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Defensive Scheme

GriznMN said:
Their base defense is a 3-3-5 although the alignment on certain down and distances makes it look like a 3-4-4 or 4-3-4 with a buck.

Travis Niekamp, ISU's defensive coordinator, attends Rocky Long coaching seminars at coaching clinics and should be a familiar name with Griz fans.

The #1 fundamental on defense is effort. What is true for basketball and wrestling is true for football - #1 fundamental is effort!
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I don't know the linage of their defense. the reason I feel this is closer to a 43 hybrid is because I see 2 DT's, a DE and a jack/buck. I normally think of Longs 335 as having one NT and 2 ends. Depending on the situation one end may move in and a LB align on the end. what it comes down to is who is the hybrid player, is it a DE/DT or is a a LB/DE. Really in comes down to if you have 2 hybrid players or one in your front.

I guess when I look at ISU I don't see anything like um's version of the 335 (which I think is heavily influenced by Longs version of the 335), I see more similarities with the 43 when it comes to personnel and alignment.

Either way I think ISU has one of the better defenses that MSU has seen this year. Gonna be a tough physical game for sure.
 
The.Real.2506 said:
I don't know the linage of their defense. the reason I feel this is closer to a 43 hybrid is because I see 2 DT's, a DE and a jack/buck. I normally think of Longs 335 as having one NT and 2 ends. Depending on the situation one end may move in and a LB align on the end. what it comes down to is who is the hybrid player, is it a DE/DT or is a a LB/DE. Really in comes down to if you have 2 hybrid players or one in your front.

I guess when I look at ISU I don't see anything like um's version of the 335 (which I think is heavily influenced by Longs version of the 335), I see more similarities with the 43 when it comes to personnel and alignment.

Either way I think ISU has one of the better defenses that MSU has seen this year. Gonna be a tough physical game for sure.
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Agree. That isn’t a true 3-3-5, IMHUO.
 
The.Real.2506 said:
I don't know the linage of their defense. the reason I feel this is closer to a 43 hybrid is because I see 2 DT's, a DE and a jack/buck. I normally think of Longs 335 as having one NT and 2 ends. Depending on the situation one end may move in and a LB align on the end. what it comes down to is who is the hybrid player, is it a DE/DT or is a a LB/DE. Really in comes down to if you have 2 hybrid players or one in your front.

I guess when I look at ISU I don't see anything like um's version of the 335 (which I think is heavily influenced by Longs version of the 335), I see more similarities with the 43 when it comes to personnel and alignment.

Either way I think ISU has one of the better defenses that MSU has seen this year. Gonna be a tough physical game for sure.
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Correct on all fronts except ISU’s defense is more of a 3-3-5/4-2-5 hybrid. Their “jack” can play both d-line and LB. Otherwise you’re dead on.
 
RobGriz said:
Correct on all fronts except ISU’s defense is more of a 3-3-5/4-2-5 hybrid. Their “jack” can play both d-line and LB. Otherwise you’re dead on.
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I don't agree that they play a 4-3 hybrid because the NT is always 0 tech (eyes-up with the center) and they play a lot of Bear fronts with 4-0-4 techniques and two LBs as 5 techs on 1st and 10s
 
The.Real.2506 said:
I don't know the linage of their defense. the reason I feel this is closer to a 43 hybrid is because I see 2 DT's, a DE and a jack/buck. I normally think of Longs 335 as having one NT and 2 ends. Depending on the situation one end may move in and a LB align on the end. what it comes down to is who is the hybrid player, is it a DE/DT or is a a LB/DE. Really in comes down to if you have 2 hybrid players or one in your front.

I guess when I look at ISU I don't see anything like um's version of the 335 (which I think is heavily influenced by Longs version of the 335), I see more similarities with the 43 when it comes to personnel and alignment.

Either way I think ISU has one of the better defenses that MSU has seen this year. Gonna be a tough physical game for sure.
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It's not a true 3-3-5 stack like the Griz run but they make adjustments from the 3-3-5 to bring a buck to the line and the NT still is 0 tech. It's similar to what the Griz ran a lot this year with 3 hands in the dirt (NT with 0 tech) and a buck with 2 LBs. Almost like a 4-2-5 but not 4 hands in the dirt and DL at 4-0-4 techs.
 
RobGriz said:
Correct on all fronts except ISU’s defense is more of a 3-3-5/4-2-5 hybrid. Their “jack” can play both d-line and LB. Otherwise you’re dead on.
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They are all hybrid defenses. but to me I think of a 425 as having a nickel (hybrid S/LB) and ISU has bigger LB's that are more hybrid to LB/DE.

I am not completely disagreeing but the personnel doesn't really look like a 425 to me, but they play quite similar
 
GriznMN said:
It's not a true 3-3-5 stack like the Griz run but they make adjustments from the 3-3-5 to bring a buck to the line and the NT still is 0 tech. It's similar to what the Griz ran a lot this year with 3 hands in the dirt (NT with 0 tech) and a buck with 2 LBs. Almost like a 4-2-5 but not 4 hands in the dirt and DL at 4-0-4 techs.
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425 will still play with an up DE, good points though
 
RobGriz said:
To me any defense not concerned with gap integrity is gimmicky. A defense that favors undersized linemen over “average” or “normal” sized linemen is gimmicky. Any defense that takes nfl caliber talent all over the field to run consistently well is gimmicky. Are there are better options schematically to run against 11 personnel? I believe so but that’s a matter of opinion. But as I alluded to in my previous post it doesn’t matter what we run if we’re going to keep the average weight of our d Line 250 pounds and our secondary doesn’t have the 2 shutdown corners it needs to run effectively.
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There are really 2 options on defense. 3-3-5 or 4-2-5. Both of which are used nationwide. Not sure how that in itself is a gimmick.
 
Missoula223 said:
There are really 2 options on defense. 3-3-5 or 4-2-5. Both of which are used nationwide. Not sure how that in itself is a gimmick.
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One, as pointed out, by me, several times was designed in 1987 to cover up for roster deficiencies that somehow became a viable option for a defense. The other was designed, as you pointed out, as a viable way to deal with 11 personnel. Because Gary Patterson is a genius.
 
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RobGriz said:
One, as pointed out, by me, several times was designed to cover up roster deficiencies in 1987 that somehow became a viable option for a defense. The other was designed, as you pointed out, as a viable way to deal with 11 personnel. Because Gary Patterson is a genius.
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Gary Patterson led TCU in the Rose Bowl game in particular comes to mind, was alot of fun to watch their Defense. That being said unless we get some serious beef on the lines we're going to continue to struggle IMO I'm afraid regardless of scheme.
 
Ut-Grizfan said:
Gary Patterson led TCU in the Rose Bowl game in particular comes to mind, was alot of fun to watch their Defense. That being said unless we get some serious beef on the lines we're going to continue to struggle IMO I'm afraid regardless of scheme.
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No words truer. Look it ISU’s d line. Talk about serious beef. But I was told by the current staff that getting linemen like that at this level was impossible
 
GriznMN said:
I think you meant to say "There are really 2 options on defense. Odd or even fronts"
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I don’t mean to put words in his mouth and I may be incorrect but I believe he was saying that versus 11 personnel the only options are those 2 defenses.
 
HikeGlacier said:
A defense giving up five plays of over 70 yards is gimmicky.
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Learn something about the Griz defense and how it is designed to sometimes give up good plays to still be very big overall, which the stats say is the case.
 
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GriznMN said:
I think you meant to say "There are really 2 options on defense. Odd or even fronts"
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I don’t disagree with you there. Im not saying scheme isn’t an issue. But people on here scream “3-3-5 is bad and a gimmick” and can’t articulate why without talking in generalizations or commenting on personnel.
 
RobGriz said:
One, as pointed out, by me, several times was designed in 1987 to cover up for roster deficiencies that somehow became a viable option for a defense. The other was designed, as you pointed out, as a viable way to deal with 11 personnel. Because Gary Patterson is a genius.
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I still can’t figure out the 3-3-5 is the daunting gimmicky schematic issue that posters treat as the boogeyman. So if someone can explain that to me without commenting on personnel, technique, or coaching I’m all ears!
 
HikeGlacier said:
A defense giving up five plays of over 70 yards is gimmicky.
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Ahh Hike back with some articulate football knowledge. Indulge me Hike. What scheme should they run? What fronts should the grizzlies play?

Without discussing personnel, poor technique, or coaching, this is your time to impress the board with you in depth takes on what the grizzlies need to play and how they need to play it. Go!
 
Missoula223 said:
I still can’t figure out the 3-3-5 is the daunting gimmicky schematic issue that posters treat as the boogeyman. So if someone can explain that to me without commenting on personnel, technique, or coaching I’m all ears!
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The 3-3-5 is good against spread teams which in our conference last year were Eastern Washington and Portland State. The 4-2-5 is better against downhill run teams like Montana State. The argument is our scheme should be based on beating Montana State and not Eastern and Portland State because MSU is our main rival whereas EWU and PSU are largely Big Sky cellar dwellers.
 
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