What has happened to Montana H.S. BB?

[NorthEndZoneDan]

Great point on the fundamentals, Mayor. Montana high school kids used to be able to get to the next level with solid fundamentals: good jump shot, excellent defense, ball-handling skills, FTs, etc. But now, few work on those, and Montana isn't going to produce enough true athletes to play college basketball.

I had a high school basketball coach tell me the worst thing to ever happen to high school basketball has been SportsCenter.[/quote]
....one seriously astute observation :thumb:

its not just basketball, as a little league coach I can tell when Kevin Youkilis was on sports center the night before!

 

[EverettGriz]

Great point on the fundamentals, Mayor. Montana high school kids used to be able to get to the next level with solid fundamentals: good jump shot, excellent defense, ball-handling skills, FTs, etc. But now, few work on those, and Montana isn't going to produce enough true athletes to play college basketball.

I had a high school basketball coach tell me the worst thing to ever happen to high school basketball has been SportsCenter.[/quote]
....one seriously astute observation :thumb:

its not just basketball, as a little league coach I can tell when Kevin Youkilis was on sports center the night before!

HA! :lol:

 

[ilovethecats]

this has been discussed before but the other major factor is the overall evoulution of the athletes we see today in all sports. on the topic of basketball kids are simply bigger, stronger, more athletic, etc. i guess i can agree that fundamentals have suffered because of this. i just think in very general terms kids are getting a lot better and more and more kids are prepared for division one basketball. i don't think kids in montana have just magically gotten worse at hoops than kids 20 years ago. it's that 20 years ago you could get a few kids from montana and still be competitive in this conference. i just don't think that is the case anymore.

and before people go off on me. i'm aware that "your" generation is always going to be tougher, stronger, quicker, mentally tougher, etc. than "this" generation. that's why this argument never goes anywhere. and i am also aware that there are always exceptions to the rule. guys like ferch and sprinkle were good enough then and they were good enough now. but i can think of several athletes over the years from montana high schools that played for the cats and griz that i don't think would get a scholarship today. well...maybe for the cats because we're not very good...

i think d1 hoops in general is as good as it's ever been. guys outside of the top 100 can still compete with the top 25 because the talent is spread out all over. mid and low majors can be competitive. and as someone mentioned naia hoops has really gotten better even in the last 10+ years. and i think in many cases these in-state players are choosing to play significant minutes at carroll, western, northern, tech, etc. rather than play for the cats or griz like they would have in the 90's.

:twocents:

 

[citygriz]

with the internet, we have created an alternate reality. it affects all brick-and-mortar stores, the post office, protest rallies and playground hoops, among many other former real-world entities and activies. it's a virtual world. the kids who excel at basketball now are the ones with lesser access to the virtual world.

 

[mtgrizrule]

Reffing around eastern Montana, the best of the best I've seen are all physically unable to play at a D1 level. There aren't any 6-2 guards out here... cuz most of them are centers. In my immediate area, four of our high schools have boys BB coaches who are all ranchers/parents. I see a lack of basic funamentals and too much leaping leaners and whoopee-tee-doo hi-light-attempting crap, instead of good square-up jumpshots and solid rebounding. A lot more "full-court madness" has taken over as well. Personally, I've seen a considerable dropoff in the sport over the past 20 years. It's definitely been morphed into a new dimension.

Well said and all too true. When I did MOA for a few years, I could not believe some of the coaches were coaches. They were clueless, a few potentially talented kids wasted because of no good coaching to build them up. Granted, I reffed Western Montana games, it was said how badly coached many of the B and C schools were, and even worse at the JR High levels. At least most coaches at A and AA have a clue about the game. Even at some bigger schools, the coaches lack some.

Seriously wish smaller schools would take the politics out of who coaches. Most communities have very knowledgeable coaching talent somewhere but those people are often outed because of pissing of the wrong family, faculty member, or not in good enough with the influential community people. It is so sad to see in the little communities. Put the politics aside for the betterment of your athletic programs. The people suffering from this kind of attitude are the kids.

 

[JayLarson]

The quality of players in the state is the problem, even the Frontier schools are having to bring in out of state kids to be competitive. Just check the high school box scores in your local paper, most the high school boys teams don't even score above 60 points a game. Watching a HS bball game these days is kind of like watching someone get a root canal. Josh Huestis from CMR was one of the best players to come out of Montana in the past few years and he is at Stanford.

 

[JayLarson]

So are you trying to say that Ranchers cannot coach Basketball and would not teach fundamentals?? I am a rancher and could probably coach better than many coaches out there. I will admit to not going to hardly any games because they are so boring, but what I see is many of the coaches want to run a set play every time down, so the tempo of the game is very slow these days. I can't believe how many boys scores I see where the winning team does not even get to 50 points. You can't blame all coaches, but you have got to teach the kids to do things other than just run set plays, teach them to think on their own.

 

[hokeyfine]

one of the biggest problems I see is that kids today don't know HOW to play basketball. they have no basketball sense as far as adapting to what the defense is giving them or freely playing the game without a set offense. They are like robots. They have no mind. they put the ball in play and HAVE TO look to the coach for the play. Their instinct on defense is horrible, coaches are constantly roaming the sidelines telling kids where to position themselves.

 

[GrizLA]

So are you trying to say that Ranchers cannot coach Basketball and would not teach fundamentals?? I am a rancher and could probably coach better than many coaches out there. I will admit to not going to hardly any games because they are so boring, but what I see is many of the coaches want to run a set play every time down, so the tempo of the game is very slow these days. I can't believe how many boys scores I see where the winning team does not even get to 50 points. You can't blame all coaches, but you have got to teach the kids to do things other than just run set plays, teach them to think on their own.

I think you are right on...the best high school games I have seen in the past couple of years are mostly offensive run and gun and quick defenses...the worst games seem to have one thing in common...the teams appear "over coached"....even at UM, I see the players, not always in "crunch" time, looking at the bench for guidance instead of looking for what the defense is giving them. Sometimes, I cringe a bit when I see Tinks doing a teaching moment. I recover fast enough because I think it is his way of getting more involved emotionally but many coaches over do it...at this stage of the seaon and this level, players either know how to play or they don't..Some, with talent, like Martin or DeShields learn quickly while others from the over coached high schools, never really learned how to play the game...Good coachers are teachers but not drill sergeants.

 

[Grizmayor]

So are you trying to say that Ranchers cannot coach Basketball and would not teach fundamentals?? I am a rancher and could probably coach better than many coaches out there. I will admit to not going to hardly any games because they are so boring, but what I see is many of the coaches want to run a set play every time down, so the tempo of the game is very slow these days. I can't believe how many boys scores I see where the winning team does not even get to 50 points. You can't blame all coaches, but you have got to teach the kids to do things other than just run set plays, teach them to think on their own.

I guess I should correct myself and add that one rancher... Jason Grebe at Melstone, is involved with the kids there from 1st grade to high school graduation, but he is an anomaly. His teams are SCHOOLED in fundamentals and they won the State C in 2006 with one of the smallest enrollments in the state.
Overall, I meant that these guys are usually high school players from 15-30 years ago who have kids playing and nobody else wants the mantle and since they have an interest at this time of their lives, jump into the coach's britches and do their best. It's a one or two year gig and they're out. I just reffed one of those games tonight... a rancher coaching with HIS dad as his assistant. It isn't pretty.

 

[JayLarson]

How frustrating is it reffing all these low scoring games these days?

 

[Grizmayor]

How frustrating is it reffing all these low scoring games these days?

Ya know, there's two kinds of low-scoring games... the conservative "Hoosiers" type of offensive games and the "these two teams couldn't hit their asses with either hand" types of games. One player from Plevna made all the difference last night. The kid is unstoppable at the C level individually. It takes a pretty good team defense to stop him.
The Hoosier's games are methodical and easy to ref... the other brand? Ummmmm... when you have 7-8 kids crashing the boards every ten seconds because 85% of the time its a missed shot and then it's hack-em-and bump-em trying to steal the ball... and I'm yelling EASY! EASY! EASY! to try and get them to back off... NOT so fun to ref and generally makes for a very emotional game on the floor and in the stands. NOBODY is happy, especially me. I had a game last Tuesday with the Northern Cheyenne and Rosebud where the Rez team was out to score 100 (they did it Thursday night in Hysham with 107)... my partner and I called 34 first-half fouls. That's generally a game-and-a-half of whistles. Craziness by any stretch and it was a 70-point win for the Eagles.

 

[WaGriz4life]

this has been discussed before but the other major factor is the overall evoulution of the athletes we see today in all sports. on the topic of basketball kids are simply bigger, stronger, more athletic, etc. i guess i can agree that fundamentals have suffered because of this. i just think in very general terms kids are getting a lot better and more and more kids are prepared for division one basketball. i don't think kids in montana have just magically gotten worse at hoops than kids 20 years ago. it's that 20 years ago you could get a few kids from montana and still be competitive in this conference. i just don't think that is the case anymore.

and before people go off on me. i'm aware that "your" generation is always going to be tougher, stronger, quicker, mentally tougher, etc. than "this" generation. that's why this argument never goes anywhere. and i am also aware that there are always exceptions to the rule. guys like ferch and sprinkle were good enough then and they were good enough now. but i can think of several athletes over the years from montana high schools that played for the cats and griz that i don't think would
get a scholarship today. well...maybe for the cats because we're not very good...

i think d1 hoops in general is as good as it's ever been. guys outside of the top 100 can still compete with the top 25 because the talent is spread out all over. mid and low majors can be competitive. and as someone mentioned naia hoops has really gotten better even in the last 10+ years. and i think in many cases these in-state players are choosing to play significant minutes at carroll, western, northern, tech, etc. rather than play for the cats or griz like they would have in the 90's.

:twocents:

Right on. Good post. College Basketball is the best it has ever been. D1 teams can't get away with playing small, slow, white guards who can't defend like they used to. No matter how good their fundamentals are

 

[billings_poke]

West and SKyview both have 6"5" kids playing guard. Very solid players that 30 years ago would have middle D1 potential in the Big Sky or Missouri Valley. Now they borderline D1 and would be smart to play at lower level conferences and be the star. The game is simply way more athletic then it used to be.

6'8" Danny Robinson is redshirting for the Cats this year from West high as well.

1-3 players a year from Montana for D1 is about right for the style of ball played now

 

[WyomingGrizFan]

Well, whatever the state of high school basketball is in the State of Montana one thing seems to have changed somewhat:

Men's Griz team freethrow shooting against the MSU Bobcats this year: 13 - 22 for 59.1 %
Lady Griz team freethrow shooting against the MSU Bobcats this year: 8 - 18 for 44.4 %

I would have thought that sometime along the way that some one would have gotten around to reminding people to practise shooting freethrows, somewhere!!! :shock:

 

[cclarkblues]

Well, whatever the state of high school basketball is in the State of Montana one thing seems to have changed somewhat:

Men's Griz team freethrow shooting against the MSU Bobcats this year: 13 - 22 for 59.1 %
Lady Griz team freethrow shooting against the MSU Bobcats this year: 8 - 18 for 44.4 %

I would have thought that sometime along the way that some one would have gotten around to reminding people to practise shooting freethrows, somewhere!!! :shock:

Could have used those extra 9-10 points.

 

[MNGriz04]

I haven't been around the Montana basketball scene in over 20 years so you will have to excuse my ignorance. First off, kids in other states have just as many, if not more, opportunties to pull them away from basketball. However, in places like Seattle, Portland, and Minneapolis, there are extensive AAU programs starting at 3rd grade. Kids in third grade and up travel and play kids in traveling tournaments around the area, especially in the metro areas. Once a kid is in 9th grade he can play on a variety of AAU levels. The kids on the best AAU teams travel to Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis, Seattle, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Orlando, New York, Milwaukee and play against the best talent in the nation. I don't know if kids from Montana get this chance or not but one way to improve your game is to play against better competition and it helps to showcase your talent to college recruiters.

 

[grizpack]

Quality coaches are hard to find in basketball. Look at the Missoula AA programs. Look no further as to why Hellgate is back to being king again? It is because Hayes is the best damn coach in Missoula. Kids want to play for him, and parents want him to coach their kids.

Also football has stolen a lot of potentially good basketball players, because the focus in Montana is football. Also it harder for kids who want to get better to find a lot of other kids to play against in the off season. Many kids spend less time these days being a gym rat, being there is so much more to do these days with technology.

Great response. Being a AA varsity coach used to be the pinnacle of a high school coaching career in Montana. People worked their way up to it, by starting at a small school, and then moving up. Now, it is just "next available person". Add that to the Missoula School District's policy that it basically has to be a teacher who is available to teach an existing open spot, and you get the results you have.

That and the insistence of coaches that athletes focus on 1 or 2 sports.