Who are UM's peers?

[CDAGRIZ]

UM's athletic budget is way below most MWC schools, with one exception (Utah St). Two schools have budgets just over $27 million. The next lowest are $33 million and $36 million. The other 6 are over $40 million. That's half of the schools over $40 million. How could UM ever double its athletic budget?

UM's "subsidy" is much lower the most MWC schools and lower than all of the MWC schools:4 $8.6 million. Nevada's is 10.7 and Boise's is 11.8. Fresno 13 and Utah St 14. Then 16, 17, 18 (3), 20 (2). I'll omit AFA.

Where in the world is this multi-million gap in funding going to come from? I agree that UM would likely get an additional $4 million, and maybe even $5 million, of new revenues from being in the MWC. That's real money, but that would not result in UM's athletic budget being high enough to complete effectively in the MWC.

And look at the subsidies of the MWC. I just don't see the Board of Regents or legislature giving UM money to increase the State subsidy, or allowing UM to take that risk. Can you imagine the outcry of the faculty, who are already facing cuts while dealing with declining enrollment, if Engstrom announced that UM was putting more money into athletics?

Here are numbers for athletic department spending and subsidies.

UM - $20.3 million - $8.643 million
Air Force - 41.438 - 30.892
Boise St - 45.680 -11.799
Colo St - 39.944 - 20.029
Fresno - 36.038 - 13.101
Hawaii - 43.066 - 18.005
Nevada - 27.324 - 10.685
N. Mex. - 47.082 - 17.293
San Diego St - 45.063 - 18.503
San Jose - 27.816 - 18.277
UNLV - 44.467 - 19.783
Utah St - 23.307 - 14.180
Wyo. - 32.967 - 16.097

"Total Subsidy: The sum of students fees, direct and indirect institutional support and state money."

The site says the data was updated for 2014.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/05/10/college-athletic-department-revenue-database-methodology/2150123/

Good info. Is the $4-5 million estimate just for football, or department wide? I see MSU ripped over $10 million in subsidies. With that, and another couple million in revs department wide, and UM could be in UNR's range. Not saying it's that easy.

It's my guestimate for additional revenues from being in the MWC. Not just football. Perhaps someone else will do a better analysis/estimate.

I wish I had that ability. I think the MWC revenues might be more department wide, but I'm admittedly basing that on nothing but the direction of the wind.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

I have some ocean front property in Arizona

"My views of Big Blue from AZ are far superior to yours. I have whitewater views and can smell whale turds and dolphin jizz from my patio. You should want to be me."

-Dill

 

[CDAGRIZ]

(Hint: accounting at universities can make numbers look any way they want to).

This is actually a very important point. Just look at UCLA on this list at 29. Revenues equal expenses EXACTLY on $86,426,780. Amazing!

"We're zeroed out, guys. The softball coach opted not to supersize at the Logan, Utah McDonald's. Perfect."

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

 

[PlayerRep]

Why is the focus always about football only?? Think what a move from one of the shittiest DI BB conferences in America to a 3-bid league would do for UM hoops, both men and women. Better athletes. Better RPIs (as if they could get worse than the BSC with 7 teams over 300...), more NCAA bids, better seeds allowing a chance to win a couple games.

And PR, nice numbers. And if you believe them, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. Good deal, for you only.

(Hint: accounting at universities can make numbers look any way they want to).

Yes, I believe the numbers. I had my training in accounting at Stanford Business School. The categories for the numbers are standardized.

"Because the categories are standardized, comparisons between schools are possible as well. The school's president or chancellor reviews the data before it's submitted to the NCAA, which also does a general audit of the data. In an effort to standardize reporting, NCAA staff members have worked with the National Association of College and University Business Officers to formulate definitions for each category."

 

[Paytonlives]

UM's Peers... are there any? Not in Montana anyways... :lol:

 

[UNDfan]

UM's Peers... are there any? Not in Montana anyways... :lol:

Yeah, MSU is so far ahead of UM in research and actual STEM degrees that will get a real job, the UM is in the 2nd tier with Montana Tech and Carroll!

As far as your peer schools, looking up to Idaho, UND, MSU, and NDSU. SDSU, NMSU, and USD are at your level. That would make a good core of an FBS conference. Throw in UC Davis, Cal Poly for higher academics and recruiting and Portland St, EWU, and Sac St for bigger cities and maybe UM can aspire to it. :shock:

 

[EverettGriz]

I have some ocean front property in Arizona

"My views of Big Blue from AZ are far superior to yours. I have whitewater views and can smell whale turds and dolphin jizz from my patio. You should want to be me."

-Dill

Obviously, you were the CEO of 1,593 fortune 500 companies.

 

[EverettGriz]

Why is the focus always about football only?? Think what a move from one of the shittiest DI BB conferences in America to a 3-bid league would do for UM hoops, both men and women. Better athletes. Better RPIs (as if they could get worse than the BSC with 7 teams over 300...), more NCAA bids, better seeds allowing a chance to win a couple games.

And PR, nice numbers. And if you believe them, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. Good deal, for you only.

(Hint: accounting at universities can make numbers look any way they want to).

Yes, I believe the numbers. I had my training in accounting at Stanford Business School. The categories for the numbers are standardized.

"Because the categories are standardized, comparisons between schools are possible as well. The school's president or chancellor reviews the data before it's submitted to the NCAA, which also does a general audit of the data. In an effort to standardize reporting, NCAA staff members have worked with the National Association of College and University Business Officers to formulate definitions for each category."

I've never seen poor Stanford so embarrassed.

C'mon PR. You're not a moron (though you often play one on the board when it serves your agenda). Do you really believe universities don't fudge the numbers when it comes to items like facility rent, summer camp expenses, towel rental, scoreboard assessment fees, turf wear expenditure (a real line item in a Pac12 program's budget that my Firm audited), etc? Shit, programs inflate their expenses at ridiculous levels to show whatever needs to be shown, usually that money isn't being made, all the while $300 million athletic palaces are being built seemingly annually, with no state funding, and no direct donors. But I'll be damned, the athletic department shows a loss. Who woulda thunk it.....

I wish I lived in your world of roses and cornucopia.

 

[bgbigdog]

Are they getting a good deal on towel rental? My place just jacked up their rates and a whale ass like myself usually needs more than one to make it through a session.

Anyone who believes that all athletic programs follow generally accepted accounting principles/practices to the letter is delusional. I went to Stanford for a graduation once so that should qualify me as expert.

Is it me or is football really dragging its ass getting here this year? Hope that's s sign of good things to come.

 

[PlayerRep]

Why is the focus always about football only?? Think what a move from one of the shittiest DI BB conferences in America to a 3-bid league would do for UM hoops, both men and women. Better athletes. Better RPIs (as if they could get worse than the BSC with 7 teams over 300...), more NCAA bids, better seeds allowing a chance to win a couple games.

And PR, nice numbers. And if you believe them, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale. Good deal, for you only.

(Hint: accounting at universities can make numbers look any way they want to).

Yes, I believe the numbers. I had my training in accounting at Stanford Business School. The categories for the numbers are standardized.

"Because the categories are standardized, comparisons between schools are possible as well. The school's president or chancellor reviews the data before it's submitted to the NCAA, which also does a general audit of the data. In an effort to standardize reporting, NCAA staff members have worked with the National Association of College and University Business Officers to formulate definitions for each category."

I've never seen poor Stanford so embarrassed.

C'mon PR. You're not a moron (though you often play one on the board when it serves your agenda). Do you really believe universities don't fudge the numbers when it comes to items like facility rent, summer camp expenses, towel rental, scoreboard assessment fees, turf wear expenditure (a real line item in a Pac12 program's budget that my Firm audited), etc? Shit, programs inflate their expenses at ridiculous levels to show whatever needs to be shown, usually that money isn't being made, all the while $300 million athletic palaces are being built seemingly annually, with no state funding, and no direct donors. But I'll be damned, the athletic department shows a loss. Who woulda thunk it.....

I wish I lived in your world of roses and cornucopia.

Talk about a moron. Do you really think the price of towel rental has any material impact on the numbers? You understand that university financial statements are audited and certified? You realize that state organizations (e.g., legislative audit division) also oversee and review university budgets and financial statements? You realize that providing inaccurate or misleading financial information can be a violation of state law? Do you really think that universities use incorrect and misleading financial statements when they sell bonds to institutions or to the public, to finance university or athletic buildings? That would be a violation of federal and state securities laws? In any event, if, as you say, all universities are doing these things, then the comparative numbers between schools would still be valid.

 

[PlayerRep]

Are they getting a good deal on towel rental? My place just jacked up their rates and a whale ass like myself usually needs more than one to make it through a session.

Anyone who believes that all athletic programs follow generally accepted accounting principles/practices to the letter is delusional. I went to Stanford for a graduation once so that should qualify me as expert.

Is it me or is football really dragging its ass getting here this year? Hope that's s sign of good things to come.

This quote is from an audit of the University of Montana schools, which, of course, includes the athletic departments. Note the reference generally accepted audit principles.

"In our opinion, based on our audit and the report of other auditors, the financial statements referred to above present fairly, in all material respects, the financial position of the business-type activities and the aggregate discretely presented component units of The University of Montana as of June 30, 2012, and 2011, and the respective changes in financial position and, where applicable, cash flows thereof for each of the fiscal years then ended, in conformity with accounting principles generally accepted in the United States of America."

 

[Bisonation]

NDSU/MONTANA would get into that college football playoff financial pie and big dance financial pie and television rights pie via the MWC.....mmmmm pie!!

 

[AZGrizFan]

NDSU/MONTANA would get into that college football playoff financial pie and big dance financial pie and television rights pie via the MWC.....mmmmm pie!!

Try and stay focused.... :lol: :lol:

 

[kemajic]

Talk about a moron. Do you really think the price of towel rental has any material impact on the numbers? You understand that university financial statements are audited and certified? You realize that state organizations (e.g., legislative audit division) also oversee and review university budgets and financial statements? You realize that providing inaccurate or misleading financial information can be a violation of state law? Do you really think that universities use incorrect and misleading financial statements when they sell bonds to institutions or to the public, to finance university or athletic buildings? That would be a violation of federal and state securities laws? In any event, if, as you say, all universities are doing these things, then the comparative numbers between schools would still be valid.

I can accept that the universities abide by generally accepted accounting rules. That should not be the point. It is how universities choose to direct revenue from athletics that has wide disparity. Do you think all universities direct all athletics gear and logo revenue to their bookstore? Do you think all universities direct all their athletics concessions revenue to their food service? Do you think all universities charge the AD rent for facilities in which the capital was mostly generated by the AD? Do you think they handle physical plant expenses the same way? There is a multitude of ways universities can diminish AD revenue and increase expenses to hide AD revenue surpluses. This is done to convince boosters and fans that the AD really needs their money and provides more active donation; it also helps justify high ticket prices. UM appears to be the master of this technic; certainly all universities are not the same in this regard.

While they may be standardized by accounting rules, the State contributions are also inflated in a way. A big item is the cost of scholarships, which are typically accounted at full cost, when in fact their cost to the university is incremental.

 

[AZGrizFan]

We can definitely compete with these guys:

Colorado State
New Mexico
Nevada
San Diego State
San Jose State
UNLV
Utah State
Wyoming

They look so much more better than these guys:

Idaho State
North Dakota
Northern Arizona
Northern Colorado
Portland State
Sacramento State
Southern Utah
UC Davis

I support a UM move to FBS. It's a move that will need to be made eventually. But my question is how long will it take the Griz to adjust? What about Egriz expectations? How will a 3 game road trip to San Diego, Fort Collins and Boise be received? What if Boise St. or San Diego State drop 50 or more on TG's defense? After 4 or 5 tough seasons, where is Griz Nation's attitude going to be about the move up?
Will fans have the patience while the Griz program develops? That's the key IMO.

It's comments like these that keep me coming back to egriz. :lol: :lol: :lol: Because yeah, our team makeup would look EXACTLY like it does RIGHT now, every year going forward. We'd NEVER get any better athletes, and we wouldn't get the extra 22 scholarships the other schools get. I mean, come ON people.... :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[NavyBlue]

In my opinion, UM's peer schools are the universities in the same region of the country that look most similar to UM.

I would list the following as UM's peers: (even if UM has a lower athletic budget than many or most of them)

Montana State
Idaho
Boise State (academics are bad)
Idaho State (maybe)
Utah State
Wyoming
Colorado State
New Mexico
New Mexico State
Nevada
UNLV
Fresno State

My list just isn't about sports, but mostly universities in the western region that are mainly the flagship and state universities in other western states. Based on my list above, most of UM's peers are in the Mountain West. I don't list Air Force because of its unique mission. UM could certainly compete with Air Force, and I think UM/AFA would be fun games for UM fans to watch.

 

[SloStang]

We can definitely compete with these guys:

Colorado State
New Mexico
Nevada
San Diego State
San Jose State
UNLV
Utah State
Wyoming

They look so much more better than these guys:

Idaho State
North Dakota
Northern Arizona
Northern Colorado
Portland State
Sacramento State
Southern Utah
UC Davis

I support a UM move to FBS. It's a move that will need to be made eventually. But my question is how long will it take the Griz to adjust? What about Egriz expectations? How will a 3 game road trip to San Diego, Fort Collins and Boise be received? What if Boise St. or San Diego State drop 50 or more on TG's defense? After 4 or 5 tough seasons, where is Griz Nation's attitude going to be about the move up?
Will fans have the patience while the Griz program develops? That's the key IMO.

It's comments like these that keep me coming back to egriz. :lol: :lol: :lol: Because yeah, our team makeup would look EXACTLY like it does RIGHT now, every year going forward. We'd NEVER get any better athletes, and we wouldn't get the extra 22 scholarships the other schools get. I mean, come ON people.... :roll: :roll: :roll:

I have no doubt the Griz will compete for conference championships quickly if/when they move up, but there most likely be a few year transition period as they gear up.

 

[horribilisfan8184]

Are they getting a good deal on towel rental? My place just jacked up their rates and a whale ass like myself usually needs more than one to make it through a session.

Anyone who believes that all athletic programs follow generally accepted accounting principles/practices to the letter is delusional. I went to Stanford for a graduation once so that should qualify me as expert.

Is it me or is football really dragging its ass getting here this year? Hope that's s sign of good things to come.

This quote is from an audit of the University of Montana schools, which, of course, includes the athletic departments. Note the reference generally accepted audit principles.

"In our opinion, based on our audit and the report of other auditors, the financial statements referred to above present fairly, in all material respects, the financial position of the business-type activities and the aggregate discretely presented component units of The University of Montana as of June 30, 2012, and 2011, and the respective changes in financial position and, where applicable, cash flows thereof for each of the fiscal years then ended, in conformity with accounting principles generally accepted in the United States of America."

You realize that statement was on audit reports generated for ENRON......

 

[AZGrizFan]

Are they getting a good deal on towel rental? My place just jacked up their rates and a whale ass like myself usually needs more than one to make it through a session.

Anyone who believes that all athletic programs follow generally accepted accounting principles/practices to the letter is delusional. I went to Stanford for a graduation once so that should qualify me as expert.

Is it me or is football really dragging its ass getting here this year? Hope that's s sign of good things to come.

This quote is from an audit of the University of Montana schools, which, of course, includes the athletic departments. Note the reference generally accepted audit principles.

"In our opinion, based on our audit and the report of other auditors, the financial statements referred to above present fairly, in all material respects, the financial position of the business-type activities and the aggregate discretely presented component units of The University of Montana as of June 30, 2012, and 2011, and the respective changes in financial position and, where applicable, cash flows thereof for each of the fiscal years then ended, in conformity with accounting principles generally accepted in the United States of America."

You realize that statement was on audit reports generated for ENRON......

And every other failed company. :lol: :lol:

 

[PlayerRep]

Talk about a moron. Do you really think the price of towel rental has any material impact on the numbers? You understand that university financial statements are audited and certified? You realize that state organizations (e.g., legislative audit division) also oversee and review university budgets and financial statements? You realize that providing inaccurate or misleading financial information can be a violation of state law? Do you really think that universities use incorrect and misleading financial statements when they sell bonds to institutions or to the public, to finance university or athletic buildings? That would be a violation of federal and state securities laws? In any event, if, as you say, all universities are doing these things, then the comparative numbers between schools would still be valid.

I can accept that the universities abide by generally accepted accounting rules. That should not be the point. It is how universities choose to direct revenue from athletics that has wide disparity. Do you think all universities direct all athletics gear and logo revenue to their bookstore? Do you think all universities direct all their athletics concessions revenue to their food service? Do you think all universities charge the AD rent for facilities in which the capital was mostly generated by the AD? Do you think they handle physical plant expenses the same way? There is a multitude of ways universities can diminish AD revenue and increase expenses to hide AD revenue surpluses. This is done to convince boosters and fans that the AD really needs their money and provides more active donation; it also helps justify high ticket prices. UM appears to be the master of this technic; certainly all universities are not the same in this regard.

While they may be standardized by accounting rules, the State contributions are also inflated in a way. A big item is the cost of scholarships, which are typically accounted at full cost, when in fact their cost to the university is incremental.

I understand the general point you are making, but it has nothing to do with the question of how UM would, realistically, finance moving to the Mountain West. My understanding is that some other schools do similar things. But again, that doesn't matter for purposes of the discussion I am trying to have.

UM does what it does. You can argue, debate and cry about what UM does all you want, but UM's money is already spent and budget shortfalls and declining revenues continue. For purposes of finding additional funds, it doesn't matter whether you think UM is siphoning off too much athletic revenue. If UM were to allow the athletic department to keep more of that revenue, UM would just cut the direct subsidies to the athletic dept--and there would be no additional/net revenue for the athletic department.

To move to the MWC, UM and UM athletics would have to come up with a very large amount of significant funding. Every MWC school subsidizes its athletic budget more than UM does, and, except for Utah St, most subsidize athletics by many millions more.

The Board of Regents just told the MT schools to get tuition frozen again. This is mainly to keep costs of attendance down for students. Do you think the Regents would allow UM to significantly increase student athletic fees to fund a move to the MWC? I don't.

Again, I've said UM should look at a MWC offer if one ever fell out of the sky. However, I can't imagine that UM could finance that big of a move--especially if UM wanted to spend the money necessary to be competitive. Also, I don't think UM could be especially competitive in the MWC. And, I enjoy the Big Sky and following the Montana kids and type of kids UM attracts.