Unintended consequences

[Spanky]

Gentlemen: Engstrom's credibility has been damaged beyond repair. At this point, he couldn't manage the Missoula dog pond. Time for Brian Schweitzer to put him out of his misery, take our lumps and move on.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

...it was his unleashing his attack dog, Coture, to ensure his desired outcome was realized.

I'm really not being argumentative, but I don't know any facts that support this (or refute it). Can you elucidate? Are there e-mails or other correspondence that bear this out?

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Gentlemen: Engstrom's credibility has been damaged beyond repair. At this point, he couldn't manage the Missoula dog pond. Time for Brian Schweitzer to put him out of his misery, take our lumps and move on.

You mean the fish pond?

 

[Spanky]

either :thumb:

 

[br fan]

The DOE and Title IX do not give UM any authority to deny someone due process. I sure as heck hope UM is not blowing off the red flag warning that Judge Christiansen gave UM like you are because we really will be in trouble.

Heres the funny thing one, of the more recent instances does just that. You can read through it if you want but I doubt you will:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/04/24/ocr-dear-colleague-letter-prompts-big-change-sexual-assault-hearings-unc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I read the attached article and it discussed the burden of proof issue, but it did not discuss due process.

 

[tnt]

Towards the bottom it does. The article talks in large part how little Due Process the "trained" requirement allows the accused in these matters. If you look at the UNC process (all hunky dory with the DOE we look pretty good.......

The whole thing is pretty scary. It almost sounds like goon squads/hit men

 

[UMGriz75]

The guy had no idea what he was getting into..Yeah he has made some mistakes but damn Dennison set this guy up to fail!

Every single incident alleged, claimed, dreamed up, or has been charged happened since Dennison retired.

EVERY.

SINGLE.

ONE.

 

[grizcountry420]

The guy had no idea what he was getting into..Yeah he has made some mistakes but damn Dennison set this guy up to fail!

Every single incident alleged, claimed, dreamed up, or has been charged happened since Dennison retired.

EVERY.

SINGLE.

ONE.

Your caps is on............

 

[UMGriz75]

The guy had no idea what he was getting into..Yeah he has made some mistakes but damn Dennison set this guy up to fail!

Every single incident alleged, claimed, dreamed up, or has been charged happened since Dennison retired.

EVERY.

SINGLE.

ONE.

Your caps is on............

If you open your window, you can hear me ....

 

[PlayerRep]

S

Be careful what you wish for, If Engstrom were to be fired or resigned it would only stir the pot more. The overall negative depiction of the university has been blown out of proportion in the state and nationally. Engstrom's leaving at this point in time would add an enormous amount of fuel to the fire.

So you like the trade off - retaining an irrational loose cannon administrator who gives us no reason to believe that his proven ability to create chaos within the university community will not continue into the future - in exchange for the opinions of faceless outsiders who already believe the worst about UM and the city in which it resides? Given the fact that a tight-lipped Engstrom has left everyone to draw his own conclusions how much worse could their unsupported suppositions become? I'm more concerned with the university regaining a modicum of credibility a hell of a lot more than worrying about what the New York Times and ESPN mjmight think. Screw'em. We need to court martial Captain Queeg before the healing can begin.

I think I disagree with you, but I am not sure because I find your argument highly contradictory. You appear to know a lot more about why Engstrom made the decisions than I do, even though you call him tight lipped. You call him an irrational loose cannon and then admit you don't know why he did what he did. You also want the university to "regain a modicum of credibility", but not nationally. With who then?

I did say in my post "state and nationally". I think, like you do, that the amount of conjecture on this board that has become fact is unreasonable. I also am at a loss as to why Engstrom did what he did. However, at this point in time and with very little to go on I just think it would hurt the university's credibility more and accomplish less by having him go now. Finding a replacement would also complicate things.

It could be simple as wanting a change of leadership (as he has done with the rest of his cabinet and is frequently done with a new president) Letting the AD go under the cloudy circumstances almost necessitated letting the ocach go. No one knows what was said at the "firing" except the 3 there all whom have been very silent) But you are correct on larger basis and even on a local basis the loss of an athletic director and coach is pretty inconsequential. (except to the rabid sports fan) The sad reality is the the same happens on an almost daily basis around the country with little more than hiccup to the effected schools. Anyone who thinks RE is a loose cannon has no idea what a calculating SOB he is. He didn't get this far any other way.

Are you saying that firing the head coach and AD happens frequently around the country? That's not true. I read right that a head football coach and AD had never been fired at the same time, except at Penn St.

 

[UMGriz75]

3. Keeping Couture around despite issues with due process & his questionable actions leading up to the Saudi skipping town.

But...Couture is not still around.

He was in his office this morning; disciplining a student under the conduct code; in that case the more typical Dean of Students approach ... "a little talk."

 

[br fan]

Towards the bottom it does. The article talks in large part how little Due Process the "trained" requirement allows the accused in these matters. If you look at the UNC process (all hunky dory with the DOE we look pretty good.......

The whole thing is pretty scary. It almost sounds like goon squads/hit men

I'm sorry tnt, I'm not sure what you're looking at or where you're getting your argument. I do see this quote from the article on how schools should be attempting to set up their student courts:

"We shouldn’t be trying to mimic the courts, we should be trying to look at it as, ‘O.K., what can we do ... to ensure a process is fair and equitable and impartial?"

The article talks about how difficult it will be for schools to comply, but I see nothing in it that implies,
and I think you are reading a little too far into it if you believe, that schools will be in compliance if they are unfair. Judge Christiansen looked at UM's process and was "offended" by its lack of fairness, so I'm having a hard time seeing your argument that the DOE would be happy with the process UM used.

I'm also missing your argument that the DOE would be satisfied with UM, based on what North Carolina did. The article you cited states North Carolina felt they were unable to handle sexual assault cases, and so took the jurisdiction to hear them away from their student court. The article also states that North Carolina's decision (in Swinton's opinion) was a "sign of things to come" for other colleges. UM, on the other hand, felt it could handle it's proceeding, but Judge Christiansen's opinion makes it fairly apparent UM could not.

The only thing I can see UM did that even arguably was in compliance with the DOE was the use of the "preponderance of the evidence" standard rather than a "clear and convincing" standard for the burden of proof as per the Dear Collegue letter. But I'm not sure that even the DOE would agree that the "preponderance of the evidence" standard should be applied in JJ's situation since UM went over a year without updating its student handbook, at a time well after the allegations had been made against JJ. As Judge Christiansen noted, the online version of the handbook still even reflected that the burden was "clear and convincing" on the date of JJ's hearing.

I would not be surprised if as part of its investigation the DOE does't cited UM with a violation for the manner in which it conducted JJ's hearing.

 

[polsongrizz]

We're WAY beyond worrying about public perception. We need to exercise the cancer. :evil: :evil: :evil:

:question: oke: