We're in great shape!

[Mousegriz]

I agree with thinkuno. Way too much hype in the off season of recruits....then lots of excuses and blame game once the season gets going. This team is in a weird rut. I'm not throwing in the towel yet but a couple more ugly losses and a few more excuses and it's "wait until next year" time once again. In fact, the hype over next year's recuiting class is already starting. We'll see when they get here...but we've heard it before and I for one won't believe anything until I start to see it on the court, during games against other teams (not after a big intrasquad scrimmage!!).

 

[Griznationalist]

I’m no expert, but I think we’re in great shape and heading the right direction. Interestingly, the human aging process causes people to remember the past as more glorious than it was. We forgave Heathcoat a losing season and two barely-.500 seasons. Brandenburg succeeded Heathcoat with a 6-20 season before leaving after two seasons as UM head coach. Even Montgomery had his share of sub-20-win seasons, including a 14-13 season and a 17-win season during which we hailed him the greatest thing since sliced bread. Heck, I remember, during the glorious years when Krystko played, we never once won the conference title, we thought an NIT bid was a huge deal, yet basketball in Missoula was king. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the present is superior to the past. I'm just saying, when I try to stay objective, I have to appreciate what we've got going for us now and remember that today, now, "these are the good old days," too. Take a look at the numbers below for a dozen seasons worth of perspective. We’re in great shape with excellent leadership right now. If you can't get excited about Grizzly basketball, you're missing something.

The Griz may or may not be in good shape, the rest of the season will tell, but past Griz success is not an illusion. I don't see where Heathcoat ever had a losing season, at worst he broke even 1 year. However, that needs to be put in perspective - he took over a program that had 1 winning season in the prior 10. To even be competitive was a major turnaround for the program, and Griz fans could clearly see the potential in Heathcote (that eventually resulted in a NC for Michigan).

Brandy did have a 6-20 season, but the team never lost those games on the floor, they resulted from forfeiting games due to an ineligible player (broke my heart to give up all those wins), but to any fan that was there that team was a great one - there could be no disappointment with the team, just the forfeits.

Monty never got to the NCAA tournament, and did have that 14-13 season. However I think it is fair to say the BSC was a different league back then. How different? Here are the BSC seeds for the NCAA tournament during Montgomery's years:

79 WSU #7 seed 1st round win (ranked #11 in final poll)
80 WSU #7 seed
81 UI #7 seed
82 UI #3 seed, 1st round win (ranked #8 in final poll, highest ranking during the year was #6)
83 WSU #9 seed
84 UNR #11 seed
85 UNR #14 seed
86 MSU #16 seed

I suppose you could argue that Montgomery choked in the tournament championship games, especially against MSU. Other than that there is no shame in losing to those other BSC tournament participants, and I doubt we will ever see consistent good teams like those in the BSC again. The knock on Montgomery is he was a great coach, but couldn't win the big one. Of course we would have been happy with a final four he got Stanford to.

I have no problem with saying Tinkle deserves a chance, and the jury is still out so stay patient with him, but it is clear that his early success is somewhere between Don Holst and Kennedy, coaches whose records have proven to be the worst in UM history in 30 years. I realize that for those who did not follow the Griz prior to the 95NC game it is hard to understand the success and regional power that Montana was, or how good the BSC used to be in basketball. Tinkle might get there, time will tell, and every GSA member I have talked to loves Tinkle, so I don't believe there is any issue with him keeping his job - unless the teams get so bad that people stop bitching about him, and just completely stop caring and going to the games - I think he will be allowed to lose a tremendous amount of games and prestige for the program, as long as he doesn't lose a tremendous amount of money for the program.

I guess one man's trash is another man's treasure. Holst took us to the NCAA tourney. Montgomery never did. I'd rather go 15-15 every year with a conference championship and NCAA appearance, than go 20-10 with no conference championship and begging for an NIT bid (like we used to do under Monty).

 

[GrizBBIsKing]

I’m no expert, but I think we’re in great shape and heading the right direction. Interestingly, the human aging process causes people to remember the past as more glorious than it was. We forgave Heathcoat a losing season and two barely-.500 seasons. Brandenburg succeeded Heathcoat with a 6-20 season before leaving after two seasons as UM head coach. Even Montgomery had his share of sub-20-win seasons, including a 14-13 season and a 17-win season during which we hailed him the greatest thing since sliced bread. Heck, I remember, during the glorious years when Krystko played, we never once won the conference title, we thought an NIT bid was a huge deal, yet basketball in Missoula was king. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the present is superior to the past. I'm just saying, when I try to stay objective, I have to appreciate what we've got going for us now and remember that today, now, "these are the good old days," too. Take a look at the numbers below for a dozen seasons worth of perspective. We’re in great shape with excellent leadership right now. If you can't get excited about Grizzly basketball, you're missing something.

The Griz may or may not be in good shape, the rest of the season will tell, but past Griz success is not an illusion. I don't see where Heathcoat ever had a losing season, at worst he broke even 1 year. However, that needs to be put in perspective - he took over a program that had 1 winning season in the prior 10. To even be competitive was a major turnaround for the program, and Griz fans could clearly see the potential in Heathcote (that eventually resulted in a NC for Michigan).

Brandy did have a 6-20 season, but the team never lost those games on the floor, they resulted from forfeiting games due to an ineligible player (broke my heart to give up all those wins), but to any fan that was there that team was a great one - there could be no disappointment with the team, just the forfeits.

Monty never got to the NCAA tournament, and did have that 14-13 season. However I think it is fair to say the BSC was a different league back then. How different? Here are the BSC seeds for the NCAA tournament during Montgomery's years:

79 WSU #7 seed 1st round win (ranked #11 in final poll)
80 WSU #7 seed
81 UI #7 seed
82 UI #3 seed, 1st round win (ranked #8 in final poll, highest ranking during the year was #6)
83 WSU #9 seed
84 UNR #11 seed
85 UNR #14 seed
86 MSU #16 seed

I suppose you could argue that Montgomery choked in the tournament championship games, especially against MSU. Other than that there is no shame in losing to those other BSC tournament participants, and I doubt we will ever see consistent good teams like those in the BSC again. The knock on Montgomery is he was a great coach, but couldn't win the big one. Of course we would have been happy with a final four he got Stanford to.

I have no problem with saying Tinkle deserves a chance, and the jury is still out so stay patient with him, but it is clear that his early success is somewhere between Don Holst and Kennedy, coaches whose records have proven to be the worst in UM history in 30 years. I realize that for those who did not follow the Griz prior to the 95NC game it is hard to understand the success and regional power that Montana was, or how good the BSC used to be in basketball. Tinkle might get there, time will tell, and every GSA member I have talked to loves Tinkle, so I don't believe there is any issue with him keeping his job - unless the teams get so bad that people stop bitching about him, and just completely stop caring and going to the games - I think he will be allowed to lose a tremendous amount of games and prestige for the program, as long as he doesn't lose a tremendous amount of money for the program.

I guess one man's trash is another man's treasure. Holst took us to the NCAA tourney. Montgomery never did. I'd rather go 15-15 every year with a conference championship and NCAA appearance, than go 20-10 with no conference championship and begging for an NIT bid (like we used to do under Monty).

Evidently most fans wanted a winning season, not just an ncaa tourney. Attendance dropped every year under Holst (well a slight increase his last year but not by much). There was an approximately 800+ higher attendance average in Kennedy's first season. I guess there were a lot of fans who didn't like Holst finally came back to watch the Griz to find out Kennedy couldn't coach worth crap.

But, Holst's only trip the NCAA tournament was through the longest odds, that if your measure of a coach is just getting to the NCAA tournament, then you have to wait until the end of the season. You need not make any judgements on the coach until then. I think the odds of Holst leading the same team after a fifth place finish in regular season and getting to the NCAA tournament by winning 3 BSC tournament games on the road again would be astronomically small odds.

But, judging by the 800+ increase in attendance the season after Holst was let go indicates to me that it is important for fans to like the coach also. Considering how many fans returned after he was let go, indicated to me he wasn't well liked. Considering Attendance increased the second year under Wayne Tinkle, there are some fans that like him.

But, leading indicators are heading for a considerable drop in attendance this year. Average is only 3,010 which is considerably lower than it was at this point last year. And, for those blaming sunday afternoon games, that is a bunch of whoee as the second highest attended game was sunday afternoon game. And the record is really quite similar to what it was last year at this time also. So, should we fire him if attendance stays real low? It sure seemed like the reason for Holst being let go.

 

[BARN BALL]

The main problem is not having CET. He runs the team, takes care of the ball, breaks the press, and starts the offense. I think he'll be back fairly soon. I sure hope so. Johnson, Taylor and Stockton are good, but they don't have the experience and confidence, yet, to do what CET has been able to do this season.
There's good talent on this team. We'll see how they do in the conference. They have the potential to win most of the conference games. They need CET back, and need to get more consistency. They also need some better fans (you bad fans know who you are).

:? I hope Montanta Basket ball is not at the point where we have to rely on those who cannot get with the program. Taylor can play the point and Stockton can pick up some minutes. I had not missed a game in twenty years but have not attended this year and am waiting to see what the effort is on the 3rd of January and how the CET situation worked thru before I make any future basketball plans. I will not be missed but I do miss Kevin and Andrew and a lot of others who are not as recent. I even got a kick out of Dlouhy and the old Jordan. :?

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Evidently most fans wanted a winning season, not just an ncaa tourney. Attendance dropped every year under Holst (well a slight increase his last year but not by much). There was an approximately 800+ higher attendance average in Kennedy's first season. I guess there were a lot of fans who didn't like Holst finally came back to watch the Griz to find out Kennedy couldn't coach worth crap.

But, Holst's only trip the NCAA tournament was through the longest odds, that if your measure of a coach is just getting to the NCAA tournament, then you have to wait until the end of the season. You need not make any judgements on the coach until then. I think the odds of Holst leading the same team after a fifth place finish in regular season and getting to the NCAA tournament by winning 3 BSC tournament games on the road again would be astronomically small odds.

But, judging by the 800+ increase in attendance the season after Holst was let go indicates to me that it is important for fans to like the coach also. Considering how many fans returned after he was let go, indicated to me he wasn't well liked. Considering Attendance increased the second year under Wayne Tinkle, there are some fans that like him.

But, leading indicators are heading for a considerable drop in attendance this year. Average is only 3,010 which is considerably lower than it was at this point last year. And, for those blaming sunday afternoon games, that is a bunch of whoee as the second highest attended game was sunday afternoon game. And the record is really quite similar to what it was last year at this time also. So, should we fire him if attendance stays real low? It sure seemed like the reason for Holst being let go.

"Most fans" wanted a winning season more than an NCAA berth? Really? Based on what? Was there a poll taken? I don't recall it.

And isn't it a little unfair to talk about attendance under Holst when the games were played in a high school gym? Come on.

 

[Grizbeer]

everybody wants a team to believe in. doesn't matter the coach, we all live vicariously through someone elses achievement after we are 20+ - really, it makes the world go around . Go Griz, hope for a better 2009

 

[GrizBBIsKing]

Evidently most fans wanted a winning season, not just an ncaa tourney. Attendance dropped every year under Holst (well a slight increase his last year but not by much). There was an approximately 800+ higher attendance average in Kennedy's first season. I guess there were a lot of fans who didn't like Holst finally came back to watch the Griz to find out Kennedy couldn't coach worth crap.

But, Holst's only trip the NCAA tournament was through the longest odds, that if your measure of a coach is just getting to the NCAA tournament, then you have to wait until the end of the season. You need not make any judgements on the coach until then. I think the odds of Holst leading the same team after a fifth place finish in regular season and getting to the NCAA tournament by winning 3 BSC tournament games on the road again would be astronomically small odds.

But, judging by the 800+ increase in attendance the season after Holst was let go indicates to me that it is important for fans to like the coach also. Considering how many fans returned after he was let go, indicated to me he wasn't well liked. Considering Attendance increased the second year under Wayne Tinkle, there are some fans that like him.

But, leading indicators are heading for a considerable drop in attendance this year. Average is only 3,010 which is considerably lower than it was at this point last year. And, for those blaming sunday afternoon games, that is a bunch of whoee as the second highest attended game was sunday afternoon game. And the record is really quite similar to what it was last year at this time also. So, should we fire him if attendance stays real low? It sure seemed like the reason for Holst being let go.

"Most fans" wanted a winning season more than an NCAA berth? Really? Based on what? Was there a poll taken? I don't recall it.

And isn't it a little unfair to talk about attendance under Holst when the games were played in a high school gym? Come on.

I wasn't considering the season that was played in Sentinel. So, I wasn't talking about attendance played in a high school gym. Therefore, there wasn't anything unfair. Unless you consider the arena we play in now a high school Gym. So, excuse the omission.

 

[Ballhog]

If the team plays PSU tough and competes for the conference championship I will give the coaches their
due. Anything else is unacceptable at this point. Either this team "buys in" and " is tough enough" to
play with JH" or its all excuses." Excuses are like armpits-every one has them and they all stink"
At some point the never-never land people have to look at reality.
I am not even sure that the BSC is very tough -with the exception of PSU I am not sure anyone is worthy of mention.
Q-Is this Ken Bone's 3rd or 4th season at PSU? :?:

 

[Sugar Bear 16]

One thing that needs to be looked at is how this squad even got to six wins. One was not even against a D-1 team so discount that one. If you look at the rest of the five wins only one team has a winning record and that is North Dakota and they are still playing a lot of their old DII regional rivals (Bemidji State, UM-Crookston). Even if you throw UND in the mix the teams that we have beaten have a combined record of 25-37. If you take out the fact that UND is 7-5 they have beaten only one D1 team in UMKC so that win-loss record looks even worse. I am not one of these people who expect the griz to win every game however saying that we are in great shape is a bit far fetched.

Great points. The 6 wins they do have came against Low major D1 programs with the exception of Santa Clara and Fresno State. The blow out vs. Duke at Duke was expected but, PSU, UW and CSU especially should not have been as bad as they were. I'm not saying they should have won but, with the talent they have they should have played better or been more competitive. I don't think we are in great shape becuase, you don't beat Fresno St. at Fresno and then go and lose to UC Riverside at UC Riverside. Thats a road game you should win becuase, that's why you scheduled them on a road trip. Those 2 games are why I agree with some on here about them being like a pick-up ball style team which means they lack the discipline to be a .500 or better team. Hard Work beats Talent when, Talent doesn't work hard.

Tinkle's recruits have gotten a lot of hype or high ratings so that's why I don't put much into ratings or hype. Actions speak louder than words and that's why being a great recruiter doesn't neccessarily mean you are a great coach motivation or X and O wise. I'll take a coach who lags a little bit in the recruiting aspect but, can get players to play their ass off night after night. The PG excuse may be legite but, I agree with those who stated a good coach or recruiter would have recruited so he had a seasoned back-up PG. Is a lot of this stuff a learning curve for Tinkle? Yes, it is but, at the D1 level it's avoidable for well supported programs and it's not like it's his first or second season either where you expect to see those things. I would be a little more excepting of those coaching learning curves if he could get his guys to play hard night after night.

 

[Sugar Bear 16]

If the team plays PSU tough and competes for the conference championship I will give the coaches their
due. Anything else is unacceptable at this point. Either this team "buys in" and " is tough enough" to
play with JH" or its all excuses." Excuses are like armpits-every one has them and they all stink"
At some point the never-never land people have to look at reality.
I am not even sure that the BSC is very tough -with the exception of PSU I am not sure anyone is worthy of mention.
Q-Is this Ken Bone's 3rd or 4th season at PSU? :?:

It's his 4th season. Some will make the point that he took over a solid program built up by Heath Schoyer, which is true to some point but, he's a really good coach, he built Seattle Pacific into a West D2 power in his 12-14 years? there. I felt Oregon State should have hired him, matter of fact I was hoping they were going to.

 

[Sugar Bear 16]

Well said.

Here is what I don't understand. How can tinkle be such a good recruiter like everyone says, and he be under .500 as a coach. Either he can't coach or he is tremendously overhyping his recruits. Will all the facilities and money and tradition at Montana, can we not beat the UC-Riversides of the world, or even the Utah Valley's? I mean, Brad at MSU is 7-5 with wins over Colorado and Oregon St. Who's our best win, Texas Arlington???? What I get sick of is tinkle appears to be this nice guy on the outside, and he is, however when it starts going down hill he is the first one to blame others. The players, last year didn't have a 3-man, this year AJ has to play the Point guard. Hell, if he IS that good of recruiter and coach, wouldn't you think we would have a back-up point??? Two years ago I remember he even blamed his assistant coaches for a game! Wow! Step up and take command, or have you already lost your players?? Looks like you lost Hasquet already.

Very well said.

I agree it doesn't look like Jordan Hasquet is playing with the same passion he did as a Frosh and Soph.
MSU got those wins on the road as well. Brad can get guys to play their ass off night after night and that's what makes him a good coach.

 

[mporter]

If the team plays PSU tough and competes for the conference championship I will give the coaches their
due. Anything else is unacceptable at this point. Either this team "buys in" and " is tough enough" to
play with JH" or its all excuses." Excuses are like armpits-every one has them and they all stink"
At some point the never-never land people have to look at reality.
I am not even sure that the BSC is very tough -with the exception of PSU I am not sure anyone is worthy of mention.
Q-Is this Ken Bone's 3rd or 4th season at PSU? :?:

It's his 4th season. Some will make the point that he took over a solid program built up by Heath Schoyer, which is true to some point but, he's a really good coach, he built Seattle Pacific into a West D2 power in his 12-14 years? there. I felt Oregon State should have hired him, matter of fact I was hoping they were going to.

Schroyer left the cupboard a bit dry for Bone. There were a lot of seniors on that team that won the BSC regular season title in 2004-05 and regardless of who was the coach, we were going to be sub .500 in 2005-06. Nothing against Schroyer, but he picked the best time to leave, as his stock was going to go down the next year...

 

[Sugar Bear 16]

If the team plays PSU tough and competes for the conference championship I will give the coaches their
due. Anything else is unacceptable at this point. Either this team "buys in" and " is tough enough" to
play with JH" or its all excuses." Excuses are like armpits-every one has them and they all stink"
At some point the never-never land people have to look at reality.
I am not even sure that the BSC is very tough -with the exception of PSU I am not sure anyone is worthy of mention.
Q-Is this Ken Bone's 3rd or 4th season at PSU? :?:

It's his 4th season. Some will make the point that he took over a solid program built up by Heath Schoyer, which is true to some point but, he's a really good coach, he built Seattle Pacific into a West D2 power in his 12-14 years? there. I felt Oregon State should have hired him, matter of fact I was hoping they were going to.

Schroyer left the cupboard a bit dry for Bone. There were a lot of seniors on that team that won the BSC regular season title in 2004-05 and regardless of who was the coach, we were going to be sub .500 in 2005-06. Nothing against Schroyer, but he picked the best time to leave, as his stock was going to go down the next year...

They had a couple of transfers though that sat out that year, that didn't leave the self that dry. I thought they only lost 4 seniors off that team? I'm friends with Steve Gosar so I'll give him a call to get my facts straight.

 

[Griznationalist]

Evidently most fans wanted a winning season, not just an ncaa tourney. Attendance dropped every year under Holst (well a slight increase his last year but not by much). There was an approximately 800+ higher attendance average in Kennedy's first season. I guess there were a lot of fans who didn't like Holst finally came back to watch the Griz to find out Kennedy couldn't coach worth crap.

But, Holst's only trip the NCAA tournament was through the longest odds, that if your measure of a coach is just getting to the NCAA tournament, then you have to wait until the end of the season. You need not make any judgements on the coach until then. I think the odds of Holst leading the same team after a fifth place finish in regular season and getting to the NCAA tournament by winning 3 BSC tournament games on the road again would be astronomically small odds.

But, judging by the 800+ increase in attendance the season after Holst was let go indicates to me that it is important for fans to like the coach also. Considering how many fans returned after he was let go, indicated to me he wasn't well liked. Considering Attendance increased the second year under Wayne Tinkle, there are some fans that like him.

But, leading indicators are heading for a considerable drop in attendance this year. Average is only 3,010 which is considerably lower than it was at this point last year. And, for those blaming sunday afternoon games, that is a bunch of whoee as the second highest attended game was sunday afternoon game. And the record is really quite similar to what it was last year at this time also. So, should we fire him if attendance stays real low? It sure seemed like the reason for Holst being let go.

"Most fans" wanted a winning season more than an NCAA berth? Really? Based on what? Was there a poll taken? I don't recall it.

And isn't it a little unfair to talk about attendance under Holst when the games were played in a high school gym? Come on.

If you'd rather finish a season with a .500+ record than an NCAA tournament berth, you don't piss standing up.

 

[Sugar Bear 16]

Evidently most fans wanted a winning season, not just an ncaa tourney. Attendance dropped every year under Holst (well a slight increase his last year but not by much). There was an approximately 800+ higher attendance average in Kennedy's first season. I guess there were a lot of fans who didn't like Holst finally came back to watch the Griz to find out Kennedy couldn't coach worth crap.

But, Holst's only trip the NCAA tournament was through the longest odds, that if your measure of a coach is just getting to the NCAA tournament, then you have to wait until the end of the season. You need not make any judgements on the coach until then. I think the odds of Holst leading the same team after a fifth place finish in regular season and getting to the NCAA tournament by winning 3 BSC tournament games on the road again would be astronomically small odds.

But, judging by the 800+ increase in attendance the season after Holst was let go indicates to me that it is important for fans to like the coach also. Considering how many fans returned after he was let go, indicated to me he wasn't well liked. Considering Attendance increased the second year under Wayne Tinkle, there are some fans that like him.

But, leading indicators are heading for a considerable drop in attendance this year. Average is only 3,010 which is considerably lower than it was at this point last year. And, for those blaming sunday afternoon games, that is a bunch of whoee as the second highest attended game was sunday afternoon game. And the record is really quite similar to what it was last year at this time also. So, should we fire him if attendance stays real low? It sure seemed like the reason for Holst being let go.

"Most fans" wanted a winning season more than an NCAA berth? Really? Based on what? Was there a poll taken? I don't recall it.

And isn't it a little unfair to talk about attendance under Holst when the games were played in a high school gym? Come on.

If you'd rather finish a season with a .500+ record than an NCAA tournament berth, you don't piss standing up.

There was a ? at the end of his sentence not a period.

 

[Griznationalist]

Correct. I'm supporting his assertion.

 

[mporter]

If the team plays PSU tough and competes for the conference championship I will give the coaches their
due. Anything else is unacceptable at this point. Either this team "buys in" and " is tough enough" to
play with JH" or its all excuses." Excuses are like armpits-every one has them and they all stink"
At some point the never-never land people have to look at reality.
I am not even sure that the BSC is very tough -with the exception of PSU I am not sure anyone is worthy of mention.
Q-Is this Ken Bone's 3rd or 4th season at PSU? :?:

It's his 4th season. Some will make the point that he took over a solid program built up by Heath Schoyer, which is true to some point but, he's a really good coach, he built Seattle Pacific into a West D2 power in his 12-14 years? there. I felt Oregon State should have hired him, matter of fact I was hoping they were going to.

Schroyer left the cupboard a bit dry for Bone. There were a lot of seniors on that team that won the BSC regular season title in 2004-05 and regardless of who was the coach, we were going to be sub .500 in 2005-06. Nothing against Schroyer, but he picked the best time to leave, as his stock was going to go down the next year...

They had a couple of transfers though that sat out that year, that didn't leave the self that dry. I thought they only lost 4 seniors off that team? I'm friends with Steve Gosar so I'll give him a call to get my facts straight.

We lost three 1st team all conference starters that included the BSC Player of the Year (Boxley) and the leader of assists in the nation (Funn). Okay, so it wasn't dry, but there was a big drop off in talent.

 

[beastie]

Brad can get guys to play their ass off night after night and that's what makes him a good coach.

Not something anyone has ever said about Tinkle. In fact exactly the opposite is a repeated theme with Tinkle. That is my main frustration with the teams he has, they don't play hard. ie constant huslte, rebounding and defense.

Tinkle will have to figure out how to truly motivate players. Until then we'll always be around .500 or worse. Including his time as an assistant, he has been with the program about 7 years. He should have that figured out by now, but it is clear he is still battling that most basic skill as a coach.

 

[Sudzilla]

Well, maybe all you fairweather armchair bball coaches can lure Mark Few over to Missoula to help things out. The fans in Spokane are calling for his head too, so he might be available after he gets fired by the internet.

If you stop and take a look around (speaking of both Missoula and Spokane), neither area could ask for a better ambassador for the school, program, and community. Wins will come in time, as will some losses along the way, but all in all the best man is in place and should remain so.

 

[Explosive 1]

Maybe we're not as talented as we thought we were.