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Unintended consequences

garizzalies said:
ENGSTROM said:
"I am writing to confirm The University of Montana’s decision to retain you for the purpose of your assistance in conducting an independent, fair, and thorough investigation into allegations that one or more University of Montana students may have engaged in drug-induced sexual assault, or date rape, against other students.
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it pisses me off that UM referred to the Bartz report as "independant" when UM retained ultimate editorial authority and did in fact "cover-up" pertinent facts in it before release to the public. "internal" and "independant" are mutually exclusive.
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+1

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Here's a question for y'all: Do you judge a university president based on the totality of his/her assigned responsibilities, or only those that have to do with your favorite sacred cow(s)? In other words, for those of you who are calling for Engstrom's head (over and over and over and over again), is it only because of the O'Day/Pflugrad thing?
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Here's a question for y'all: Do you judge a university president based on the totality of his/her assigned responsibilities, or only those that have to do with your favorite sacred cow(s)? In other words, for those of you who are calling for Engtrom's head (over and over and over and over again), is it only because of the O'Day/Pflugrad thing?
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...really?

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Silvertip said:
Grisly Fan said:
Silvertip said:
AZGrizFan said:
We're WAY beyond worrying about public perception. We need to exercise the cancer. :evil: :evil: :evil:
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You want maybe to put it on a tread mill or into a tai chi class before the exorcising? ;) ;) ;)
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Actually I think the work he wanted was "excise".

ex·cise  [ik-sahyz]

verb (used with object), ex·cised, ex·cis·ing.
1. to expunge, as a passage or sentence, from a text.
2. to cut out or off, as a tumor.
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Mmm, I'll stick with exorcise which morphs from exercise simply by changing a single letter :twocents:
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THAT'S the word I was looking for.

Irregardless, my point stands. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Give us some concrete examples, Music Man.
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I got one (but he fixed 2 months later than I thought he would) from his letter to Barz:

"University Legal Counsel David Aronofsky is also available to assist you, as is Vice-President Jim Foley, who will be the sole University contact with media about this matter."

Is anyone getting a picture????

Seems to me he's doing a pretty good job of exposing Dennison's cronies.....
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Give us some concrete examples, Music Man.
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One example may be is that under his tenure we now have a "new and improved" student conduct code. I'm not sure how many times the new and improved conduct code has been used, but we in the one situation we have seen it in action we have a Federal Judge who had this to say about it:

"From a normative perspective, the process applied to Plaintiff Doe and the behavior of university officials in investigating and prosecuting this matter offends the court’s sense of fundamental fairness and appears to fall short of the minimal moral obligation of any tribunal to respect the rights and dignity of the accused"

It appears to me that under Engstrom the student conduct code went from bad to worse.
 
br fan said:
AllWeatherFan said:
Give us some concrete examples, Music Man.
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One example may be is that under his tenure we now have a "new and improved" student conduct code. I'm not sure how many times the new and improved conduct code has been used, but we in the one situation we have seen it in action we have a Federal Judge who had this to say about it:

"From a normative perspective, the process applied to Plaintiff Doe and the behavior of university officials in investigating and prosecuting this matter offends the court’s sense of fundamental fairness and appears to fall short of the minimal moral obligation of any tribunal to respect the rights and dignity of the accused"

It appears to me that under Engstrom the student conduct code went from bad to worse.
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The student code reflects the Federal regulations if the judge has a beef it had best be with the DOE and Title IX. He did change the athletic code. Don't know how that has worked out. It specifies penalties
 
tnt said:
br fan said:
AllWeatherFan said:
Give us some concrete examples, Music Man.
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One example may be is that under his tenure we now have a "new and improved" student conduct code. I'm not sure how many times the new and improved conduct code has been used, but we in the one situation we have seen it in action we have a Federal Judge who had this to say about it:

"From a normative perspective, the process applied to Plaintiff Doe and the behavior of university officials in investigating and prosecuting this matter offends the court’s sense of fundamental fairness and appears to fall short of the minimal moral obligation of any tribunal to respect the rights and dignity of the accused"

It appears to me that under Engstrom the student conduct code went from bad to worse.
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The student code reflects the Federal regulations if the judge has a beef it had best be with the DOE and Title IX. He did change the athletic code. Don't know how that has worked out. It specifies penalties
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The DOE and Title IX do not give UM any authority to deny someone due process. I sure as heck hope UM is not blowing off the red flag warning that Judge Christiansen gave UM like you are because we really will be in trouble.
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Give us some concrete examples, Music Man.
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I'm on my phone so I'll just leave cliffs:

Besides AD & coach firings...

1. Changing student conduct code
2. Saudi rapist
3. Keeping Couture around despite issues with due process & his questionable actions leading up to the Saudi skipping town.
4. Lack of "independent" & "unbiased" reporting in the Bars report due to his editing.

I don't respect him & he has done nothing to earn my respect. Why should I want him to lead the university that I love & pay money into every year?

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Do you folks think the university president is or should be responsible for either writing or applying a student conduct code? That seems like a fairly low-level administrative responsibility to me.

Granted, if any major problems are discovered in terms of the establishment or application of a conduct code, and those problems are not resolved through the normal administrative channels, ultimately the president is responsible for addressing that issue. But it seems to me that the president should not spend his or her time worrying about such details.

Is this a bigger deal than I'm making it out to be, or is it just because it involves football players?
 
br fan said:
tnt said:
br fan said:

The DOE and Title IX do not give UM any authority to deny someone due process. I sure as heck hope UM is not blowing off the red flag warning that Judge Christiansen gave UM like you are because we really will be in trouble.
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Heres the funny thing one, of the more recent instances does just that. You can read through it if you want but I doubt you will:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/04/24/ocr-dear-colleague-letter-prompts-big-change-sexual-assault-hearings-unc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Do you folks think the university president is or should be responsible for either writing or applying a student conduct code? That seems like a fairly low-level administrative responsibility to me.

Granted, if any major problems are discovered in terms of the establishment or application of a conduct code, and those problems are not resolved through the normal administrative channels, ultimately the president is responsible for addressing that issue. But it seems to me that the president should not spend his or her time worrying about such details.

Is this a bigger deal than I'm making it out to be, or is it just because it involves football players?
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If the same breaches in due process were found & it was for any other student I would be just as upset.

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AllWeatherFan said:
GrizMusician said:
3. Keeping Couture around despite issues with due process & his questionable actions leading up to the Saudi skipping town.
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But...Couture is not still around.
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My apologies - I missed that!

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AllWeatherFan said:
Do you folks think the university president is or should be responsible for either writing or applying a student conduct code? That seems like a fairly low-level administrative responsibility to me.

Granted, if any major problems are discovered in terms of the establishment or application of a conduct code, and those problems are not resolved through the normal administrative channels, ultimately the president is responsible for addressing that issue. But it seems to me that the president should not spend his or her time worrying about such details.

Is this a bigger deal than I'm making it out to be, or is it just because it involves football players?
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It's not the writing of the code that RE f*cked up, it was his unleashing his attack dog, Coture, to ensure his desired outcome was realized. And the venom was directed only at football.

This stuff is not planning by RE, it is the desperation of a cornered rat. That said, I still say, be careful what you ask for; in this climate the next UM pres. would be a Gwen Florio look-alike.
 
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