Winning and Attendance

[Griz til I die]

What do you think it would take to get a STEM program and some degrees at UM? Approval from the BOR?

 

[AZGrizFan]

These two are so related and probably play a bigger part on UM's enrollment than people realize (Looking at you Engrstom!). Also known as the "Flutie effect." Interesting article today about Lane Kiffin, one part stated,

"Kiffin's impact has transcended football. Kelly told ESPN earlier this month that FAU's out-of-state applications for the 2018 fall semester were up 35 percent."

Another classic example of this is Gonzaga. Freshman enrollment at Gonzaga was 569 as of 1998. In 1999 (after Zags went to Elite 8) it was 701 and up to 979 in 2001 (65 percent increase).

Of course, many applicants could care less about sports, but there is still a big chunk that do, and it's a lot more fun when you've got a good sports team.

Ironically, those protesting professors who are having their funding cut may actually benefit from Hauck's return...

I 100% agree with this, and I’ll give you an example. I go to UM right now, and I graduated from Butte Central in 2016. A lot of my friends growing up we’re Griz fans. A couple of the girls in my class got a picture with Selle when he was still playing, then one day they just decided out of the blue they were going to MSU. When I asked her why she was going to MSU after growing up
A Griz fan, she didn’t really have a reason, she just said that MSU is sweet and cooler than UM. When I asked her why it’s cooler than UM, she just said it was sweet. That actually kinda pissed me off. The majority of my class went to MSU. A couple of them transferred home to Tech, and we actually had a couple transfer to UM, but MSU still has more kids from our class. This is right when our downfall in football started, and I think the minute we make a deep playoff run, people will start coming around.

You're class of '16? Our downfall started before you were in high school.

 

[Stop_HammerTime69]

Winning doesn't do anything for attendance at a university...

https://www.ndsu.edu/data/enrollment/annual/

Gonna throw something out there that might add more to the picture. North Dakota's education system is currently involved in massive cuts, despite the big oil boom overlapping on the timeline. The University of North Dakota dealt with massive cuts, ending numerous programs and shrinking the overall graduate school by over a quarter, on top of cutting quite a few sports, not the least of which was women's hockey, and hockey is a big fuckin' deal there, even the women. My mom, a professor there, ended up leaving that school after the last academic year.

NDSU on the other hand didn't have to deal with any of that. Though it might not look like it, they experienced the "Flutie effect" at the right time to stay stable, not necessarily grow. It wasn't involved in massive cuts, a 30% across the board, the way their in-state counterpart was.

 

[Retiredram1]

As a retired educator, I believe that MANY of those who chose Bozeman believe they are going to be engineers and when they reach a saturation point in the career field (many believe that time is here) and grads cannot get those high paying jobs, you may see a change.

 

[signedbewildered]

Bobby is the reason (game) attendance went down and enrollment crashed. If you don't believe me just ask the educators that know these things....

"Hauck's previous tenure contributed to the climate that resulted in the Department of Justice and the Department of Education investigations, which have had horrible consequences for UM in terms of enrollment and reputation." ~ (The 29 faculty concerned about current state of University)

"Bobby Hauck, more than any other person, was responsible for the culture of impunity with respect to sexual harassment and assault by athletes that led to a federal investigation, the firing of multiple high level university employees, the precipitous decline in enrollment and the widespread perception that the university was unsafe for women." ~ Patrick Burke (UM Teacher Honors College, Philosophy dept and Ecological Restoration)

......

Let's see....chicken or egg? Enrollment/Attendance up, Hauck here. Hauck leaves, enrollment/attendance drops. (But it's Hauck's fault. Are you following this?)

My theory is winning record, attendance and enrollment will eventually climb now that Hauck is back but the fans, boosters and especially media should do what they can to keep him around this time because we KNOW what happens when he leaves.

Right?

 

[GrizLA]

The University of South Carolina had a large increases in out of state and local students and they polled the students, both men and women, and many chose USC because of the huge success both teams had in the NCAA tourney. Clemson is drawing larger from South Carolina students, as well.

 

[GGNez]

Bobby is the reason (game) attendance went down and enrollment crashed. If you don't believe me just ask the educators that know these things....

"Hauck's previous tenure contributed to the climate that resulted in the Department of Justice and the Department of Education investigations, which have had horrible consequences for UM in terms of enrollment and reputation." ~ (The 29 faculty concerned about current state of University)

"Bobby Hauck, more than any other person, was responsible for the culture of impunity with respect to sexual harassment and assault by athletes that led to a federal investigation, the firing of multiple high level university employees, the precipitous decline in enrollment and the widespread perception that the university was unsafe for women." ~ Patrick Burke (UM Teacher Honors College, Philosophy dept and Ecological Restoration)

......

Let's see....chicken or egg? Enrollment/Attendance up, Hauck here. Hauck leaves, enrollment/attendance drops. (But it's Hauck's fault. Are you following this?)

My theory is winning record, attendance and enrollment will eventually climb now that Hauck is back but the fans, boosters and especially media should do what they can to keep him around this time because we KNOW what happens when he leaves.

Right?

And...mind you, enrollment actually continued going up for 2 years after he left.

 

[signedbewildered]

Bobby is the reason (game) attendance went down and enrollment crashed. If you don't believe me just ask the educators that know these things....

"Hauck's previous tenure contributed to the climate that resulted in the Department of Justice and the Department of Education investigations, which have had horrible consequences for UM in terms of enrollment and reputation." ~ (The 29 faculty concerned about current state of University)

"Bobby Hauck, more than any other person, was responsible for the culture of impunity with respect to sexual harassment and assault by athletes that led to a federal investigation, the firing of multiple high level university employees, the precipitous decline in enrollment and the widespread perception that the university was unsafe for women." ~ Patrick Burke (UM Teacher Honors College, Philosophy dept and Ecological Restoration)

......

Let's see....chicken or egg? Enrollment/Attendance up, Hauck here. Hauck leaves, enrollment/attendance drops. (But it's Hauck's fault. Are you following this?)

My theory is winning record, attendance and enrollment will eventually climb now that Hauck is back but the fans, boosters and especially media should do what they can to keep him around this time because we KNOW what happens when he leaves.

Right?

And...mind you, enrollment actually continued going up for 2 years after he left.

Still Bobby's fault GG. Pay attention. 29 faculty members couldn't be wrong....unless they went to MSU, then I could cut them some slack.

Oh wait....never mind.

 

[signedbewildered]

"....My theory is winning record, attendance and enrollment will eventually climb now that Hauck is back...."

With all due respect I should have phrased this "...now that Hauck is back and Bodner has replaced Engstrom, 'cause that's a huge change for the positive.

 

[AZDoc]

Winning doesn't do anything for attendance at a university...

https://www.ndsu.edu/data/enrollment/annual/

Gonna throw something out there that might add more to the picture. North Dakota's education system is currently involved in massive cuts, despite the big oil boom overlapping on the timeline. The University of North Dakota dealt with massive cuts, ending numerous programs and shrinking the overall graduate school by over a quarter, on top of cutting quite a few sports, not the least of which was women's hockey, and hockey is a big f***[*]' deal there, even the women. My mom, a professor there, ended up leaving that school after the last academic year.

NDSU on the other hand didn't have to deal with any of that. Though it might not look like it, they experienced the "Flutie effect" at the right time to stay stable, not necessarily grow. It wasn't involved in massive cuts, a 30% across the board, the way their in-state counterpart was.

I get ya. I’m a believer in success increases attendance. I think NDSU has slow increases over time, likely frim what you brought up. Says a lot about a program.

 

[spsyk]

then how does msu explain their enrollment success? certainly not because of "winning" football teams and certainly not because of um's perceived campus issues.

It is called the STEM effect.

so its not football......... what is um doing to try to catch this stem effect?

By offering a degree in Harry Potter Theory, will get millennial’s to get into student load debt.

 

[Grizzoola]

1: Suppose Bobby is 2-2 or even 1-3 the 1st four games. I can't remember how he started in his 1st year, back then. Despite the high expectations, Bobby may not make the playoffs. How will that sit?

2: UM could compete w/ MSU in engineering & architecture with pre-engineering and pre-architectural 2-yr transfer programs to Tech & MSU, like it has w/ pre-med & pre-dental. If UM has those programs, I'm unaware of them. If it does, it should promote them on TV ads in Griz games.

 

[MTGRZ]

I think UM needs an OT degree-both undergrad and graduate. Maybe even a PA school. I'm not sure Missoula can handle a full blown med school, but advanced medical degrees would be a HUGE plus for UM. We already have PT, pharm, ST, and very good pre-med degrees.

 

[behappp]

then how does msu explain their enrollment success? certainly not because of "winning" football teams and certainly not because of um's perceived campus issues.

It is called the STEM effect.

so its not football......... what is um doing to try to catch this stem effect?

By offering a degree in Harry Potter Theory, will get millennial’s to get into student load debt.

My daughter got a major in poli sci and a drama minor and is now making more $ than I could ever dream of writing code in silicon valley. It's a brave new world old man.

 

[MTGRZ]

It is called the STEM effect.

so its not football......... what is um doing to try to catch this stem effect?

By offering a degree in Harry Potter Theory, will get millennial’s to get into student load debt.

My daughter got a major in poli sci and a drama minor and is now making more $ than I could ever dream of writing code in silicon valley. It's a brave new world old man.

From what I understand, employers are looking for well-rounded people that bring different experiences and views. A pool of applicants with the same background does not necessarily breed innovation. Medical schools have been admitting applicants with undergrad degrees other than pre-med (as long as the pre-req courses are completed) for a while now because those applicant's bring different experiences/point of views etc. My point is, a university like UM still offers great degrees that employers/grad schools value.

 

[SoldierGriz]

As a retired educator, I believe that MANY of those who chose Bozeman believe they are going to be engineers and when they reach a saturation point in the career field (many believe that time is here) and grads cannot get those high paying jobs, you may see a change.

engineers will dominate the job market earnings scales for years and years...

 

[hokeyfine]

there are many factors that effect attendance. Academics is the biggest. One thing to watch at um is the proposals for program cuts, consolidation, and expansion. As of right now there is no plan in place to strengthen the good programs. There is no plan or idea the strengthen stem programs. And to think that the liberal art portion of the university isn't important is a mistake. as was stated earlier, med schools are looking more and more at non pre-med people and at the recent job fair in bozeman there are plenty of employers looking for liberal arts graduates.
When um starts to take academics seriously then attendance will increase. a winning football record will not save the university.

 

[BozAngelesGriz]

It is called the STEM effect.

so its not football......... what is um doing to try to catch this stem effect?

By offering a degree in Harry Potter Theory, will get millennial’s to get into student load debt.

My daughter got a major in poli sci and a drama minor and is now making more $ than I could ever dream of writing code in silicon valley. It's a brave new world old man.

One of my buddies at UM got a degree in Creative Writing and now teaches coding in Seattle. Does pretty well you might say. I know a lot of MSU grads, some who even have the prestigious engineering degrees, who are now ski/raft bums making less than 20k a year. In fact most of the people that I graduated from UM with got liberal arts degrees and are pretty in the business world.

 

[IdaGriz01]

In this region, Boise State is still a kind of “poster child” to connect football success with attendance and with other school success. Here’s what their president (Bob Kustra) said in an interview announcing his retirement next June. (Idaho Statesman is the big Boise newspaper. My bold.)

Sports is "an enormous investment" for Boise State University, but one that has paid off for the school as a whole, said BSU President Bob Kustra. "That Fiesta Bowl of 2007 really gave us a set of strategies on how we could take the rest of the university on the national stage that football took us in that year."
…
Kustra experienced dazzling high points, notably the Broncos’ 2007 Fiesta Bowl win over Oklahoma, the favored team.
“I was gobsmacked,” said Kustra.
He didn’t have a sense of what that win would mean for the university — helping catapult it into an era of growth and national recognition — until he came in to work the next morning and found 300 emails from fans and friends across the county.
…

So Kustra absolutely believed football success meant more than just football success.

But as for the thread title, let’s talk attendance: According to stats in another Idaho Statesman article, season ticket sales went from 12,678 in 2002 (12-1 record, won bowl ) to 14,199 in 2003 … up 12%. They won their 2003 bowl game and season ticket sales increased again to 17,537 for 2004 (another 24%). With their continuing success, season tickets sales increased steadily and peaked at 24,109 in 2012. I will also point out that they’ve had declines since. That’s partly attributed to the lesser results since Chris Petersen left and (local sport pundits say) dislike of so many late-starting games. That latter point makes sense because a lot of those started at 7:00 pm to make the TV folks happy.

As to Kustra’s other point. With football success as a springboard, Kustra increased student enrollment at Boise State from 18,456 in 2004 (when football was starting to attract attention) to 22,252 in 2017. (They’re now claiming over 24 thousand, but those numbers are not official.) That's an increase of over 20% over a period when many schools (like UM) are finding it hard to maintain enrollment, much less grow it.

And for those of you who tend to sneer at Boise's academic reputation …. I suggest you look carefully over your shoulders. Kustra pushed BSU heavily into STEM research. In the process, he basically doubled the school’s grant money, along with roughly doubling the number of graduate students. The latest fiscal year number was over $50 million (latest number for UM was $87 million.) And they’re on a strong upward trend. I skimmed their news items and found announcements for over $18 million in new grants just in October and November. These are not chump change either ($1.5 million for biomedical research, etc.) and they’re coming from NSF, NIH, NASA, DOE and some other heavy hitters.

So a strong athletic program can have a huge positive impact … with the right leader to make things happen. I’m really impressed with the credentials of the new UM president, so I think the pieces could be in place for Montana to take off .. both in football and in other ways.

FYI: We have no connection with BSU, except for knowing many of the STEM faculty through the Idaho Academy of Science. The credentials of some of their hires in the last 4-5 years are "scary good" and their work is attracting more and more grant money, big awards and more patents than you can shake a stick at. (It doesn't hurt that they can partner with the likes of Micron and Hewlett-Packard.)

 

[GrizMusician]

As a retired educator, I believe that MANY of those who chose Bozeman believe they are going to be engineers and when they reach a saturation point in the career field (many believe that time is here) and grads cannot get those high paying jobs, you may see a change.

I agree 100%. As a graduate who evaluated educational opportunities at Montana Tech and MSU after spending time at UM... UM has a long way to go as far as offering “practical” degrees that will pay the bills.

My wife and I always joke that my degree from Montana Tech “pays the bills,” while my education at UM was... fun and expensive.


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