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The real details in the "unsealed document" - shocking
- Thread starter BWahlberg
- Start date
Well, the rule PR found on Wikipedia was consistent with my recollection, so I'll take it. If you want to spend the money to log into Westlaw and find the rule (just so we can say we used a "real" legal research tool), be my guest.bearister said:
You're right that the MT rules of evidence probably don't apply in the student conduct hearing, but they would apply in a criminal trial, if there ever is one. I. Believe that's the point PR was making in the post I responded to).
Tokyogriz
Well-known member
mtgrizrule said:
Fire Engstrom and have Oday fulfull his contract he is getting paid for. He is on the payroll for the entire next year at the sum of $155,000. Make him earn it, then review his performance as was suppose to happen last year in January and decide to renew or not.
Pflu didnt deserve to get fired either but it kind of sounds like he is moving on. Oday is a Montanan through and through.
Can a new governor can the chair of the BOR, or does he have to wait until one of the regent's term is up, appoint a new one, make the new appointee the chair while demoting the incumbent? In other words, could we possibly have a new BOR chair by January.
Wait... I should be talking about the commish of higher education. Does he serve at the gov's pleasure, and if the new gov isn't pleasured, can Christian be canned?
Wait... I should be talking about the commish of higher education. Does he serve at the gov's pleasure, and if the new gov isn't pleasured, can Christian be canned?
Wikipedia is great, it's peer review if something is not correct you can fix it.bearister said:
MTOutsider
Well-known member
"Wikipedia is great, it's peer review if something is not correct you can fix it."
So what you are saying is Wiki doesn't mean diddly till its gone thru pier review 20 times.
So what you are saying is Wiki doesn't mean diddly till its gone thru pier review 20 times.
This takes the cake as the worst offseason ever! Words can't describe the variety of emotions iv felt during this roller coaster ride.
BigPawzSharpClawz
Well-known member
PhxGriz said:
These people are someones children STOP speculating unless you were in the room...it hurts everyone! Throwing opinions out there like you had a video camera...burden of proof??? Whatever happen to that in this country. These are the times I despise technology! Try using the term "In my Opinion..."
RE has done a lot of unnecessary damage to the UM football program in self-preservation, but if he really had an agenda to destroy UM football, he would not have appointed Mick Delaney interim HC, probably the only guy around who is capable of salvaging the program as we know it. Some people here are giving RE far too much strategic credit. He is reacting (poorly); not proacting.
kemajic said:
his moves are hardly 'reactions'. they've been considered for at least half a year. the jury is out on whether they were good moves, bad moves, or somewhere between the two. as of now, i'd rate them as probably bad, but the jury is not entirely out yet. if five years from now the griz are still winning consistently and are without all the negative non-football news about football players, this move will look very good. if not, not.
it does indeed sound like foley and some of the other 'retirements', etc, were long in coming. maybe that was the same for o'day and a certain qb. who knows (other than those who are convinced they do).
The firings of O'Day and Pflu were not considered for a "half year". The hiring of Delaney as the interim coach were not considered for a "half year". The hiring of an independent investigator were not considered for a "half year". I hope that the decision to change to the lower preponderance standard after an incident and during the course of the related university proceeding was not considered for a "half year". While some have indicated that Foley may have been in the process of being moved out, although in point of fact his position and title had already changed, and the dean had supposedly said earlier that he was retiring, I see little that has been done by Engstrom that wasn't "reactive".
My view is that future incidents involving athletes will or would have been exactly the same, had O'Day and Pflu remained in their positions. If in 5 years the team is winning and the number of incidents is low, I still believe the negative impact on fund-raising, the reputation of UM, and the level of confidence in Engstrom will still be significant. Engstrom has caused most of nos. 1 and 3. He has contributed to no. 2, but not caused much of it. There are many people (including people important to UM) in the greater UM community and the state who will never like and support Engstrom over some of the things he has done. If UM football is able to remain strong, it will be in spite of Engstrom, not because of anything he was done.
My view is that future incidents involving athletes will or would have been exactly the same, had O'Day and Pflu remained in their positions. If in 5 years the team is winning and the number of incidents is low, I still believe the negative impact on fund-raising, the reputation of UM, and the level of confidence in Engstrom will still be significant. Engstrom has caused most of nos. 1 and 3. He has contributed to no. 2, but not caused much of it. There are many people (including people important to UM) in the greater UM community and the state who will never like and support Engstrom over some of the things he has done. If UM football is able to remain strong, it will be in spite of Engstrom, not because of anything he was done.
Grizbacker1
Well-known member
argh! said:
The jury is out, but not entirely out? argh, are you back on the sauce again?
Anybody who thinks Engstrom's athletic department escapades were actions carefully conceived over a lengthy period of time needs to reexamine the facts. There's no way to tell when he first got that bee in his bonnet, but the execution suggests an emotional epiphany run wild. (1) Nobody convenes a termination meeting with both parties in attendance, and (2) you don't execute it without one of your minions in attendance to verify details of the proceedings when your actions are destined to be questioned in court or in negotiations with the individuals involved. (3) The late timing, six months prior to fall practice, suggests that no thought was given to the need for an orderly posting of the vacant positions at a time when a meaningful search could have been effected closer to the conclusion of the just concluded football season when people are available (4) And how short-sighted was it ignore the reality of the rights of O'Day and Pflu who continue to receive pay for another year following termination. What we have is an accumulation of evidence, as if any more were needed, that Engstrom is a loose cannon who puts chippy personal emotion ahead of good sense.
And a lingering question, where was eagle beagle Aronofsky during all of this? Did Ol' Royce counsel with him before these fatal faux pas? It seems unlikely. And finally, several insiders confirm that Senor Presidente did not approach Mick Delaney until after the blood-letting. So was this all a temporary mental abberation or just a precursor of the kind of muddled action we can continue to see out of Main Hall? I think we all know the answer to that. And unfortunately we are looking at a badly-tainted BOR - which precipitated this mess - to right the badly listing UM ship. Till then Captain Queeg remains in command.
And a lingering question, where was eagle beagle Aronofsky during all of this? Did Ol' Royce counsel with him before these fatal faux pas? It seems unlikely. And finally, several insiders confirm that Senor Presidente did not approach Mick Delaney until after the blood-letting. So was this all a temporary mental abberation or just a precursor of the kind of muddled action we can continue to see out of Main Hall? I think we all know the answer to that. And unfortunately we are looking at a badly-tainted BOR - which precipitated this mess - to right the badly listing UM ship. Till then Captain Queeg remains in command.
Engstrom has said on several occasions, the restructuring of his cabinet an others, had been delayed 6 months because of the "rape issue" A total replacement of everyone is not unusual.
BTW talked to more than a few this weekend. I'm not sure that the release of douments may have had the effect of stirring up the frenzy Mr. Paoli was hoping for.
Commonly I heard sympathy for the victim. She is/was acting just as a victim normally does. They often question whether or not it was their fault, and what they could have done to avoid it.
Her right to change her mind (ie having/not having relations) has been affirmed.
Couture understood better than anyone what she had been through and was going through and concerned himself (and the "investigation") to only what happened in the bedroom.
Despite all the mess around lawyers, administrators etc. the honor court made a right decision.
The problem is still a a growing number of folks believe No means No and a girl can say no at any time. There are still a group who believe no doesn't mean no but rather maybe,"I'll just keep going until you change mind because I'm sooooo good, beside I just want a little fun"
Whether it rises to "Rape" and what happened in this situation even after reading the whole PDF, I'm not sure. But the one thing I'm sure of is that there will never be vindication, and commmunity support will be deeply divided. I'm sure I don't have enough facts to have an informed opinion.
BTW talked to more than a few this weekend. I'm not sure that the release of douments may have had the effect of stirring up the frenzy Mr. Paoli was hoping for.
Commonly I heard sympathy for the victim. She is/was acting just as a victim normally does. They often question whether or not it was their fault, and what they could have done to avoid it.
Her right to change her mind (ie having/not having relations) has been affirmed.
Couture understood better than anyone what she had been through and was going through and concerned himself (and the "investigation") to only what happened in the bedroom.
Despite all the mess around lawyers, administrators etc. the honor court made a right decision.
The problem is still a a growing number of folks believe No means No and a girl can say no at any time. There are still a group who believe no doesn't mean no but rather maybe,"I'll just keep going until you change mind because I'm sooooo good, beside I just want a little fun"
Whether it rises to "Rape" and what happened in this situation even after reading the whole PDF, I'm not sure. But the one thing I'm sure of is that there will never be vindication, and commmunity support will be deeply divided. I'm sure I don't have enough facts to have an informed opinion.
tnt said:
You state you are sure you don't have enough facts to have and informed opinion yet you claim the honor court made the right decision? Please do tell. I am all for law and order and am one that believed we needed more strict enforcement of punishment because football players making the front pages for the wrong reason was giving us a black eye. However, I believe in due process. I am wondering who you talked to about this? I believe you might have been stuck right in the middle of the echo chamber of those in the "know", becasue I have heard the exact opposite. If JJ did this, then let him pay for it as he should. But I don't think the honor court should have a pre-existing determination of guilt and I don't think they should not allow the accused to mount a defense. I am willing to ride this thing out before jumping on a sideline, but lets have a level playing field.
