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Will the Griz play a 4-3-4 defense?

Once again, my point of view is simple...... if the 3-3-5 is such a great BASE DEFENSE, why don't ANY of the top FBS teams, or a single NFL team, use this defense? This defense was designed to stop the spread offenses which were in-vogue for 20 years or so. But how many teams running the spread win national championships? There is a reason why NDSU uses the 4-3 defense, and it looks like they have won a few national championships, correct?
When the Griz were competing (and winning) national championships, we did NOT run the 3-3-5 base defense. That is all I need to know!
 
GrizProtocol said:
HelenaHandBasket said:
It is less about the 3-3-5 scheme and more about maintaining gap integrity.
Serious question

How do you maintain gap integrity when you are laying flat on your back because the guy in front of you has 60+lbs on you?

No need to answer it will just be ridiculous anyway. We already know you're clueless

BINGO!
 
HelenaHandBasket said:
GrizProtocol said:
Serious question

How do you maintain gap integrity when you are laying flat on your back because the guy in front of you has 60+lbs on you?

No need to answer it will just be ridiculous anyway. We already know you're clueless



Not sure it matters whether it is 3 guys or 4 guys laying flat on their backs...I guess a better chance for the back to trip, so maybe it would make sense.

So, if our players are being owned at the LOS, why don't we just give up and not even play the game?
 
RoseyMustGo said:
Once again, my point of view is simple...... if the 3-3-5 is such a great BASE DEFENSE, why don't ANY of the top FBS teams, or a single NFL team, use this defense? This defense was designed to stop the spread offenses which were in-vogue for 20 years or so. But how many teams running the spread win national championships? There is a reason why NDSU uses the 4-3 defense, and it looks like they have won a few national championships, correct?
When the Griz were competing (and winning) national championships, we did NOT run the 3-3-5 base defense. That is all I need to know!
Then why is our defense better than over 100 FCS teams that run a more traditional base? How did this defense play four top 20 FCS rushing teams and keep all of them but one under their average? Weber State plays a 4-3 defense, but still gave up 350 yards to the cats on the ground. How?

I'm definitely not a fan of the 3-3-5, but you guys are being a little ridiculous, looking for easy answers to issues that aren't that easy (because you don't know what you're talking about). If we switched to the 4-3 this weekend for the game against NDSU, they would absolutely crush us, because we don't have the personnel, nor have we been practicing it at all this season.
 
I thought everyone agreed in a thread about a year ago that you guys needed to switch to the dreaded 3-4-5 defense. Not sure it would mattered in Bozeman this year.
 
Hurdlingriz said:
I thought TCU used this defense? UCF, Cincinnati, and obviously SDSU. Not the only ones though
I’m not sure if TCU does anymore, but Syracuse, Iowa State and Mississippi State all use it, as well.
 
In my twenty years of coaching high school football, there ISN'T a defense that by alignment and personnel usage that has an answer for everything that an offense does. You fill in the gaps by the scheme you employ. Even then, when you marry your scheme, what the offense is running and the individual play calls and you still don't have an answer sometimes.

When a team runs an overload either by formation, by personnel alignment or by play call, that is as much coach preparation and player identification as it is anything. One year, we had a tie breaker playoff in Southern Idaho on a Tuesday night to determine who got into the playoffs for the coming year. We faced a wing t team and in the two practices the only play they saw was a power/buck sweep overload and we repped it and repped it some more. We had the slide adjustment, a blitz into the pull, and when then the playoff happened (1st and 10 from the 20 going in) our kids froze in the moment. We couldn't make the adjustment and they got 7 players plus ball carrier to our 5 and TD. We had two small adjustments, in our 4-2, to make it free and easy for the kids to make the play, and it just didn't happen. Turns out those two small adjustments were too big for the kids in the moment, and those failures always fall on coaches.

As I said in the prior post, whether you are running a 40 front or 30 front with 5 line backers, the rules are essentially the same on how to beat power and overload. Coached against Tim Raccicot in his last years at Class in Frenchtown and we ran a 5-4 for much of the game. Didn't matter. Players are going to have to get cross face on the DL, feel double teams, and backers are going to have to scrape through a mountain of bodies to find the football that could be in the hands of two or three different personnel.

Having run power, overload and wing-t philosophies over the years, as well as spread zone schemes, you are taught to use what the defense is trying to do against them. Montana State used overload, and Montana's desire to remain a balanced in the middle of the field, to get more personnel to the POC. When Montana adjusted by running over fronts and overhang Safeties in the box, MSU stayed in the same formation and ran weak side zone, inside cut back zone, and got tons of first defenders to miss. Montana loves flow to the football and when teams like MSU who run inside and stretch zone as good as any team I've seen in recent years, you have to make a conscious choice. Flow really hard to the OS shoulder of the RB/QB or play straight up. Montana couldn't get flow into the gaps which is the calling card of the defense, and then they played straight up 30 and 40 techniques and got hammered some more.
MSU had a perfect play calling day, Montana didn't and on top of that our defense didn't execute. That goes on coaches obviously, but had Montana run out in a classic 4-3 it might have worked is the type of simiplistic and not realistic type of adjustment that coaches at any level are going to make if they know the odds of marrying personnel and scheme together for execution is pretty low. You coach to your strengths and in the MSU game you have to tip your hat to the playcalling and execution of MSU. They made Montana look slow and pedestrian on defense that day, and a 60 front likely wasn't going to change that.

Could have there been different adjustments? Absolutely, but just simply lining up in a 40 front wouldn't have been the silver bullet that some are asking for. Your personnel still has to be better at both levels, have to play the type of game that makes those adjustments worthwhile. Does your adjustment take away from a clear strength of the team? Does it change reads and assignments? Change eye level? What personnel do you have to remove or change? Just plopping another DE and playing an under front isn't going to make the offense coordinator go "Oh F@#$" and toss out the game plan. They incidentally have 8,500 hundred ways to block inside and stretch zone, including seeing 40 front. So you can strawman this by saying that no one runs a 3-3-5 anywhere at the FBS or Pro-Level else as your major argument, but aside from the interior 3-3 stack, what they do outside of it, with the other 5 guys is pretty damn standard at every level of football. Heck what they do with Patrick O'Connell as a flex/rush backer isn't weird, there are literal dozens of college programs at the highest levels that use it and several NFL teams. That is a 3-4 technique and has been around for 50 years at least.
 
uofmman1122 said:
Hurdlingriz said:
I thought TCU used this defense? UCF, Cincinnati, and obviously SDSU. Not the only ones though
I’m not sure if TCU does anymore, but Syracuse, Iowa State and Mississippi State all use it, as well.

Yeah, let's emulate those teams, all of which routinely finish in the middle of their conference with 0.500 W/L records. Exception is TCU, but they don't use the 3-3-5. What could go wrong? TCU uses a 4-2-5 defense. The 4 D-linemen providing much better gap control against the running game.

https://www.xsosfootball.com/understanding-tcus-4-2-5-defense/
 
Angle of pursuit was a huge issue against msu, banana curved half the time like they were misreading Mellott's speed.
I think this team can win, with this defense
 
RoseyMustGo said:
uofmman1122 said:
I’m not sure if TCU does anymore, but Syracuse, Iowa State and Mississippi State all use it, as well.

Yeah, let's emulate those teams, all of which routinely finish in the middle of their conference with 0.500 W/L records. Exception is TCU, but they don't use the 3-3-5. What could go wrong? TCU uses a 4-2-5 defense. The 4 D-linemen providing much better gap control against the running game.

https://www.xsosfootball.com/understanding-tcus-4-2-5-defense/
Iowa State won the Big 12 with this defense in 2020, SDSU routinely has won the Mountain West with it, Mississippi State is currently in the top 25, Cincinnati and UCF are 9-3 and Cinci went to the CFP with this defense last year.

TCU's sub package was literally just the 3-3-5, which they ran a lot against the spread teams in their conference.

You're out of your depth here.

inb4 "well, alabama and ndsu don't run it, so...checkmate" :lol:
 
Hurdlingriz said:
Angle of pursuit was a huge issue against msu, banana curved half the time like they were misreading Mellott's speed.
I think this team can win, with this defense

Good point. I enjoy discussing football with posters who actually can provide knowledgeable points to the discussion. We may not agree, but it is much better than the constant pissing contest posts to Bobcat fans.
 
uofmman1122 said:
RoseyMustGo said:
Yeah, let's emulate those teams, all of which routinely finish in the middle of their conference with 0.500 W/L records. Exception is TCU, but they don't use the 3-3-5. What could go wrong? TCU uses a 4-2-5 defense. The 4 D-linemen providing much better gap control against the running game.

https://www.xsosfootball.com/understanding-tcus-4-2-5-defense/
Iowa State won the Big 12 with this defense in 2020, SDSU routinely has won the Mountain West with it, Mississippi State is currently in the top 25, Cincinnati and UCF are 9-3 and Cinci went to the CFP with this defense last year.

You're out of your depth here.

inb4 "well, alabama and ndsu don't run it, so...checkmate" :lol:


When a team wins the Big Ten or SEC using the 3-3-5, then you might have a point. Otherwise, I think you are the one treading water here.
 
RoseyMustGo said:
uofmman1122 said:
Iowa State won the Big 12 with this defense in 2020, SDSU routinely has won the Mountain West with it, Mississippi State is currently in the top 25, Cincinnati and UCF are 9-3 and Cinci went to the CFP with this defense last year.

You're out of your depth here.

inb4 "well, alabama and ndsu don't run it, so...checkmate" :lol:


When a team wins the Big Ten or SEC using the 3-3-5, then you might have a point. Otherwise, I think you are the one treading water here.
Love how it was "all of these schools finish .500" and now it's this. :lol:

moving-goalpost.gif
 
RoseyMustGo said:
HelenaHandBasket said:
Not sure it matters whether it is 3 guys or 4 guys laying flat on their backs...I guess a better chance for the back to trip, so maybe it would make sense.

So, if our players are being owned at the LOS, why don't we just give up and not even play the game?

My post was sarcasm.
 
Hurdlingriz said:
Angle of pursuit was a huge issue against msu, banana curved half the time like they were misreading Mellott's speed.
I think this team can win, with this defense

Angles of pursuit are usually the result of poor initial alignment and/or lack of discipline. Mellot confirmed during his postgame interview the lack of gap discipline by the Griz defense.
 
Grizfan-24 said:
In my twenty years of coaching high school football, there ISN'T a defense that by alignment and personnel usage that has an answer for everything that an offense does. You fill in the gaps by the scheme you employ. Even then, when you marry your scheme, what the offense is running and the individual play calls and you still don't have an answer sometimes.

When a team runs an overload either by formation, by personnel alignment or by play call, that is as much coach preparation and player identification as it is anything. One year, we had a tie breaker playoff in Southern Idaho on a Tuesday night to determine who got into the playoffs for the coming year. We faced a wing t team and in the two practices the only play they saw was a power/buck sweep overload and we repped it and repped it some more. We had the slide adjustment, a blitz into the pull, and when then the playoff happened (1st and 10 from the 20 going in) our kids froze in the moment. We couldn't make the adjustment and they got 7 players plus ball carrier to our 5 and TD. We had two small adjustments, in our 4-2, to make it free and easy for the kids to make the play, and it just didn't happen. Turns out those two small adjustments were too big for the kids in the moment, and those failures always fall on coaches.

As I said in the prior post, whether you are running a 40 front or 30 front with 5 line backers, the rules are essentially the same on how to beat power and overload. Coached against Tim Raccicot in his last years at Class in Frenchtown and we ran a 5-4 for much of the game. Didn't matter. Players are going to have to get cross face on the DL, feel double teams, and backers are going to have to scrape through a mountain of bodies to find the football that could be in the hands of two or three different personnel.

Having run power, overload and wing-t philosophies over the years, as well as spread zone schemes, you are taught to use what the defense is trying to do against them. Montana State used overload, and Montana's desire to remain a balanced in the middle of the field, to get more personnel to the POC. When Montana adjusted by running over fronts and overhang Safeties in the box, MSU stayed in the same formation and ran weak side zone, inside cut back zone, and got tons of first defenders to miss. Montana loves flow to the football and when teams like MSU who run inside and stretch zone as good as any team I've seen in recent years, you have to make a conscious choice. Flow really hard to the OS shoulder of the RB/QB or play straight up. Montana couldn't get flow into the gaps which is the calling card of the defense, and then they played straight up 30 and 40 techniques and got hammered some more.
MSU had a perfect play calling day, Montana didn't and on top of that our defense didn't execute. That goes on coaches obviously, but had Montana run out in a classic 4-3 it might have worked is the type of simiplistic and not realistic type of adjustment that coaches at any level are going to make if they know the odds of marrying personnel and scheme together for execution is pretty low. You coach to your strengths and in the MSU game you have to tip your hat to the playcalling and execution of MSU. They made Montana look slow and pedestrian on defense that day, and a 60 front likely wasn't going to change that.

Could have there been different adjustments? Absolutely, but just simply lining up in a 40 front wouldn't have been the silver bullet that some are asking for. Your personnel still has to be better at both levels, have to play the type of game that makes those adjustments worthwhile. Does your adjustment take away from a clear strength of the team? Does it change reads and assignments? Change eye level? What personnel do you have to remove or change? Just plopping another DE and playing an under front isn't going to make the offense coordinator go "Oh F@#$" and toss out the game plan. They incidentally have 8,500 hundred ways to block inside and stretch zone, including seeing 40 front. So you can strawman this by saying that no one runs a 3-3-5 anywhere at the FBS or Pro-Level else as your major argument, but aside from the interior 3-3 stack, what they do outside of it, with the other 5 guys is pretty damn standard at every level of football. Heck what they do with Patrick O'Connell as a flex/rush backer isn't weird, there are literal dozens of college programs at the highest levels that use it and several NFL teams. That is a 3-4 technique and has been around for 50 years at least.

Lining up in something different would have absolutely impacted the game. The Cats had their first five series scripted against our defense. Not really their first five but because they scored so quickly it took them awhile to get through their list. I encourage everyone to watch the first five series Griz/Cat game and see how they set one play up after another because they guessed correctly that we wouldn't adjust.
 
Hurdlingriz said:
I thought TCU used this defense? UCF, Cincinnati, and obviously SDSU. Not the only ones though

Kansas State uses it...they also have All Conference and All American d-linemen. They have a very good defense.

The Griz have used it well for the most part, but may have to upgrade some personnel to use it to its full potential.
 
uofmman1122 said:
HelenaHandBasket said:
I guess it is just impossible to maintain gap integrity unless you play a 4-3 or 3-4. Glad the Griz switched out of the 3-3-5 in the second half against SEMO.
Obviously the only way to fix 3 DL making the wrong reads and keys is having 4 DL making the wrong reads and keys.

Hahaha, now that's the sort of high football IQ insight I come here for! :lol: :lol:
 
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