Where's the Outrage?

[ilovethecats]

I personally don't believe one is worse than the other. they are both repulsive and disgusting. unless we're going to start counting victims in thee crazy cases which I don't think is right either.

msu will certainly not go untouched in this mess.

 

[alabamagrizzly]

Y’all do know that football’s a much bigger sport and gets a lot more attention than gymnastics in general, right?

Yes, I do.

So, are you saying that it's more okay for an MSU and US team doctor to blatantly assault over 100 young girls, with dozens of people knowing something, and multiple complaints, for 25 years; but it's not okay for an assistant and then former asst coach to assault 25 or boys, with perhaps one little piece of knowledge at Penn St, 15 or so years. And this is because one is football, and one is gymnastics?

This is part of the reason I started this thread, and why the topic relates to football. I am curious as to whether people think that football is what drove the Penn St scandal. And whether it was people's love or hate of football, or both.

Hammer, you should be ashamed of yourself. It’s one thing to think that. Most humans can’t control their impulse thoughts. But to actually put that out into the open is disgusting. All the ladies in your life should get to collectively line up and kick you in the balls. And not one after another. Like one per day to truly draw out the agony. On second thought, I pray there are no women in your life and if there are I pray for them and how you’ve probably treated them.

Ok, I may have overreacted a bit but it’s still an incentive comment. Please excuse me. I’m the father of a six year old girl that loves gymnastics so this hits home a bit.

 

[zengriz]

...the upside to trump...
...somehow we end up with pence...
...women's rights stripped to the core...

... :shock: ...

 

[GGNez]

Oh boy....following this thread closely. Just published a book about my daughter being sexually abused by a trusted person and all of the dynamics involved. I recently spoke at a sexual abuse conference with Matt Sandusky (adopted son and victim of Jerry). Matt and I are collaborating efforts to educate about this issue. Zen is on to something, I think. It’s possible that it’s much more repugnant and offensive to imagine boys being raped by a man vs girls. Idk. But, I think Penn State having been a football powerhouse is part of the drastic downfall. Same mindset that caused our local community to virtually ignore criminal behavior of Griz players under Stitt but spotlight them under Hauck while we were a dominant force. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

 

[Gaeilge1]

I am not a psychiatrist, psychologist or a youth counselor. I have no training in gymnastics. I have played a bit of football, basketball and baseball and have been both a little league coach and a little grizzly coach. This issue goes much much deeper than immediate and then forgotten outrage. This goes to the very heart of what defines our compassion and respect for each other!

To suggest that one endeavor is not as popular as another and use that as a rationale as to why society acts differently misses the point completely. The fact is that whether we are talking about Nasser, Sandusky, Cosby or Weinstein it gets back to the fact that in a hierarchy those in a position of power too often utilize that power to victimize those below.

In my mind, the question is not "Where is the Outrage?", but rather what can we do both individually and collectively to minimize and ultimately eliminate these atrocities from ever happening again?

I don't have an answer to that question.

 

[argh!]

Oh boy....following this thread closely. Just published a book about my daughter being sexually abused by a trusted person and all of the dynamics involved. I recently spoke at a sexual abuse conference with Matt Sandusky (adopted son and victim of Jerry). Matt and I are collaborating efforts to educate about this issue. Zen is on to something, I think. It’s possible that it’s much more repugnant and offensive to imagine boys being raped by a man vs girls. Idk. But, I think Penn State having been a football powerhouse is part of the drastic downfall. Same mindset that caused our local community to virtually ignore criminal behavior of Griz players under Stitt but spotlight them under Hauck while we were a dominant force. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

you really think the community ignored criminal behavior when stitt was hc? sorry but that is bs. griz players were still held to a higher standard.

 

[GGNez]

Oh boy....following this thread closely. Just published a book about my daughter being sexually abused by a trusted person and all of the dynamics involved. I recently spoke at a sexual abuse conference with Matt Sandusky (adopted son and victim of Jerry). Matt and I are collaborating efforts to educate about this issue. Zen is on to something, I think. It’s possible that it’s much more repugnant and offensive to imagine boys being raped by a man vs girls. Idk. But, I think Penn State having been a football powerhouse is part of the drastic downfall. Same mindset that caused our local community to virtually ignore criminal behavior of Griz players under Stitt but spotlight them under Hauck while we were a dominant force. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

you really think the community ignored criminal behavior when stitt was hc? sorry but that is bs. griz players were still held to a higher standard.

"virtually" ignored is what I said. Of course it was publicized but there is a reason that most people who aren't paying close attention believe that there was a much higher incidence of "bad behavior" by players under Hauck; that he "paved the way" for the sexual assault problems later. The general belief out there is that Stitt's players were better behaved. It fits the "win at all costs" narrative that many have attributed to Hauck and his supporters.

 

[PlayerRep]

I personally don't believe one is worse than the other. they are both repulsive and disgusting. unless we're going to start counting victims in thee crazy cases which I don't think is right either.

msu will certainly not go untouched in this mess.

I believe one is worse than the other, because one involves way more victims, went on longer, and had many more people with at least some level of knowledge of the situation. Also, gymnastics thing had people referring people to Nasser and sticking up for him. Not the case with Sandusky.

For example, a mass murder killing 10 people is worse than a shooting killing 2.

Didn't mean to suggest that molesting was necessarily worse in one situation than in the other., except the level of trust in the gymnast situation was much bigger, in my view.

However, I do find it interesting that these 2 situations seem to have been treated differently so far.

Some differences are football v. gymnastics. A big name football school and coach. While I don't know, I assume some of the gymnasts were ncaa gymnasts at Mich. St. If so, where's the NCAA? I thought they were way too involved in Penn St case, by the way. Where's the Michigan attorney general and other legal authorities? No one at Penn St was referring young boys to Sandusky.

I truly can't imagine what these girls, now women, were going through at the time, after the time, and now. Almost unfathomable to me.

I also wonder where the parents were. And legal authorities and anyone else who bought the BS from this guy that this was special therapy?

 

[PlayerRep]

Oh boy....following this thread closely. Just published a book about my daughter being sexually abused by a trusted person and all of the dynamics involved. I recently spoke at a sexual abuse conference with Matt Sandusky (adopted son and victim of Jerry). Matt and I are collaborating efforts to educate about this issue. Zen is on to something, I think. It’s possible that it’s much more repugnant and offensive to imagine boys being raped by a man vs girls. Idk. But, I think Penn State having been a football powerhouse is part of the drastic downfall. Same mindset that caused our local community to virtually ignore criminal behavior of Griz players under Stitt but spotlight them under Hauck while we were a dominant force. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

you really think the community ignored criminal behavior when stitt was hc? sorry but that is bs. griz players were still held to a higher standard.

Do you really think that the Missoulian and others treated the issues under Stitt the way they did under Hauck? How about egriz? Can you find any posts or threads trashing Stitt for the bad behavior of his players?

 

[GGNez]

I have to address the "where were the parents" remark by a few. It's a reasonable question. But, something that the general public doesn't understand about child predators is that they spend a lot of time manipulating and grooming their victims and the adults around them prior to the sexual abuse in over 90% of cases. In every situation with professional athletes, they are left with trusted trainers and coaches. Often, victims are abused by a grandparent or uncle that "would NEVER do such a thing." Look at how the gymnast coach and Jerry Sandusky behaved when they faced their victims. It TORTURED them to hear the words spoken because the compartmentalize that part of themselves and to have it aired publicly is the ultimate worst thing that could happen for them. They become weak, small, crushed, reduced to tears and shame.
So, where were you when someone you trusted babysat your kids? Where were you when your kids slept over at a friend's house? Where were you each time your kid was at baseball practice? Soccer practice? Football practice? Piano lessons? You were at work. You were out with your spouse. You were sleeping. You were doing what adults do.

 

[GGNez]

Also, regarding people being referred to the gymnastics coach but not Jerry Sandusky, Jerry started The Second Mile, a non-profit organization for underprivileged boys. That's where he met Matthew. It became his hunting ground. He was revered as the guy who helped and loved EVERYONE, regardless of status. He spent hours, years mentoring boys who would have otherwise had no chance. They were the perfect prey - no fathers in their lives watching over them, needy for attention, not credible against the word of Sandusky in the event that they ever spoke up. For Matt, the choice became going back to a home where there was little food, no running water and he was physically beaten, or stay with the Sanduskys where everything was great. 90% of the time.....there was just that 10%...

 

[zengriz]

...the only thing worse...
...ants in your pants...
...uncles in your...

... ...

...to lightn' it up a little...

 

[PlayerRep]

Also, regarding people being referred to the gymnastics coach but not Jerry Sandusky, Jerry started The Second Mile, a non-profit organization for underprivileged boys. That's where he met Matthew. It became his hunting ground. He was revered as the guy who helped and loved EVERYONE, regardless of status. He spent hours, years mentoring boys who would have otherwise had no chance. They were the perfect prey - no fathers in their lives watching over them, needy for attention, not credible against the word of Sandusky in the event that they ever spoke up. For Matt, the choice became going back to a home where there was little food, no running water and he was physically beaten, or stay with the Sanduskys where everything was great. 90% of the time.....there was just that 10%...

True but Penn St not referring kids to Sandusky, and Penn St paid and is paying a huge price.

 

[PlayerRep]

I have to address the "where were the parents" remark by a few. It's a reasonable question. But, something that the general public doesn't understand about child predators is that they spend a lot of time manipulating and grooming their victims and the adults around them prior to the sexual abuse in over 90% of cases. In every situation with professional athletes, they are left with trusted trainers and coaches. Often, victims are abused by a grandparent or uncle that "would NEVER do such a thing." Look at how the gymnast coach and Jerry Sandusky behaved when they faced their victims. It TORTURED them to hear the words spoken because the compartmentalize that part of themselves and to have it aired publicly is the ultimate worst thing that could happen for them. They become weak, small, crushed, reduced to tears and shame.
So, where were you when someone you trusted babysat your kids? Where were you when your kids slept over at a friend's house? Where were you each time your kid was at baseball practice? Soccer practice? Football practice? Piano lessons? You were at work. You were out with your spouse. You were sleeping. You were doing what adults do.

True, but I'm talking about the parents who were presumably told by their daughters what Nasser was doing for treatment. I assume at least some were told. In fact, I think I read that. Also, I read that some parents were in the room when their daughters were "treated". Don't know the specifics of those treatments. Not talking about the parents who didn't get any information.

 

[GGNez]

Also, regarding people being referred to the gymnastics coach but not Jerry Sandusky, Jerry started The Second Mile, a non-profit organization for underprivileged boys. That's where he met Matthew. It became his hunting ground. He was revered as the guy who helped and loved EVERYONE, regardless of status. He spent hours, years mentoring boys who would have otherwise had no chance. They were the perfect prey - no fathers in their lives watching over them, needy for attention, not credible against the word of Sandusky in the event that they ever spoke up. For Matt, the choice became going back to a home where there was little food, no running water and he was physically beaten, or stay with the Sanduskys where everything was great. 90% of the time.....there was just that 10%...

True but Penn St not referring kids to Sandusky, and Penn St paid and is paying a huge price.

Right...true. And, I’m not disagreeing with you on this. Just always jumping at opportunities to get information out there about this issue and how it happens; why it’s so common. Even Matthew Sandusky feels that the blame lies solely on Jerry.

 

[GGNez]

I have to address the "where were the parents" remark by a few. It's a reasonable question. But, something that the general public doesn't understand about child predators is that they spend a lot of time manipulating and grooming their victims and the adults around them prior to the sexual abuse in over 90% of cases. In every situation with professional athletes, they are left with trusted trainers and coaches. Often, victims are abused by a grandparent or uncle that "would NEVER do such a thing." Look at how the gymnast coach and Jerry Sandusky behaved when they faced their victims. It TORTURED them to hear the words spoken because the compartmentalize that part of themselves and to have it aired publicly is the ultimate worst thing that could happen for them. They become weak, small, crushed, reduced to tears and shame.
So, where were you when someone you trusted babysat your kids? Where were you when your kids slept over at a friend's house? Where were you each time your kid was at baseball practice? Soccer practice? Football practice? Piano lessons? You were at work. You were out with your spouse. You were sleeping. You were doing what adults do.

True, but I'm talking about the parents who were presumably told by their daughters what Nasser was doing for treatment. I assume at least some were told. In fact, I think I read that. Also, I read that some parents were in the room when their daughters were "treated". Don't know the specifics of those treatments. Not talking about the parents who didn't get any information.

I wouldn’t be so quick to presume parents were told. These girls received very positive feedback most of their lives for being good at gymnastics. They were also likely told how lucky they were to have such a great coach. Surely no abuse occurred when parents were in the room. A very common part of the grooming process for predators is to touch children in a non-sexual way in front of parents (hugging, kissing, tickling from family member predators, for example). Kids get the message that if parents see that and don’t complain, that parents accept physical contact between victims and perpetrators. By the time it turns sexual, kids feel they’ve participated in allowing it to get to that point. These girls had careers and futures at stake, parents who were so proud of their gymnastics accomplishments and a deep-rooted belief that they were partly to blame for the abuse.

 

[PlayerRep]

Anyone interested in the subject should look at the video of the Aly Raisman statement in court today. Very powerful. She says that if even one adult had paid attention to what some of the gymnasts were saying, much of this could have been avoided. Said it is known that it went on for at least 30 years. Said some of the gymnast and other authorities, talked to the gymnasts who were complaining, to convince that they were wrong and Nasser was right.

 

[PlayerRep]

This is why I believe the Nasser scandal is much bigger than Penn St/Sandusky. Note the reference to parents being told. Women from other sports at Mich St. were also involved. Softball for sure.

"Over the years, some of Nassar's alleged victims say they were telling parents, coaches, counselors, MSU athletic trainers - even police -- that, without consent or explanation, Nassar was digitally penetrating them in the vagina and anus during medical treatments for back, hip and other injuries."

"Also engulfed in the controversy are MSU, where Nassar was a faculty member and practitioner at MSU's sports-medicine clinic from 1997 until he was fired last September; USA Gymnastics, the sport's national governing body, where Nassar started as an athletic trainer in 1986 and served as chief medical coordinator and U.S. team doctor from 1996 to 2015, and Twistars, a high-profile USA Gymnastics training facility in the Lansing area, which referred athletes to Nassar.

All three organizations are named as co-defendants in some of the lawsuits. MSU, the only entity to employ Nassar, denied the university had knowledge of any complaints prior to 2014 and said it had not protected Nassar, according to MSU spokesman Jason Cody."

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/page/msu_doctor_alleged_sexual_assault.html

Note the 100's of times for one woman. The number of being coming forward is much larger than 80 now.

"In the coming months, more than 80 girls and women would accuse Nassar of sexually abusing them — including Lemke, who estimates she was molested hundreds of times during three years of treatment and is suing the osteopathic physician and the university."

 

[GGNez]

This is why I believe the Nasser scandal is much bigger than Penn St/Sandusky. Note the reference to parents being told. Women from other sports at Mich St. were also involved. Softball for sure.

"Over the years, some of Nassar's alleged victims say they were telling parents, coaches, counselors, MSU athletic trainers - even police -- that, without consent or explanation, Nassar was digitally penetrating them in the vagina and anus during medical treatments for back, hip and other injuries."

"Also engulfed in the controversy are MSU, where Nassar was a faculty member and practitioner at MSU's sports-medicine clinic from 1997 until he was fired last September; USA Gymnastics, the sport's national governing body, where Nassar started as an athletic trainer in 1986 and served as chief medical coordinator and U.S. team doctor from 1996 to 2015, and Twistars, a high-profile USA Gymnastics training facility in the Lansing area, which referred athletes to Nassar.

All three organizations are named as co-defendants in some of the lawsuits. MSU, the only entity to employ Nassar, denied the university had knowledge of any complaints prior to 2014 and said it had not protected Nassar, according to MSU spokesman Jason Cody."

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/page/msu_doctor_alleged_sexual_assault.html

Note the 100's of times for one woman. The number of being coming forward is much larger than 80 now.

"In the coming months, more than 80 girls and women would accuse Nassar of sexually abusing them — including Lemke, who estimates she was molested hundreds of times during three years of treatment and is suing the osteopathic physician and the university."

Thanks for the info. This is so gross! I do expect that this is far from over. It took time before the Freeh report came out, proving that Paterno was told about Sandusky. Mike McQueary actually walked into the showers at Penn State and saw Sandusky raping a boy. He told Paterno shortly after. However, I think that there are levels of denial and cognitive dissonance in almost all cases of child sexual assault. Perpetrators are often seen as trustworthy, charismatic, intelligent, many are married with families. These are child predators: "good" people who most believe would never harm a child. That's why 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually assaulted before turning 18. Meanwhile, we teach our kids to be wary of strangers but obey the trusted adults in their lives. Sandusky is the one to blame for manipulating everyone around him. However, Paterno WAS told. Jerry was able to convince him that things were misconstrued. One of the mothers of a victim of Jerry was told by her son that Jerry was a "weirdo" and he didn't like him. That mom was so sure of her belief (and the belief of other adults) that Jerry was a decent man, she was unable to fathom that her son's words were a hint about sexual abuse. These complex factors are present in most cases. They are the reason that people like me, who were fooled by a master manipulator, continuously speak about it.
If we can hold on to the belief that we would never be fooled by a child rapist, we can feel safe. So, when we learn that we WERE, it is very difficult to comprehend.

All of that said, I'm not suggesting that there are adults in this Nasser case who swept it under the rug. It appears to be the case. It's sick and it happens often as well.

 

[CFallsGriz]

...america considers women second class citizens...
...that's the chasm where the outrage gets lost...
...god help the movement working for change...

... ...

You do not speak for America and certainly not for me. They come first in my world. You continue with your head up your arse though.

Zen, my ass.


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