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'Voice of the Bobcats' resigned amidst sexual harassment investigation

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Spanky2 said:
Dutch, you mention that you have read 100+ articles, books,studies,cases, etc
Did this give you the knowledge to discuss neurological trauma?
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no it was me

you are dismissing the real content of my post. in answering PR's question as to how I derived my view - "based on what?" was his question, and my answer was more than you quoted, and much more meaningful.

In addition to self education, I'm dealing with trauma in my family from SA the past 3 years (and still in litigation), trying to understand why my wife wanted to kill herself, loving her through our journey of PTSD, recovery, being educated by an amazingly skilled therapist in 150+ hours face to face, with a doctorate in the subject, who both practiced and taught on neurological trauma disorders for 43 years, who was the head of the state of Utah mental services department for some 20 years. I've had a paradigm shift because of this. I actually learned more from her than other really good sources (good starting place IMO is "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk M.D) I have more understanding of my wife's experiences, pain, behavior, heart and mind than ever, my 'education' resulted in us being connected in ways that were not possible before, in my ignorance. That alone confirms the validity of what I've learned. And I've learned how groomers and abusers typically work. I'm not an expert, but a grateful practitioner of what the experts have imparted.

I am always waiting to learn more, what I've learned is fascinating, and amazing what neurologists are discovering and trying to teach us. If you want to enlighten me, I'm all ears. I doubt that is your intent.
 
PlayerRep said:
JDoub said:
read the article, didn't read all the comments.

I believe you Aime.

I'm a Bobcat, and do no want to be associated with anyone like Jay.

I wish I could apologize for him. I wish I could say for him "I apologize. I came on to you incessantly when you clearly didn't want me to, betraying my wife and family, betraying you as a professional and a decent human being. I traumatized you and I was, and am, completely wrong and ashamed. What can I do to make this right by you? You get to decide."

But abusers, groomers, and narcissists don't say those things. They rarely repent, or confess.

I wish Jay would become part of the solution, but he's part of the problem. I hope he sees that someday, and he has the courage to do serious introspection.

Keep being strong, and take trauma seriously -- it's so much more powerful and complicated that most think, it can actually change neurological structures of the brain, and needs to be understood and treated competently.

I actually hurt with you, but admire you for not taking his shit right now. I'm so sorry this happened to you. It's not supposed to be this way.
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So, your view is that the announcer was coming on to the reporter and betraying his wife and family, based on what? Anything other than one night of texts when he tried to get her to come down for a drink and texted this?

"“Come down here. We can get drunk and make bad decisions! Lol!!!”

“Looks like we have a love connection!!”

“Don’t fight it…”

“No you don’t. You LOVE me… And you know it! Hahahaha It’s ok, I won’t tell!” Sanderson replied.'

You are sure that that isn't banter between friends, or sort of friends, or minor flirting? You take all of what he said as being serious, and not joking, or semi-joking?

What if other people were to say that the reporter was very social and a flirt at the functions?

What if others were to say that, at least at this time, these two seemed to be friends?

I'm not going to support the guy, or even say that this type of stuff, especially if there was more of it, isn't sexual harassment, but I don't conclude on the basis of what I've read that the guy is a "douche", or that this was a "come on" or certainly not much of one, and that this betrayed his wife and family.

Didn't they know each other for something like 18 months? While not appropriate, if this is all the guy has for moves or a "come on", I don't think his weak attempt or ineptitude was going to get his very far.

Just playing lawyer and devil's advocate. And again, I would have no problem if Learfield/MSU had fired him based just on the one text chain and her saying he grabbed her butt. But, they must have known about those facts for months (since shorty after Sept. 25, or before), and then probably the preliminary conclusion in the draft report in early December, and yet they appear to have done nothing to fire him. Does that not tell you that there may a bit more to this story?

I don't know why she continued to respond to and text with him. Why didn't she just not respond? Why didn't she say: "This is inappropriate and I don't like it. Stop sending me texts." Or, even be stronger, and say: "Stop this or I'm going to talk to (your boss)."
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I disagree if you are implying with the highlighted portion of your post above that MSU did not take steps to remove him. In the report MSU concluded: "Sanderson more likely than not “committed multiple acts of sexual misconduct and harassment" against a Missoulian sports reporter in February and again in July at the Big Sky Conference football meetings." The report came out in early December and he resigned 3 weeks later.

I believe that once the report came out it was a negotiated deal that Sanderson would resign and MSU wouldn't say anything. By doing so MSU minimized its liability to Just because it took steps to remove him once the report was issued, and minimized a wrongful discharge claim, ala Mike Kramer, being made by Sanderson.
 
br fan said:
I disagree if you are implying with the highlighted portion of your post above that MSU did not take steps to remove him. In the report MSU concluded: "Sanderson more likely than not “committed multiple acts of sexual misconduct and harassment" against a Missoulian sports reporter in February and again in July at the Big Sky Conference football meetings." The report came out in early December and he resigned 3 weeks later.

I believe that once the report came out it was a negotiated deal that Sanderson would resign and MSU wouldn't say anything. By doing so MSU minimized its liability to Just because it took steps to remove him once the report was issued, and minimized a wrongful discharge claim, ala Mike Kramer, being made by Sanderson.
Click to expand...

I think MSU managed it's liability by contracting with Learfield, right? Jay was employed by a 3rd party to MSU, Learfield Sports. Mike Kramer was employed by the university.
 
br fan said:
PlayerRep said:
JDoub said:
read the article, didn't read all the comments.

I believe you Aime.

I'm a Bobcat, and do no want to be associated with anyone like Jay.

I wish I could apologize for him. I wish I could say for him "I apologize. I came on to you incessantly when you clearly didn't want me to, betraying my wife and family, betraying you as a professional and a decent human being. I traumatized you and I was, and am, completely wrong and ashamed. What can I do to make this right by you? You get to decide."

But abusers, groomers, and narcissists don't say those things. They rarely repent, or confess.

I wish Jay would become part of the solution, but he's part of the problem. I hope he sees that someday, and he has the courage to do serious introspection.

Keep being strong, and take trauma seriously -- it's so much more powerful and complicated that most think, it can actually change neurological structures of the brain, and needs to be understood and treated competently.

I actually hurt with you, but admire you for not taking his shit right now. I'm so sorry this happened to you. It's not supposed to be this way.
Click to expand...

So, your view is that the announcer was coming on to the reporter and betraying his wife and family, based on what? Anything other than one night of texts when he tried to get her to come down for a drink and texted this?

"“Come down here. We can get drunk and make bad decisions! Lol!!!”

“Looks like we have a love connection!!”

“Don’t fight it…”

“No you don’t. You LOVE me… And you know it! Hahahaha It’s ok, I won’t tell!” Sanderson replied.'

You are sure that that isn't banter between friends, or sort of friends, or minor flirting? You take all of what he said as being serious, and not joking, or semi-joking?

What if other people were to say that the reporter was very social and a flirt at the functions?

What if others were to say that, at least at this time, these two seemed to be friends?

I'm not going to support the guy, or even say that this type of stuff, especially if there was more of it, isn't sexual harassment, but I don't conclude on the basis of what I've read that the guy is a "douche", or that this was a "come on" or certainly not much of one, and that this betrayed his wife and family.

Didn't they know each other for something like 18 months? While not appropriate, if this is all the guy has for moves or a "come on", I don't think his weak attempt or ineptitude was going to get his very far.

Just playing lawyer and devil's advocate. And again, I would have no problem if Learfield/MSU had fired him based just on the one text chain and her saying he grabbed her butt. But, they must have known about those facts for months (since shorty after Sept. 25, or before), and then probably the preliminary conclusion in the draft report in early December, and yet they appear to have done nothing to fire him. Does that not tell you that there may a bit more to this story?

I don't know why she continued to respond to and text with him. Why didn't she just not respond? Why didn't she say: "This is inappropriate and I don't like it. Stop sending me texts." Or, even be stronger, and say: "Stop this or I'm going to talk to (your boss)."
Click to expand...

I disagree if you are implying with the highlighted portion of your post above that MSU did not take steps to remove him. In the report MSU concluded: "Sanderson more likely than not “committed multiple acts of sexual misconduct and harassment" against a Missoulian sports reporter in February and again in July at the Big Sky Conference football meetings." The report came out in early December and he resigned 3 weeks later.

I believe that once the report came out it was a negotiated deal that Sanderson would resign and MSU wouldn't say anything. By doing so MSU minimized its liability to Just because it took steps to remove him once the report was issued, and minimized a wrongful discharge claim, ala Mike Kramer, being made by Sanderson.
Click to expand...

My question is why didn't MSU push Learfield to get rid of the announcer when they first learned of the behavior? They had to have known about it by late September, if not earlier? That's my question.

Was it really necessary to conduct a Title IX investigation/proceeding from Sept. 25 until early December, to determine the facts? As I have said, the texts and her allegation of butt grabbing, should have been enough for signification action to be taken, in my view.
Unless, there really are two sides of the story, and the MSU/Learfield are not sure who to believe?

You may be right that the announcer was told he needed to resign, but he has denied that, and I see nothing in the article to indicate that he was forced to resign. Again, not saying that didn't occur.

In the JJ/UM proceeding, I think the UM dean took action within a week or two. Why did this one take 2.5 months, and the report may not be finalized even now (35 months later)?

In this day and age, I think a complaint that a college announcer has harassed a reporter, based only on the text chain, the butt grabbing allegation, and the fact that she made the complaint (which I assume has more stuff in it), is enough to start taking action. While I suppose there may have been some warnings along the way that we aren't aware of, I keep wondering what seems to have made MSU/Learfield hesitant. Why did they need a formal 2.5 month investigation, which is now 3.5 months? I understand that appeals can take time, but I see nothing to indicate that any action is being appealed at this time. It looks like no strong action was taken.

The announcer doesn't even seem to have an attorney involved on his behalf. Yes, MSU/Learfield appear to have hesitated for months.
 
JDoub said:
br fan said:
I disagree if you are implying with the highlighted portion of your post above that MSU did not take steps to remove him. In the report MSU concluded: "Sanderson more likely than not “committed multiple acts of sexual misconduct and harassment" against a Missoulian sports reporter in February and again in July at the Big Sky Conference football meetings." The report came out in early December and he resigned 3 weeks later.

I believe that once the report came out it was a negotiated deal that Sanderson would resign and MSU wouldn't say anything. By doing so MSU minimized its liability to Just because it took steps to remove him once the report was issued, and minimized a wrongful discharge claim, ala Mike Kramer, being made by Sanderson.
Click to expand...

I think MSU managed it's liability by contracting with Learfield, right? Jay was employed by a 3rd party to MSU, Learfield Sports. Mike Kramer was employed by the university.
Click to expand...

I probably shouldn't have used "wrongful discharge," but I don't know if it is really that different than Kramer's situation. MSU fired Kramer "without cause," and then got sued by Kramer for MSU giving reasons for firing him, which Kramer said amounted to slander. If MSU would have "fired" Sanderson and given reasons for doing so it's very similar to Kramer. As you note MSU was contracting with Learfield, so MSU has to a contend with Learfield making a breach of contract claim against it. Regardless, it doesn't change my belief that Sanderson resigning and MSU not saying anything was part of an agreement that MSU felt minimized its exposure.
 
br fan said:
JDoub said:
br fan said:
I disagree if you are implying with the highlighted portion of your post above that MSU did not take steps to remove him. In the report MSU concluded: "Sanderson more likely than not “committed multiple acts of sexual misconduct and harassment" against a Missoulian sports reporter in February and again in July at the Big Sky Conference football meetings." The report came out in early December and he resigned 3 weeks later.

I believe that once the report came out it was a negotiated deal that Sanderson would resign and MSU wouldn't say anything. By doing so MSU minimized its liability to Just because it took steps to remove him once the report was issued, and minimized a wrongful discharge claim, ala Mike Kramer, being made by Sanderson.
Click to expand...

I think MSU managed it's liability by contracting with Learfield, right? Jay was employed by a 3rd party to MSU, Learfield Sports. Mike Kramer was employed by the university.
Click to expand...

I probably shouldn't have used "wrongful discharge," but I don't know if it is really that different than Kramer's situation. MSU fired Kramer "without cause," and then got sued by Kramer for MSU giving reasons for firing him, which Kramer said amounted to slander. If MSU would have "fired" Sanderson and given reasons for doing so it's very similar to Kramer. As you note MSU was contracting with Learfield, so MSU has to a contend with Learfield making a breach of contract claim against it. Regardless, it doesn't change my belief that Sanderson resigning and MSU not saying anything was part of an agreement that MSU felt minimized its exposure.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are right. However, I assume that the announcer has a contract with Learfield and I assume it requires him to conduct himself in accordance with certain standards.

Kramer was fired for other reasons, is my recollection. Like too much bad behavior by players, not Kramer's behavior. The wrongful termination part of his claim was tossed out by a judge.

Look at the Ida. St. assistant coach texting stuff from last fall. Ida St took fairly prompt action.
 
Plate rep and Yukon did you even read the article? His creepy comments included “she has great tits” and “the hardest part of my job is not f**king the players” which were corroborated by other witnesses. His groping her was mentioned by her at the time to multiple witnesses. This comes from a completed investigation, there is nothing to wait for. Get you heads out of your own asses, the guy is a sexual harasser.
 
zootownrox said:
Plate rep and Yukon did you even read the article? His creepy comments included “she has great tits” and “the hardest part of my job is not f**king the players” which were corroborated by other witnesses. His groping her was mentioned by her at the time to multiple witnesses. This comes from a completed investigation, there is nothing to wait for. Get you heads out of your own asses, the guy is a sexual harasser.
Click to expand...

Did you even read my posts, and the article? I said that they guy should have been moved along months ago. Can you not read?

And, no, the investigation/report was not done as of the time of the article. The article was based on a draft report issued in early December. Why did it take 2.5 months to get to the point of a draft report/

I don't characterize grabbing a girl's butt as "groping'. Needs to be a lot more touching than that , in my view. Not saying it's acceptable, but lots of girls have had their butt grabbed or touched.

Is it "creepy" to say a girl has great tits? I suppose you have never commented on breasts.

Some of the stuff he supposedly said was not corroborated. Read the article.

You are a dummy.
 
PlayerRep said:
zootownrox said:
Plate rep and Yukon did you even read the article? His creepy comments included “she has great tits” and “the hardest part of my job is not f**king the players” which were corroborated by other witnesses. His groping her was mentioned by her at the time to multiple witnesses. This comes from a completed investigation, there is nothing to wait for. Get you heads out of your own asses, the guy is a sexual harasser.
Click to expand...

Did you even read my posts, and the article? I said that they guy should have been moved along months ago. Can you not read?

And, no, the investigation/report was not done as of the time of the article. The article was based on a draft report issued in early December. Why did it take 2.5 months to get to the point of a draft report/

I don't characterize grabbing a girl's butt as "groping'. Needs to be a lot more touching than that , in my view. Not saying it's acceptable, but lots of girls have had their butt grabbed or touched.

Is it "creepy" to say a girl has great tits? I suppose you have never commented on breasts.

Some of the stuff he supposedly said was not corroborated. Read the article.

You are a dummy.
Click to expand...

If you think commenting on a WOMAN'S (not a 'girl,' as you said) breasts or grabbing her butt are not inappropriate, then I am at a loss as to how anyone could continue this conversation with you.
 
I once heard a great lawyer say that you can't get in trouble if you keep your mouth shut; some of these comments prove the veracity of this comment; your friend, yogi
 
Would it be inappropriate to send the Missoulian the comment below with the accompanying info that the statement came from Jack Manning, prominent Missoula lawyer on e-griz. I mean I have seen some things on e-griz that make me shake my head but this is pretty much over the top. Would a finger up the vagina be groping in Mr. Manning's opinion.


"I don't characterize grabbing a girl's butt as "groping'. Needs to be a lot more touching than that , in my view. Not saying it's acceptable, but lots of girls have had their butt grabbed or touched.

Is it "creepy" to say a girl has great tits? I suppose you have never commented on breasts."
 
by Spanky2 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:50 pm

Catfish: you are out of line! PR doesn’t deserve those comments!!
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Doesn't deserve???????????????????. Just why exactly. He said them. The wheels of the machine have already been engaged. This one is over the top
 
You can lock it up but I have things copied. Without a total apology from PR this is going much further - think nationwide.
 
sdk.catfish said:
You can lock it up but I have things copied. Without a total apology from PR this is going much further - think nationwide.
Click to expand...

Happy to own my views and statements. Go for it.

Nationwide? Ha. Good joke.

Hope you are happy to own your violation of egriz rules by putting poster names on egriz. And trying
to cause harm to another poster. Assume you realize that would bean actionable tort.

Get some good liability insurance right away. Could use some extra retirement funds.

Thanks to other posters for their support.
 
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