GrizMusician said:
Band.
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Time to stop the whining and man-up!
- Thread starter Growler1
- Start date
Band.
Grizbacker1
Well-known member
yellowstone60 said:
obvioulsy wasn't written by DillDOH, he hasn't had a coherent thought since he discovered at about age 12 he wasn't good looking, had no athletic ability, and was going to be a short little prick his whole life. Of course he is sitting with Engstrom right now he would have you believe. Dill the douchebag is what most who know him call the little old POS.
spsyk said:
I agree that these young men (and women) must take responsibility for themselves when off campus. What the firings did do is send a strong message that their actions will have consequences....JJ and others will have to look in the mirror and realize that their actions cost two good men their livelihood and hopefully from that day forward the entire team (actions of a few, I know) will get the message. IMO that is why Engstrom pulled the plug on both, there were no substantial consequences for these actions and it set an environment of being above any rules or punishment.
In an attempt to avoid all the personality issues, I am going to respond to the initial post. I think there are some really valid points and if you step back like I did this weekend and re-evaluate the situation, you would see some positives in the situation.
Whether it changes the culture or not, at least there is the appearance of the University doing something. Part of the battle is public perception, and we were beginning to slide in that area.
By replacing Pflugrad with Delany, you get someone that both the players and the current staff are familiar with and by all accounts, very respected in all circles.
It happened prior to spring break. The players were allowed to have a practice together and regroup before having some time to let it all sink in. All interim parties were in place prior to that break, so it times out very well.
We have some very awesome leaders on this team, and I think you will the players strength and integrity shine through. Those that don't want to step up or walk away are not kids you want on your team anyways.
This team will be just fine. I hope the rest of the league tries to look past us.
Whether it changes the culture or not, at least there is the appearance of the University doing something. Part of the battle is public perception, and we were beginning to slide in that area.
By replacing Pflugrad with Delany, you get someone that both the players and the current staff are familiar with and by all accounts, very respected in all circles.
It happened prior to spring break. The players were allowed to have a practice together and regroup before having some time to let it all sink in. All interim parties were in place prior to that break, so it times out very well.
We have some very awesome leaders on this team, and I think you will the players strength and integrity shine through. Those that don't want to step up or walk away are not kids you want on your team anyways.
This team will be just fine. I hope the rest of the league tries to look past us.
AZGrizFan said:
4/2/12 Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM rape victim - Features - Montana Kaimin - University of Montana
http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/pleading-not-guilty-story-of-a-um-rape-victim-1.2820334?compArti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;… 1/8
Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM
rape victim
The sex issue
By Ali R. Murray
Published: Thursday, March 15, 2012
Updated: Thursday, March 29, 2012 16:03
It is not my fault.
It is not my fault.
It is not my fault for getting raped.
Twice.
On the University of Montana campus.
In the past four years.
By putting my name on this story, I worry people might not accept it.
I have a reputation of, well, being drunkenly promiscuous.
There is a reason for that.
Here, let me explain. I hope you understand.
Girls just wanna have fun
It was a cool, crisp fall night; the Friday night of Labor Day weekend. I was a
freshman living in Jesse Hall and all the girls on my side of the floor were going to
a fraternity ’80s party. I had partied with them at that fraternity the weekend
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Social Links4/2/12 Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM rape victim - Features - Montana Kaimin - University of Montana
http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/pleading-not-guilty-story-of-a-um-rape-victim-1.2820334?compArti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;… 2/8
before and had a blast.
It was my first college partying experience.
Well, actually, my only partying experience.
I didn’t party at all in high school. Honestly, I didn’t. I had drank maybe twice
before going to college: Once at school when I was 14 (which I got caught for)
and on my Sweet 16th at home with a few friends (worst hangover of my life). I
just didn’t see the appeal of the drinking scene, you know? Also, my older brother
didn’t drink, do drugs or get into trouble. He kept himself on the straight and
narrow and he expected the same of me because I was his sister. His respect for
me meant everything to me and I never wanted to lose it.
But on April 10, 2008, my older brother passed away.
I graduated from high school a little more than a month later. That August, I
moved up to Missoula to start my college career at UM. I had no one to hold me
responsible for my actions anymore. My mother had turned to alcohol to
suppress and cope with her grief, so, daughterlikemother, I thought alcohol
might help me deal with everything.
Anyway, my friends had left for the party without me and I said I’d catch up. I
was waiting for my roommate to get home so I could borrow an outfit from her to
wear out. When she got back to the dorm, my roommate dressed me in an off
shoulder blue shirt, paired with a supershort and tight jean skirt, leggings and
strappy black heels. I did my makeup like Olivia NewtonJohn in the last scene of
Grease — eyeliner winged out to make cat eyes with lashes that went on for
miles. Damn, I looked hot, I thought to myself. Maybe someone else will think the
same, too.
I walked to the fraternity from my dorm. After talking to the fraternity ‘bouncers’
for a second, they directed me to the basement where a rager of a neoncolored
badhair shitshow was well under way. Getting drunk and meeting new people
was all I wanted to do.
Keystone Light, Bud Light, Busch Light and cranberry vodkas. I met some great
‘people’ that night and I met them for free because I am a girl. A cute, freshman
girl that frat boys couldn’t wait to get intoxicated.
One guy I had met before. A guy who’s voice I can’t seem to forget and probably
never will.4/2/12 Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM rape victim - Features - Montana Kaimin - University of Montana
http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/pleading-not-guilty-story-of-a-um-rape-victim-1.2820334?compArti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;… 3/8
He was a friend of my best guy friend from back home. We had met at a high
school graduation party. We had discussed how we were both going to UM and
going to be in the same dorm that fall. I hadn’t seen him since that Saturday in
June.
That night, I was drunk, a hot mess and pretty much felt like I was involved in a
slutty, alcoholic version of a pinball game.
He and this other guy, who introduced himself to me seven or eight times in
about five minutes, both clearly wanted my body and my attention. Both had their
hands on me, taking turns to some extent, telling me how nice my ass was.
Drunk me, who should have thrown a bitch fit right there and told both guys to
back off, just kinda went with it instead. Call me an attention whore, but I liked it.
At 18 years old, I needed attention from guys to make me feel like I was worth
something, that I could offer society some greater good by looking hot.
I left the fraternity with my friend’s friend. I trusted my friend from back home with
my life, so I thought I could trust his friends the same. We both lived in the same
dorm. Why not walk back together? A girl can’t walk home in the dark by herself,
right? Maybe I’ll be safer this way.
At some point between Gerald and Arthur Avenues, we stopped on the sidewalk
for a makeout session. I. Am. Shit. Canned. And still thinking I’m totally fine.
My friend asked me if I wanted him to come back to my room. I said yes. After
the longest four blocks and elevator ride of my life, we both went to bed — fully
clothed, but not for long. Within minutes I was naked.
This is where my memory gets fuzzy.
I remember him fingering me. I remember giving him head. I remember saying I
wouldn’t have sex with him. I remember him telling me he wasn’t a pushy guy.
Then I hit blackout status, where I can’t tell you what happened or if my brain just
doesn’t want me to remember. I remember much later walking my friend back to
his room (Ever been in an elevator wearing a skirt without panties on? Nice
breeze, but uh, no. Not ideal.) I remember I walked back up to my room, shut the
door, changed into my pajamas and crawled into bed to go to sleep.
I woke up the next morning, hung over and sore. And I’m pretty sure I don’t need
to tell you which area of my body was hurting.4/2/12 Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM rape victim - Features - Montana Kaimin - University of Montana
http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/pleading-not-guilty-story-of-a-um-rape-victim-1.2820334?compArti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;… 4/8
Wait, what was that? I felt something in my pillowcase. It was an unopened
condom that I hadn’t put there.
I didn’t have sex last night, right? I said no, right?
My brain went into freakout mode but I asked my inner voice to quiet itself and
stop overreacting. I went out that Saturday morning and got the morning after pill
just to be safe.
I was sore until Wednesday.
I wrote it off as my ‘friend’ just being rough when he fingered me. Or something.
Keep your friends close
Fastforward a year and half. It’s the weekend before fall finals week 2009. I’m in
bed with a guy again, the first time since the ’80s party incident. I actually like this
guy and he became my boyfriend a few weeks later.
This night, however, we went as far as I thought I had gone with the ‘80s party
guy; he was fingering me.
When I woke up the next morning, I wasn’t sore at all. That’s weird. I thought I’d
be hurtin’. I hurt the last time.
Later over Christmas break, it hit me. I wasn’t a virgin anymore. I hadn’t been
since Sept. 2, 2008.
Brain trying to process realization. Operator error. Mission aborted.
I had said no. I remembered saying no.
Rape doesn’t happen to me.
I’ve been raised Roman Catholic and up until this point I didn’t believe in sex
before marriage. Or at least, that was something I wanted to wait for until I was
legitimately headoverheels in love with someone who felt the same back. I
guess I’m weird. Our society proliferates this idea that women are expected to
put out. If we don’t, we’re prudes. If we do, we’re sluts. But still, sex is an
expected part of the equation anymore. Waiting for marriage or love seems a lost
cause, but maybe I’m just a cynic.4/2/12 Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM rape victim - Features - Montana Kaimin - University of Montana
http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/pleading-not-guilty-story-of-a-um-rape-victim-1.2820334?compArti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;… 5/8
Skip to Feb. 13, 2010. My boyfriend and I had broken up by now. I was still really
good friends with him and his roommate. I went to a big bonfire party with his
roommate and a bunch of our friends. It was the perfect night. The stars were
beautiful. It wasn’t too cold and the fire was warm.
Of course, the beer and tequila I was drinking made for an excellent extra layer of
warmth as I stood on the snowpacked earth with my friends.
This party was outside Missoula, and we all headed back home (aka Taco Bell)
around 2:30ish. After eating, we went back to my friend’s apartment where we
debated whether to finish my pint of Jose Cuervo leftover from the weekend
before. My ex’s roommate wanted to do shots. There was enough left for two or
three each. My friend, who’s apartment we were standing in, said it would be a
waste since it was already 4 a.m.
I still wanted to party. I suggested going back to the dorm room of my ex’s
roommate to do the shots. (My ex had moved out a few weeks before.) We did.
When we got to his room, I was like, “Dude, I don’t know. It would be a waste.
Maybe we should just save the shots for later.”
I don’t really remember what happened next, but I decided to stay the night. In
his bed. Without my pants, wearing only my bra, shirt and panties.
I remember crawling into his bed and telling myself, “You aren’t attracted to him,
he’s your ex’s best friend, and he said nothing is going to happen. And his bed is
so comfy. Bonus!”
Then he started kissing the back of my neck. Then I’m on top of him and we’re
making out. One thing led to another and I’m without my panties. He asked me if
I wanted to have sex. I said no.
He said, “You’ll do it to my fingers, why is my dick so different? I just want to see
what it feels like.”
I verbally said yes, and physically was still saying no. Sex wasn’t working for me
and he didn’t seem to get that. I don’t really know how to explain it, but have you
ever done something thinking the whole time that you don’t want to be doing it but
you do it anyway?
I knew why I didn’t want to be doing what I was doing. I wasn’t in love with the
guy having sex with me. I felt guilty, like I was betraying myself and my ex.4/2/12 Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM rape victim - Features - Montana Kaimin - University of Montana
http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/pleading-not-guilty-story-of-a-um-rape-victim-1.2820334?compArti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;… 6/8
I asked him to get off me. He said just a little bit more.
I asked to put my underwear back on. He kept going.
I don’t remember what happened next. He wasn’t wearing a condom and I wasn’t
on the Pill. I got out of his bed because it was just too awkward to stay. I found
my underwear and put my pants back on. I forgot to put on my socks. Who
knows where they are now.
My ex’s friend offered me another jacket because the one I had on was really
light. My drunk blanket was still in full heat mode so I told him I was fine.
He walked me back to the sorority I was living in. I asked him desperately not to
tell my ex what had transpired between us. He said he wouldn’t.
Happy Valentine’s Day to me.
Self destruct mode
Sex stopped meaning anything to me after this happened. I felt like it’s a
“damned if you do, damned if you don’t” thing. So even if, in my deepest self, I
thought what I was doing was wrong, I’d do it anyway. I felt so guilty about what
happened because I let it happen. Because I said yes. Because I didn’t fight.
Because sober me knew what I did was wrong. Because it didn’t mean anything
to anyone, right?
In both of these situations, I felt like what happened was my fault. I felt like I was
to blame because of how drunk I was. Or my freshman year, because of how I
dressed that night, I was “asking for it.”
Our culture teaches us the art of the hookup. The art of doing casual sex and
how things that happen while drinking don’t mean anything. It has taught us that
having drunken sex is OK because it’s not supposed to mean anything in the
morning. And if it did actually mean something to one of the two involved, well
sorry. Looks like things just got awkward, despite the “We can still be friends and
everything will be the same” line.
College administrators across the nation wonder why more rapes aren’t being
reported.
Administration, hear me now: In the majority of rape cases, the victim knows their4/2/12 Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM rape victim - Features - Montana Kaimin - University of Montana
http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/pleading-not-guilty-story-of-a-um-rape-victim-1.2820334?compArti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;… 7/8
attacker. They might even be really good friends. Rape is going further physically
than one of the people involved is comfortable with. Rape is not listening, not
caring. That is why so many rapes go unreported. Victims want everything to
stay the same. They want to keep the status quo, so they can pretend nothing
happened and their lives can remain in their ‘normal’ routine.
Or the victims are embarrassed.
It feels like it’s a pretty shameful thing, you know. Like me. Honestly, I won’t be
able to tell my future husband how old I was when I lost my virginity. Or who has
my vcard, for that matter.
What a slut.
You know what that feels like? It’s like walking around with a sign stamped on
your forehead that really only you can see but you think everyone else can.
Victims don’t speak out because of this feeling. The feeling that you’re going to be
ostracized for what happened — or rather, for what they feel like they let happen.
Female victims are afraid of hearing what others might think of them if the word
gets out. We’d rather blame ourselves for the situation than believe our ‘friends’
could ever do something like this to us. We’ll shoulder the responsibility, chalk it
up to a wild drunken adventure or just a bad night all around, and then forget
about it. Pretend like we meant to do it so it becomes a part of our character. It
lowers our selfesteem. We think we’re only worth guys who treat us like that. It
freaks us out when a guy takes us home with the intention of getting us home
safely (Seriously, you don’t expect sex or something out of this? Really? Oh,
thank you ... I think?)
Picking up the pieces
The healing process — accepting that it actually happened, that I can apply the
term ‘rape victim’ to myself — is unreal. Rape is less complicated than I thought it
was, less complicated than culture led me to believe. I don’t know how to form
real emotional attachments to people anymore. I don’t want to get hurt again. I’m
getting better, but I still have a lot to process.
But, no matter the challenges I face in recovery, I have to remember: It’s not my
fault. I thought it was for almost two years. The first time someone told me
otherwise was in January 2011, when the counselor I was seeing said what4/2/12 Pleading not guilty: Story of a UM rape victim - Features - Montana Kaimin - University of Montana
http://www.montanakaimin.com/features/pleading-not-guilty-story-of-a-um-rape-victim-1.2820334?compArti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;… 8/8
happened during my sophomore year wasn’t my fault. She told me it was rape. I
looked at her in disbelief, but then it all made sense. My level of intoxication might
have furthered the situation, yes, but it was not the cause. I am not a slut
because I got taken advantage of. I am not a slut for putting my trust in the
wrong people.
In telling my story, I’m not looking for sympathy or the “woe is she” response. I’m
telling my story so no one else will have to go through the mental torture I’ve
gone through. The guilt and frustration I shouldn’t have gone though, but did. It
was not my fault.
It is not my fault because I drank too much.
It is not my fault because I looked ‘hot.’
It’s not my fault because casual sex has become a cultural expectation.
I have been raped twice on the University of Montana campus.
Don’t be like me.
You’re not who is guilty.
It is not your fault.
[email protected]
If you've been sexually assaulted, this link provides a list of people to talk to in
Missoula with descriptions of how they can help (questions, recovery, pressing
charges, etc.) and who will know you went to them.
ilovethecats
Well-known member
wow.
GrizMusician
Well-known member
The only thing I got out of that article is that "yes really means no." :lol:
I guess if someone actually thinks that kind of yes means yes, this program is in a lot of trouble for a long time, doesn't have daughters (or if he does is - perverted beyond understanding.) To think such a comment is even remotely is funny is pretty sick. But one thing is clear, there is no doubt why the atmosphere idiots like this create persists. Even if its one out of 100. Pretty pathetic excuse of a man when she has to be drunk before that dumbass can even get a high pressured "yes., or an even dumber ass thinks its real. I think I finally have my fill of this sick....
grizcountry420
Well-known member
ICBIJFRT
Tokyogriz
Well-known member
tnt said:
I have a great 17 year old daughter, I am not sick and your are full of it sir. This atmosphere is our culture in America moron, not UMs rape culture. Look in the mirror to find your bogey man. Start by raising your kids best you can and teaching them right from wrong. And even better reach out to your community and be a positive influence on other kids and try to teach them the same.
So many on here and in the community looking to blame Oday, Pflu, Um in general for their own failings as parents and community members. Look in the mirror if you want someone to blame.
Donaldson may have been a athlete at UM but he was a missoula product. Peltier the violent stranger rapist was a missoula product, not a UM student or athlete. There are many rapists (99.9%?) in Missoula that are NOT UM ATHLETES. If you want this shit to stop then change yourselves stop blaming others for your own lack of concern and willingness to change our society.
Tokyogriz said:
Guess I should have included this quote:
GrizMusician said:
If you think thats Okay, Tokyo, go for it. But the fact is most decent people do agree with the Kaiman article.iF replacing some leadership helps, they are okay with that too. A far as what I do..... I have had a houseful of victims (foster girls) over the last 40 years (only two presently) who were the victims of both parents who thought teens could "work it out themselves" and a culture that thought sex was a recreational activity and the girl a challenge/conquest.
No better place to start than a University where the athletes are supposed to "Representative" of the school and the leaders who set the tone.
BTW make sure none of these guys try these antics in Kansas. It (date rape) is a mandatory 20 years (hard time) And one of those girls I mentioned growing up in our home would be one of the judges down there. ("I thought she meant yes doesn't cut it She also went through school down there on an athletic scholarship and played professionally afterward - tennis) As I recall use of alcohol by any under-aged athlete was ground for dismissal attending a party where it was at was the just shy of the same.
Tokyogriz
Well-known member
The Kaiman article is one gals view on a drunken episode from her own admission. If both people are intoxicated and considering the nature of her own admission getting into bed in her panties with a guy while both were drunk the TRUTH may not exactly be what she claims. The thing is people often "Remember" or "Interpret" events that happened when they were drunk very differently than another person at the same event.
It would take very little for her version of events to not be the rape she claims. I am not saying it was not, I was not there. But this "Case" if she chose to pursue it would be mighty tough to actually prove. How read everything she wrote and conclude she was raped with 100% certainty? It would be impossible really unless you just assume everything a woman says about a man is true no matter what evidence or lack thereoff.
What we have now at UM is the Guilty until proven innocent for all athletes. If the guy in the Kaiman case was an athlete he could never actually prove his innocence even if it was true. Therefore he gets punished on a womans say so without due process. This is as much a travesty on our American life as the crime of rape is.
It would take very little for her version of events to not be the rape she claims. I am not saying it was not, I was not there. But this "Case" if she chose to pursue it would be mighty tough to actually prove. How read everything she wrote and conclude she was raped with 100% certainty? It would be impossible really unless you just assume everything a woman says about a man is true no matter what evidence or lack thereoff.
What we have now at UM is the Guilty until proven innocent for all athletes. If the guy in the Kaiman case was an athlete he could never actually prove his innocence even if it was true. Therefore he gets punished on a womans say so without due process. This is as much a travesty on our American life as the crime of rape is.
GrizMusician
Well-known member
This thread has gone full retard. :lol:
Growler, if you are still kicking I want to thank you for assisting me with the hard job of stopping my alcohol abuse. I have had two severe liver pulls all because of the recent turn of events in Griz country. The filthy and dirty rape charges and the fired men with more fall out coming was simply more than I could stand. Makes me want a drink as I write this. In any event I am going into seclusion friday and staying away from this evil situation for a few weeks.
Yo Growler have a cool one for me. And thanks again!
Yo Growler have a cool one for me. And thanks again!
