the discussion I will happily indulge you since it’s a happy talking point that “no championship teams do it.”

Do you really think that none of the championship caliber defenses line up in 3 down fairly regularly on base downs? Both Georgia and Alabama have made money off 3 down and mint fronts in the recent past. If run defense is such a big issue, what defensive front do you prefer to be in? Wouldn’t you like a 0 nose if you knew you were getting gap scheme run game?

How does the personnel at Alabama and Georgia compare to Montana in your opinion and is it close enough to use as an example of how situational 3 down looks win championships at Alabama and Georgia so it will work at Montana? Particularly do you think the personnel at Alabama/Georgia and Montana is comparable in their ability to hold up the run game?

 

[Ut-Grizfan]

I apologize that you weren’t paying attention to the entire conversation. The discussion was whether or not the 3-3-5 is a “gimmick defense.” Given that it’s basically 1 of 2 options vs 11 personnel, it is not.

Please find anywhere in any of my recent posts where I advocated that it was such a great scheme. Not sure what you think you are arguing about there. In fact, I said that I had called defenses for 14 years and 11 of which, were 4 down fronts.

But if you want to have the discussion I will happily indulge you since it’s a happy talking point that “no championship teams do it.”

Do you really think that none of the championship caliber defenses line up in 3 down fairly regularly on base downs? Both Georgia and Alabama have made money off 3 down and mint fronts in the recent past. If run defense is such a big issue, what defensive front do you prefer to be in? Wouldn’t you like a 0 nose if you knew you were getting gap scheme run game?

I mean if we had the $$ to get the players that Alabama and Georgia can get on Defense I don't think we'd be having this discussion about the 3-3-5 on here to begin with. Not very comparable based on the types of personnel we can recruit vs who they can recruit alone.