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No need to make this more complex than it is. Georgia didn't need to press, Zags didn't need do throw the long pass (Daye was WIDE open) and butler didn't need to tackle the guy. Under that rationale, which is exactly what happened in the most basic terms, it was partially GU's fault.
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
I'll be honest, if it was me, I would've tried to catch him and shove him into the pad underneath the basket.

WOW!

AtHomeInTheDahlberdDen said:
Whoever called that play is lucky it didn't end up costing Pargo a tailbone.

If the end result was Pargo getting hurt, placing blame for that injury on the playcaller assumes that:

1) Butler has no control over his own actions.

and/or

2) The playcaller is able to predict the future.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
I'll be honest, if it was me, I would've tried to catch him and shove him into the pad underneath the basket.

WOW!
He would've bounced off of it and it would've been fine.
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlberdDen said:
t;]Whoever called that play is lucky it didn't end up costing Pargo a tailbone.

If the end result was Pargo getting hurt, placing blame for that injury on the playcaller assumes that:

1) Butler has no control over his own actions.

and/or

2) The playcaller is able to predict the future.

I disagree. It means that Butler or a similar player is going to probably commit a hard foul if he is anywhere near pargo and that anyone calling the play should've weighed that in their minds considering, you know, they could've tossed the ball to the other team (or daye) and it wouldn't have mattered. There were a lot of factors that led to pargo getting plastered (almost all of them on georgia) and you take out any of those factors and it doesn't happen. One of those factors was the play called.
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
No need to make this more complex than it is. Georgia didn't need to press, Zags didn't need do throw the long pass (Daye was WIDE open) and butler didn't need to tackle the guy. Under that rationale, which is exactly what happened in the most basic terms, it was partially GU's fault.


But if Georgia's reason for calling said press was indeed sincere, they would have wanted Gonzaga to throw the long pass in order to expose a flaw in thier press which they could fix and become a better ballclub. Taking it easy oin the press defeats Georgia's supposed rationale for calling it in the first place. I am almost positive that Georgia does not scrimmage against the Athens Middle School Female squad for a reason.
 
bizzel said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
No need to make this more complex than it is. Georgia didn't need to press, Zags didn't need do throw the long pass (Daye was WIDE open) and butler didn't need to tackle the guy. Under that rationale, which is exactly what happened in the most basic terms, it was partially GU's fault.


But if Georgia's reason for calling said press was indeed sincere, they would have wanted Gonzaga to throw the long pass in order to expose a flaw in thier press which they could fix and become a better ballclub. Taking it easy oin the press defeats Georgia's supposed rationale for calling it in the first place. I am almost positive that Georgia does not scrimmage against the Athens Middle School Female squad for a reason.
Why add in a supposed rationale? Everyone can agree it was dumb to call the press. Take what happened for what happened and judge from there.
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
I'll be honest, if it was me, I would've tried to catch him and shove him into the pad underneath the basket.

WOW!
He would've bounced off of it and it would've been fine.
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlberdDen said:
t;]Whoever called that play is lucky it didn't end up costing Pargo a tailbone.

If the end result was Pargo getting hurt, placing blame for that injury on the playcaller assumes that:

1) Butler has no control over his own actions.

and/or

2) The playcaller is able to predict the future.

I disagree. It means that Butler or a similar player is going to probably commit a hard foul if he is anywhere near pargo and that anyone calling the play should've weighed that in their minds considering, you know, they could've tossed the ball to the other team (or daye) and it wouldn't have mattered. There were a lot of factors that led to pargo getting plastered (almost all of them on georgia) and you take out any of those factors and it doesn't happen. One of those factors was the play called.

OK. Then we would have to blame Felton and Few for scheduling the game; The Spokane Arena for hosting it; Gonzaga for having a basketball team; Gonzaga's basketball team for playing its way into a lead at that stage; Dr. James Naismith for inventing the game; and his parents for having him if Pargo got hurt.

The fact of the matter is: in the game of basketball nothing warrants a foul like that (Hence the ejection). Most players go thier entire career woithout committing such a foul. Accordingly, a playcaller cannot reasonably assume that the recipient of that pass will get fouled in such a manner. Yes. He may have known that Pargo would be fouled; that's the game. But for you to assume that he should have known that Pargo would be assaulted like that makes you look very unwise.
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
bizzel said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
No need to make this more complex than it is. Georgia didn't need to press, Zags didn't need do throw the long pass (Daye was WIDE open) and butler didn't need to tackle the guy. Under that rationale, which is exactly what happened in the most basic terms, it was partially GU's fault.


But if Georgia's reason for calling said press was indeed sincere, they would have wanted Gonzaga to throw the long pass in order to expose a flaw in thier press which they could fix and become a better ballclub. Taking it easy oin the press defeats Georgia's supposed rationale for calling it in the first place. I am almost positive that Georgia does not scrimmage against the Athens Middle School Female squad for a reason.
Why add in a supposed rationale? Everyone can agree it was dumb to call the press. Take what happened for what happened and judge from there.

Which is exactly what I did in my second hypothetical two posts back. Georgia deserved to get dunked on if we throw out any possible justification for calling the press at that juncture. Thus, the foul was the true heinous act, not the pass in any way.
 
You could assume all those things, but it'd be extremely unreasonable and much farther away from the incident. I'll agree, the foul was WAY too hard. Even so, I'd feel bad if i were a coach and I called that play. I don't know how you couldn't. Seriously, try making things more basic instead of more complex sometime. It's really pretty easy. If you were up seven, they were pressing, and you called the play or you hucked one to pargo instead of daye, would you feel a bit of remorse? It's like when a QB throws one up over the middle and WR gets lit up on helmet to helmet contact. Sure, most of the blame is on the defender but the QB always feels bad for putting the WR in such a position.
 
Very good subject, and actually sticking to the subject, I am impressed!!! :thumb: There are so many ways to look at both sides of this. My intent of this post is not to start a WAR here on either side, but just a few things to ponder. So if I misword anything, let me apologize in advance.

Yes, I felt the foul committed on Pargo was dirty. It should have been done in another manner than it was. I do not blame Georgia for pressing, there have been bigger miracles over the years. I do not blame Gonzaga for calling what it did. Hell I do not even blame Georgia for fouling, but that is where my understanding on both sides stops!!!!!

It appeared to me Gonzaga and Pargo's intent was a highlight game finishing in your face showtime dunk for reasons beyond me. I as a former player and later a coach, would have been very upset over that too. If you are going to do something like that, execute it with your bench damnit! Doing it with any of your studs is classless and uncalled for. I have had a few confrontations with opposing coaches on both sides of something like this in running up the score or showboating. My attitude is, if the bench players are doing the scoring and executing, I do not have a problem with it. These guys have earned that time, and a coach should never tell his bench to not play hard, or not execute.

However, that was not the situation and the actions of both teams lead to an ugly situation. As circumstances were, every Gonzaga player should have been told, when we break the press, sit on it or throw it up and let the clock run out. Georgia players should have been told if Gonzaga breaks the press, let the clock run out.

Also, one has to admit Gonzaga now has one of the best student atmospheres in the nation. Is it possible one or a few of the students said something that would upset any one GA player? Anywhere, chances are likely. Recently Gonzaga's program has come off as a little overly cocky. They are no longer Americas little darlings or underdogs. They are consistently a Top 25 program. One of the few that are not in power conferences. On EGRIZ alone there is bickering between GRIZ and ZAG fans and varying opinions of cockiness and class or lack there of. Imagine how magnified that is when a power conference out of the region plays these guys. Believe me, any power conference program wants to put the ZAGS in their place and show them a thing or 2.

I honestly feel, if Gonzaga continues to be perceived as cocky and arrogant, things like this may happen again to some extent. I pray I am wrong here, and not saying any of this was right. I feel both teams were wrong in their actions. Gonzaga is lucky this did not cost Pargo his season.

In HS and above many coaches tell their players, if they bring it to hole, foul them hard! By the looks of it, that is what Georgia's intentions were, but the way it happened turned out ugly. A few years back Doughy fouled ISU's player hard, and looked much worse than intentions were. I talked to Matt about that play, he swore to me his intentions were not to hurt anyone nor to have it look the way it did. I believe him to this day.

I am thankful Pargo was not seriously hurt in all this. I am thankful Gonzaga's season is very much intact. I pray Georgia and Gonzaga learned a lesson from this, and just maybe Gonzaga's cockiness and arrogance will tone down quite a few notches.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
I'll be honest, if it was me, I would've tried to catch him and shove him into the pad underneath the basket.

WOW!
He would've bounced off of it and it would've been fine.
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlberdDen said:
t;]Whoever called that play is lucky it didn't end up costing Pargo a tailbone.

If the end result was Pargo getting hurt, placing blame for that injury on the playcaller assumes that:

1) Butler has no control over his own actions.

and/or

2) The playcaller is able to predict the future.

I disagree. It means that Butler or a similar player is going to probably commit a hard foul if he is anywhere near pargo and that anyone calling the play should've weighed that in their minds considering, you know, they could've tossed the ball to the other team (or daye) and it wouldn't have mattered. There were a lot of factors that led to pargo getting plastered (almost all of them on georgia) and you take out any of those factors and it doesn't happen. One of those factors was the play called.

OK. Then we would have to blame Felton and Few for scheduling the game; The Spokane Arena for hosting it; Gonzaga for having a basketball team; Gonzaga's basketball team for playing its way into a lead at that stage; Dr. James Naismith for inventing the game; and his parents for having him if Pargo got hurt.

The fact of the matter is: in the game of basketball nothing warrants a foul like that (Hence the ejection). Most players go thier entire career woithout committing such a foul. Accordingly, a playcaller cannot reasonably assume that the recipient of that pass will get fouled in such a manner. Yes. He may have known that Pargo would be fouled; that's the game. But for you to assume that he should have known that Pargo would be assaulted like that makes you look very unwise.

I have to watch that video again. I wish we had the benefit of multiple angles on replay. Either way, sounds like Butler is a chump. I love the way Parago plays, and I am sure he frustrates the hell out of his opposition.
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
You could assume all those things, but it'd be extremely unreasonable and much farther away from the incident. I'll agree, the foul was WAY too hard. Even so, I'd feel bad if i were a coach and I called that play. I don't know how you couldn't. Seriously, try making things more basic instead of more complex sometime. It's really pretty easy. If you were up seven, they were pressing, and you called the play or you hucked one to pargo instead of daye, would you feel a bit of remorse? It's like when a QB throws one up over the middle and WR gets lit up on helmet to helmet contact. Sure, most of the blame is on the defender but the QB always feels bad for putting the WR in such a position.

I agree that those factors are far away from the incident; that was my point. The play caller did not commit the foul. Partially blaming him for the actions of an autonomous human being is ridiculous.

You are acting like somone who sees a dude beat his wife and says, "well, she had it coming, its partially her fault." Beating one's wife is never acceptable; fouling like that is never acceptable.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
You could assume all those things, but it'd be extremely unreasonable and much farther away from the incident. I'll agree, the foul was WAY too hard. Even so, I'd feel bad if i were a coach and I called that play. I don't know how you couldn't. Seriously, try making things more basic instead of more complex sometime. It's really pretty easy. If you were up seven, they were pressing, and you called the play or you hucked one to pargo instead of daye, would you feel a bit of remorse? It's like when a QB throws one up over the middle and WR gets lit up on helmet to helmet contact. Sure, most of the blame is on the defender but the QB always feels bad for putting the WR in such a position.

I agree that those factors are far away from the incident; that was my point. The play caller did not commit the foul. Partially blaming him for the actions of an autonomous human being is ridiculous.

You are acting like somone who sees a dude beat his wife and says, "well, she had it coming, its partially her fault." Beating one's wife is never acceptable; fouling like that is never acceptable.

don't let AG2 see this
 
Grizbacker1 said:
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
You could assume all those things, but it'd be extremely unreasonable and much farther away from the incident. I'll agree, the foul was WAY too hard. Even so, I'd feel bad if i were a coach and I called that play. I don't know how you couldn't. Seriously, try making things more basic instead of more complex sometime. It's really pretty easy. If you were up seven, they were pressing, and you called the play or you hucked one to pargo instead of daye, would you feel a bit of remorse? It's like when a QB throws one up over the middle and WR gets lit up on helmet to helmet contact. Sure, most of the blame is on the defender but the QB always feels bad for putting the WR in such a position.

I agree that those factors are far away from the incident; that was my point. The play caller did not commit the foul. Partially blaming him for the actions of an autonomous human being is ridiculous.

You are acting like somone who sees a dude beat his wife and says, "well, she had it coming, its partially her fault." Beating one's wife is never acceptable; fouling like that is never acceptable.

don't let AG2 see this

:laugh: :thumb:
 
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
You could assume all those things, but it'd be extremely unreasonable and much farther away from the incident. I'll agree, the foul was WAY too hard. Even so, I'd feel bad if i were a coach and I called that play. I don't know how you couldn't. Seriously, try making things more basic instead of more complex sometime. It's really pretty easy. If you were up seven, they were pressing, and you called the play or you hucked one to pargo instead of daye, would you feel a bit of remorse? It's like when a QB throws one up over the middle and WR gets lit up on helmet to helmet contact. Sure, most of the blame is on the defender but the QB always feels bad for putting the WR in such a position.

I agree that those factors are far away from the incident; that was my point. The play caller did not commit the foul. Partially blaming him for the actions of an autonomous human being is ridiculous.

You are acting like somone who sees a dude beat his wife and says, "well, she had it coming, its partially her fault." Beating one's wife is never acceptable; fouling like that is never acceptable.
I didn't say acceptable. No one accepted it. Make the comparison if you want, if you think they're the same. I'll disagree. But whatever, I'm done with this. If i call the play I'd feel bad. Maybe you wouldn't.

Just going to have to disagree on this. Maybe it's the difference between Gonzaga [fans] and others.
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
You could assume all those things, but it'd be extremely unreasonable and much farther away from the incident. I'll agree, the foul was WAY too hard. Even so, I'd feel bad if i were a coach and I called that play. I don't know how you couldn't. Seriously, try making things more basic instead of more complex sometime. It's really pretty easy. If you were up seven, they were pressing, and you called the play or you hucked one to pargo instead of daye, would you feel a bit of remorse? It's like when a QB throws one up over the middle and WR gets lit up on helmet to helmet contact. Sure, most of the blame is on the defender but the QB always feels bad for putting the WR in such a position.

I agree that those factors are far away from the incident; that was my point. The play caller did not commit the foul. Partially blaming him for the actions of an autonomous human being is ridiculous.

You are acting like somone who sees a dude beat his wife and says, "well, she had it coming, its partially her fault." Beating one's wife is never acceptable; fouling like that is never acceptable.
I didn't say acceptable. No one accepted it. Make the comparison if you want, if you think they're the same. I'll disagree. But whatever, I'm done with this. If i call the play I'd feel bad. Maybe you wouldn't.Just going to have to disagree on this. Maybe it's the difference between Gonzaga [fans] and others.

My point again is that since neither of these things are acceptable, and thus not universally expected, one should not have to reasonably take them into consideration when making playcalling or marital decisions. It is the same; the exact same. You blame people for the actions of other people. I don't. It's cool.

And before you take the holier than thou position [bolded], remember that you said you would have shoved Pargo into the basket support. I wouldn't do that; and I wouldn't feel bad for calling the play. You would and would.

I can't believe you'd feel bad for calling the play and not for actually mugging Pargo. :clap:
 
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
You could assume all those things, but it'd be extremely unreasonable and much farther away from the incident. I'll agree, the foul was WAY too hard. Even so, I'd feel bad if i were a coach and I called that play. I don't know how you couldn't. Seriously, try making things more basic instead of more complex sometime. It's really pretty easy. If you were up seven, they were pressing, and you called the play or you hucked one to pargo instead of daye, would you feel a bit of remorse? It's like when a QB throws one up over the middle and WR gets lit up on helmet to helmet contact. Sure, most of the blame is on the defender but the QB always feels bad for putting the WR in such a position.

I agree that those factors are far away from the incident; that was my point. The play caller did not commit the foul. Partially blaming him for the actions of an autonomous human being is ridiculous.

You are acting like somone who sees a dude beat his wife and says, "well, she had it coming, its partially her fault." Beating one's wife is never acceptable; fouling like that is never acceptable.
I didn't say acceptable. No one accepted it. Make the comparison if you want, if you think they're the same. I'll disagree. But whatever, I'm done with this. If i call the play I'd feel bad. Maybe you wouldn't.Just going to have to disagree on this. Maybe it's the difference between Gonzaga [fans] and others.

My point again is that since neither of these things are acceptable, and thus not universally expected, one should not have to reasonably take them into consideration when making playcalling or marital decisions. It is the same; the exact same. You blame people for the actions of other people. I don't. It's cool.

And before you take the holier than thou position [bolded], remember that you said you would have shoved Pargo into the basket support. I wouldn't do that; and I wouldn't feel bad for calling the play. You would and would.

I never said most of the blame belongs on few. I didn't. I never said I would blame others if I shoved pargo, which I wouldn't have felt bad for if he just got rubbed in there a little. Almost all the blame goes on whoever shoved him. I know that. Even with all that, if the completely unnecessary play goes uncalled, nothing happens. Therefore, I'd feel bad. Just the way it is.

I'm not trying to blame people. I'm saying if I'm the coach I feel a little bit of accountability. You wouldn't. It's cool. I'd prefer not to put players at the risk of some guy who I know may very well cream my guy. You rather take the risk and go for a dunk. That's the difference. It was an unwarranted foul, I know. But it was an unwarranted an unnecessary play too.
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
CDAGRIZ said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
CDAGRIZ said:
I agree that those factors are far away from the incident; that was my point. The play caller did not commit the foul. Partially blaming him for the actions of an autonomous human being is ridiculous.

You are acting like somone who sees a dude beat his wife and says, "well, she had it coming, its partially her fault." Beating one's wife is never acceptable; fouling like that is never acceptable.
I didn't say acceptable. No one accepted it. Make the comparison if you want, if you think they're the same. I'll disagree. But whatever, I'm done with this. If i call the play I'd feel bad. Maybe you wouldn't.Just going to have to disagree on this. Maybe it's the difference between Gonzaga [fans] and others.

My point again is that since neither of these things are acceptable, and thus not universally expected, one should not have to reasonably take them into consideration when making playcalling or marital decisions. It is the same; the exact same. You blame people for the actions of other people. I don't. It's cool.

And before you take the holier than thou position [bolded], remember that you said you would have shoved Pargo into the basket support. I wouldn't do that; and I wouldn't feel bad for calling the play. You would and would.

I never said most of the blame belongs on few. I didn't. I never said I would blame others if I shoved pargo, which I wouldn't have felt bad for if he just got rubbed in there a little. Almost all the blame goes on whoever shoved him. I know that. Even with all that, if the completely unnecessary play goes uncalled, nothing happens. Therefore, I'd feel bad. Just the way it is.

I'm not trying to blame people. I'm saying if I'm the coach I feel a little bit of accountability. You wouldn't. It's cool. I'd prefer not to put players at the risk of some guy who I know may very well cream my guy. You rather take the risk and go for a dunk. That's the difference. It was an unwarranted foul, I know. But it was an unwarranted an unnecessary play too.

I never said you did say or would do either of those things. All I said was that you think the playcaller should feel accountable for a player on another team's actions when what that player did is not acceptable and never expected in the game of baskeball.

I also said that it's weird how you said you would shove Pargo into the basket support, but at the same time, you think Few should be feel partially accountable if you actually did.

You can't backpedal and circle your way out of this one, Mr. Journalist.
 
They are two different "if i's". If i'm playing I shove pargo and don't really care what else happened. Really. He was there, I'm furious. He gets a face full of padding. That's just about the end of my thought process.

If I'm a coach and that happens, I analyze a lot deeper bc it affects me a lot more. My explosive floor general just got nailed and is damn lucky he didn't get TJ Forded out of a career. Of course I'm going to think... well, shit, what could've happened so that didn't happen? One of those things is me calling for a dunk.

And when I say this, I don't mean he is completely accountable or even mostly accountable. I'm saying he faces SOME accountability.

What does me being a journalism student have anything to do with it anyway Mr. Gonzaga Fan?
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
They are two different "if i's". If i'm playing I shove pargo and don't really care what else happened. Really. He was there, I'm furious. He gets a face full of padding. That's just about the end of my thought process.

If I'm a coach and that happens, I analyze a lot deeper bc it affects me a lot more. My explosive floor general just got nailed and is damn lucky he didn't get TJ Forded out of a career. Of course I'm going to think... well, shit, what could've happened so that didn't happen? One of those things is me calling for a dunk.

And when I say this, I don't mean he is completely accountable or even mostly accountable. I'm saying he faces SOME accountability.

What does me being a journalism student have anything to do with it anyway Mr. Gonzaga Fan?

But you are neither a player nor a coach and hold both opinions at the same time as a fan.

Currently then, you must beleive that if Butler would have 'given Pargo a face full of pad', he should not feel bad (you wouldn't) and Few should feel kind of bad (you would). You have already said as much, so this is not up for debate.

I think you will make a perfect journalist.
 
I'm glad that DENNY is putting the blame for a hard foul on the play caller. Kind of reminds me of a story I heard the other day.

There was this taxi cab driver that gave a drunk guy a ride home from the bar. The drunk guy gets home and gets into a fight with his wife. The man ends up killing his entire family, his wife and two kids.
Of course the taxi cab driver was sentenced to death:

He shouldn't have given the guy a ride home.

C'mon DENNY, think before you type.
 
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