What do Griz fans think about this?

[CDAGRIZ]

Either you believe that a team can make these kind of judgments and still have integrity, or you cannot tell when you are making mutually exclusive points.

the program has integrity and tarnished it a bit when they brought back a kid who was caught with mushrooms. this isn't that complex.

Agreed. But I'm contending that a program with integrity would not treat a great player differently than a poor player. By suggesting that JH must play well to make it worth bringing him back, you are suggesting the opposite.

I then said 'which is it'? Do you believe that a program can still have integrity if it gives preferential administrative treatment based on stats? Or do you agree with me that JH need not play well to make it "worth" bringing him back because, if he did have to play well to make it worth it, this would mean GU has no integrity.

I assumed that you agreed with the latter due to your acknowledging that GU has integrity. But then, you said they brought him back because he is good. So either you believe that a program can retain integrity after such an act, or you don't realize it when you back yourself into making mutually exclusive claims.

Which one?

a team can have perceived integrity and still treat players differently. that is the case with this. everyone believes they do bc they have this aura of a cutesy catholic mid-major when they act just like a big school. the WCC was already on them for possibly lowering their academic standards and then they did this. maybe they actually had no integrity before and now everyone is finding out. does that work for you?

Perfect. I guess I just thought you were talking about real integrity since you didn't call it percieved integrity. My bad.

I just hope that having people mess up and giving them a second chance doesn't ruin a program's integrity. Then, I guess the Griz would be in the same boat.

 

[Lou]

Are both JH and TH true juniors?

Oh, no! Josh is a redshirt Junior and Tyler is a "true" Junior. Normally when you're talking about athletics you state the athletes athletic grade not their academic one. However, I think I see what you were getting at by saying that. You meant to say that Josh had more experience right? Well I did some research for you since apparently you can't do it yourself:

At the time of their epic matchup:

Total games played in career:
TH: 34
JH:19

Total minutes played in career:
TH: 1,028
JH: 223

So I think the evidence speaks for itself, obviously Josh was the "freshman" at the time of their showdown.

P.S. Hey Joe 16, if you need any more info you can find it at espn.go.com or just keep asking me, either way.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Are both JH and TH true juniors?

Oh, no! Josh is a redshirt Junior and Tyler is a "true" Junior. Normally when you're talking about athletics you state the athletes athletic grade not their academic one. However, I think I see what you were getting at by saying that. You meant to say that Josh had more experience right? Well I did some research for you since apparently you can't do it yourself:

At the time of their epic matchup:

Total games played in career:
TH: 34
JH:19

Total minutes played in career:
TH: 1,028
JH: 223

So I think the evidence speaks for itself, obviously Josh was the "freshman" at the time of their showdown.

P.S. Hey Joe 16, if you need any more info you can find it at espn.go.com or just keep asking me, either way.

WOW! I had no idea there was that big of a gap between the two. The biggest difference between them is talent. Hansbrough has absolutely nothing on Heytvelt. This is why I started the thread. I can't believe people like this sportswriter can just make crazy claims and not ever have to back them up.

For JH to be the most overrated player in the country, he would have to be rated #1 by a large margin. He's not, so he's not.

 

[grizfnz]

Are both JH and TH true juniors?

Oh, no! Josh is a redshirt Junior and Tyler is a "true" Junior. Normally when you're talking about athletics you state the athletes athletic grade not their academic one. However, I think I see what you were getting at by saying that. You meant to say that Josh had more experience right? Well I did some research for you since apparently you can't do it yourself:

At the time of their epic matchup:

Total games played in career:
TH: 34
JH:19

Total minutes played in career:
TH: 1,028
JH: 223

So I think the evidence speaks for itself, obviously Josh was the "freshman" at the time of their showdown.

P.S. Hey Joe 16, if you need any more info you can find it at espn.go.com or just keep asking me, either way.

WOW! I had no idea there was that big of a gap between the two. The biggest difference between them is talent. Hansbrough has absolutely nothing on Heytvelt. This is why I started the thread. I can't believe people like this sportswriter can just make crazy claims and not ever have to back them up.

For JH to be the most overrated player in the country, he would have to be rated #1 by a large margin. He's not, so he's not.

You wouldn't by chance be sharing some of Josh's magic mushrooms now would you??? Tyler plays at one of the most storied programs in college hoops. Not to mention the ACC is one of, if not the top conferences year in and year out, unlike the one bid WCC. I'm sure there have been occasions where the WCC has put more than one team in the field of 64 or perhaps had more than one team ranked in the top 25. To say Tyler has nothing on Josh is absurd. tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/hansbrough_tyler00.html

 

[CDAGRIZ]

city,

Since when does a player's conference make a difference when assessing that player's natural talent? Your reason for me being wrong is that TH plays for UNC? Really? By your logic, a player from any program less storied than UNC could never be more talented than one from UNC. In the media's eyes, this is actually the case. The media created Hansbrough from the start. Hansbrough would whoop JH in any awards voting.

However, you'll notice (maybe) that I was referring to talent when I said TH has nothing on JH. Anybody who has been around the game for any period of time would agree. TH may work harder; and he definitely gets a lot from his limited ability; but JH is the more talented player.

Furthermore, everything is speculation unless we have a real matchup for a basis of comparison. Wait...Oh...we do. Now JH manhandles Hansbrough in a real college BB game; and somehow you say that pointing out that he is a more talented player is absurd? That's just......absurd.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21165795/

Just one of many experts who think I am right and you are wrong.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=14&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Some evidence for you. I think you have a short memory grizfnz. Call me smart, but I don't think Hansbrough can do all of this....

P.S. sorry city, these were all for grizfnz.

 

[Lou]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21165795/

Just one of many experts who think I am right and you are wrong.

ray: CDAgriz

That was a dominating argument, wow!
We're not worthy.

 

[Lou]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=14&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Some evidence for you. I think you have a short memory grizfnz. Call me smart, but I don't think Hansbrough can do all of this....

P.S. sorry city, these were all for grizfnz.

Oh wow!! I think I even forgot how good JH is!!!! Dude is unbelievable! Thanks CDA for making me even more excited about this year :dance:

 

[grizfnz]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21165795/

Just one of many experts who think I am right and you are wrong.

Looks like your expert put TH at the top the list.

 

[WyomingGrizFan]

he has to prove he was worth keeping at the expense of the program's integrity.

Fairly common sentiment, but inherently flawed.

I don't know about the flawed argument angle. Any employee of a Fortune 500 Company that got caught with what Josh Heytvelt had would have been fired on the spot. A bunch of rigamarole rhetoric shouldn't distort the evidence whatsoever in order to cover for preferential treatment. And I accept everything on face value until that's betrayed. Needless to say, I am indeed surprised that Gonzaga allowed Heytvelt to rejoin the team.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21165795/

Just one of many experts who think I am right and you are wrong.

Looks like your expert put TH at the top the list.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TALENT! READ THE DAMN THING AGAIN! He says that TH has limited abilities, but get the most out of them. He then says that JH would be #1 if he only loved bball. Not that this is anything to be proud of, but he is saying, in effect, that JH is the most TALENTED player on the list. Thank you.

 

[AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21165795/

Just one of many experts who think I am right and you are wrong.

Looks like your expert put TH at the top the list.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TALENT! READ THE DAMN THING AGAIN! He says that TH has limited abilities, but get the most out of them. He then says that JH would be #1 if he only loved bball. Not that this is anything to be proud of, but he is saying, in effect, that JH is the most TALENTED player on the list. Thank you.

I think almost anyone would take the more passionate player over the more talented player. That is, when their talent levels are reasonably close.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

he has to prove he was worth keeping at the expense of the program's integrity.

Fairly common sentiment, but inherently flawed.

I don't know about the flawed argument angle. Any employee of a Fortune 500 Company that got caught with what Josh Heytvelt had would have been fired on the spot. A bunch of rigamarole rhetoric shouldn't distort the evidence whatsoever in order to cover for preferential treatment. And I accept everything on face value until that's betrayed. Needless to say, I am indeed surprised that Gonzaga allowed Heytvelt to rejoin the team.

Oh, Wyo, you surprise me and make me want to scream at the same time. Mostly, because I know you to be one of the more intelligent posters on egriz.

If you go back and read through what I said again, I think you'll see what I meant. If you agree that a program cannot have integrity and, at the same time, give preferential treatment, then either A) there was no integrity in the first place; or B) JH would have been treated the same (and thus have nothing to prove via solid play) were he a mere role player.

I'll put my money on B. But you are very free to disagree. One thing that cannot be disagreed with effectively is the fact that my above conditional holds (given that you believe in it's sufficient condition of course). If you believe that a program can have integrity and, at the same time, give preferential treatment....that's another story.

Likewise, if you are referring to perceived integrity, it too, os another story. Hope this helps.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

he has to prove he was worth keeping at the expense of the program's integrity.

Fairly common sentiment, but inherently flawed.

I don't know about the flawed argument angle. Any employee of a Fortune 500 Company that got caught with what Josh Heytvelt had would have been fired on the spot. A bunch of rigamarole rhetoric shouldn't distort the evidence whatsoever in order to cover for preferential treatment. And I accept everything on face value until that's betrayed. Needless to say, I am indeed surprised that Gonzaga allowed Heytvelt to rejoin the team.

Oh, Wyo, you surprise me and make me want to scream at the same time. Mostly, because I know you to be one of the more intelligent posters on egriz.

If you go back and read through what I said again, I think you'll see what I meant. If you agree that a program cannot have integrity and, at the same time, give preferential treatment, then either A) there was no integrity in the first place; or B) JH would have been treated the same (and thus have nothing to prove via solid play) were he a mere role player.

I'll put my money on B. But you are very free to disagree. One thing that cannot be disagreed with effectively is the fact that my above conditional holds (given that you believe in it's sufficient condition of course). If you believe that a program can have integrity and, at the same time, give preferential treatment....that's another story.

Likewise, if you are referring to perceived integrity, it too, os another story. Hope this helps.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21165795/

Just one of many experts who think I am right and you are wrong.

Looks like your expert put TH at the top the list.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TALENT! READ THE DAMN THING AGAIN! He says that TH has limited abilities, but get the most out of them. He then says that JH would be #1 if he only loved bball. Not that this is anything to be proud of, but he is saying, in effect, that JH is the most TALENTED player on the list. Thank you.

I think almost anyone would take the more passionate player over the more talented player. That is, when their talent levels are reasonably close.

I completely agree. I'd rather have a guy who gives it his all night in and night out. TH definitely fits that mold. But at least you agree with me that just because someone fits that mold, it doesn't make them the most talented. And the player's conference definitely has no bearing.

Just think, if being at the top of a list meant that one was the most talented, JJ Redick would have had to be the most talented CBB player in 2005. I don't think anyone can really make that case. Best? Maybe. Most talented? No.

Sorry to everyone for the double post above.