The Illusion of FBS Opportunity: Fullerton

[RE Hammond]

Yep. Yup.

"It's an idea that Alabama coach Nick Saban seems to be behind given his answer to a question about the Big Ten, saying it's no longer going to schedule FCS opponents. Saban not only likes the idea, but he'd take it a step further."

Another piece is entitled "B1G finds an ally in Nick Saban." B1G only talked no FCS. There is more than implication here.

Saban doesn't mention FCS because it's not even on his radar screen. It's even below high school, since he recruits from high schools.

Perhaps, but, nevertheless, he didn't mention it. Mike Slive, the SEC commissioner, is well aware of FCS football. He's going to propose and take actions in the best interests of the SEC, but he knows and appreciates FCS. Slive was instrumental in formulating the upcoming FBS playoff system.

He recruits JUCO's. Again trust me. I'm looking from the inside out, not the opposite.

And, I know that Alabama was not mistaken, because they sent all written communications to the JUCO and not my home.

You still think I'm an idiot. I think you folks read a bunch of shit on the internet and talk off the top of your asses, like Corn Hole I/O. You clearly don't have real experience with this stuff. Posers. Wannabes.

Would you like to know about Montana's or Montana State's process? I know it's nothing like you would claim it to be.

 

[RE Hammond]

Saban doesn't mention FCS because it's not even on his radar screen. It's even below high school, since he recruits from high schools.

Perhaps, but, nevertheless, he didn't mention it. Mike Slive, the SEC commissioner, is well aware of FCS football. He's going to propose and take actions in the best interests of the SEC, but he knows and appreciates FCS. Slive was instrumental in formulating the upcoming FBS playoff system.

He recruits JUCO's. Again trust me. I'm looking from the inside out, not the opposite.

And, I know that Alabama was not mistaken, because they sent all written communications to the JUCO and not my home.

You still think I'm an idiot. I think you folks read a bunch of shit on the internet and talk off the top of your asses, like Corn Hole I/O. You clearly don't have real experience with this stuff. Posers. Wannabes.

Would you like to know about Montana's or Montana State's process? I know it's nothing like you would claim it to be.

Or even Mines (I freaking know, Tech). They, at least, have a sense of humor.

 

[UNDfan]

Fullerton is such a quack.

...
The interviewer is no different than the mainstream media interviewing Obama; don't ask the key questions or he won't interview you again. In this case, where is the following follow-up question: Really, Mr. Fullerton, if this is the case, then why did the Big Sky presidents decline the applications of NDSU and SDSU, programs superior those added?.
...

That statement is more delusional that what Fullerton is stating. When NDSU and SDSU were applying to the Big Sky, UND and Grand Valley State ruled the DII roost and were far stronger programs than NDSU or SDSU. NDSU hadn't had a home playoff game in 15 years, while SDSU rarely ever made the playoffs. UND would have been totally dominant in DII last decade if it wasn't for Brian Kelley - now Notre Dame - being at Grand Valley State then and winning most of the playoff games against us (think we were 2-4 vs GVSU).

Hadn't heard that either SDSU or NDSU have applied to the Big Sky lately. NDSU is now as dominant in FCS as it was in DII in the 80's. NDSU was a borderline DII playoff team when they beat the Griz in 2004.

 

[grizindabox]

CORNHOLIO: "the sky is not green"
HAMMOND: "the sky is blue"
PLAYEREP: "Hammond, you are incorrect. Cornholio did not say that, he said it is not green."

Hammond looks up.

Grizindabox, I see you more as Dick Nixon on da wall: "Are you threatening me?"

Just the same argument that Player has with everyone, just different topic. You just happen to be the one engaging him this time.

 

[uofmman1122]

Good lord, acknowledge the "edit" button.

 

[Paytonlives]

I put "Foolerton" in the same bed as Dennison...

Little to No Vision and only trying to milk the system for all they can.

 

[RE Hammond]

CORNHOLIO: "the sky is not green"
HAMMOND: "the sky is blue"
PLAYEREP: "Hammond, you are incorrect. Cornholio did not say that, he said it is not green."

Hammond looks up.

Grizindabox, I see you more as Dick Nixon on da wall: "Are you threatening me?"

Just the same argument that Player has with everyone, just different topic. You just happen to be the one engaging him this time.

That is reasonably obvious. I see him as a self-ordained, higher existing being, along the lines of Potomac. Also reasonably sure he stands in front of the mirror naked. It's probably just a matter of time before he starts to take posts apart one sentence at a time (of course, just the ones he/she can best leverage) for purposes of rebuttal.

 

[RE Hammond]

I put "Foolerton" in the same bed as Dennison...

Little to No Vision and only trying to milk the system for all they can.

Unfortunately, that is basically the majority mentality in this great land at this late date.

 

[RE Hammond]

Good lord, acknowledge the "edit" button.

Is your admonition equivalent to don't acknowledge the quote button with every post?

 

[PlayerRep]

I put "Foolerton" in the same bed as Dennison...

Little to No Vision and only trying to milk the system for all they can.

Fullerton actually has very good vision. It's just that the Windmill Chasers want something else. Fullerton also has to deal with reality and economics.

 

[grizindabox]

Found a picture of a young player rep

 

[Spanky]

I would like to see UM move to FBS, however, I don't anticipate it will happen for several years because of our lack of leadership in Main Hall and the Board of Regents. I would like to see UM in FBS for reasons as per the following: our student-athletes would compete against much better athletes and teams on a regular basis. Our fans would be able to watch more talented athletes than seen in FCS. The cloud of FCS being regarded as Division 2 would be gone. The ability to recruit more talented athletes would become reality.

 

[kemajic]

Fullerton is such a quack.

...
The interviewer is no different than the mainstream media interviewing Obama; don't ask the key questions or he won't interview you again. In this case, where is the following follow-up question: Really, Mr. Fullerton, if this is the case, then why did the Big Sky presidents decline the applications of NDSU and SDSU, programs superior those added?.
...

That statement is more delusional that what Fullerton is stating. When NDSU and SDSU were applying to the Big Sky, UND and Grand Valley State ruled the DII roost and were far stronger programs than NDSU or SDSU. NDSU hadn't had a home playoff game in 15 years, while SDSU rarely ever made the playoffs. UND would have been totally dominant in DII last decade if it wasn't for Brian Kelley - now Notre Dame - being at Grand Valley State then and winning most of the playoff games against us (think we were 2-4 vs GVSU).

Hadn't heard that either SDSU or NDSU have applied to the Big Sky lately. NDSU is now as dominant in FCS as it was in DII in the 80's. NDSU was a borderline DII playoff team when they beat the Griz in 2004.

Delusional? You should familiarize yourself with the facts. We're not talking here about DII and we're only talking about programs that formally applied to the BSC, so you can butt out the UND, Grand Valley St interjection. Even UNC had been a DII powerhouse and had NCs. NDSU and SDSU both had an FCS conf. championship under their belt while UND was still playing in a DII conference. UND only joined the Great West after NDSU and SDSU moved to the MVC. Prior to joining the MVC, after being turned down by the BSC, here are the five years preceeding records for NDSU and SDSU:

NDSU
2003 8-3
2004 8-3
2005 7-4
2006 10-1 (Great West Champions)
2007 10-1

SDSU
2003 7-4
2004 6-5
2005 6-5
2006 7-4
2007 7-4 (Great West Champions)

A pretty good package and willing to invest to grow their programs. Fullerton and the BSC presidents instead admitted Great West dormat UNC, who has gone 14-64 in the BSC. Seems they wanted bottom feeders rather than programs that might challenge the incumbents to keep up.

 

[kemajic]

I put "Foolerton" in the same bed as Dennison...

Little to No Vision and only trying to milk the system for all they can.

Fullerton actually has very good vision. It's just that the Windmill Chasers want something else. Fullerton also has to deal with reality and economics.

Vision, like a 13 member conference with a footprint spanning three time zones. That's vision and really dealing with economics.

 

[AZGrizFan]

From the al.com article quoted above.

"His suggestion IMPLIES going beyond the Big Ten’s discussion of a ban on playing teams from the Football Championship Subdivision to shutting out the lesser half of the Football Bowl Subdivision, too."

Just because the author of the article wasn't smart enough to recognize there's more than mere implication here doesn't mean it's fact. He's a journalist, not a rocket scientist.

 

[Spanky]

Fullerton is well aware that should Montana move to FBS, as we should, his league of misfits will fall apart in short order as Montana has been the primary member that has kept the conference intact. His smoke and mirrors approach has convinced Dennison and the Amish guy to remain in a sort of Division 1 conference that most on a national basis regard as Division 2. If a school like Northern Colorado departs, who gives a damn? If Montana departs, bye, bye Big Sky Conference.

 

[UNDfan]

That statement is more delusional that what Fullerton is stating. When NDSU and SDSU were applying to the Big Sky, UND and Grand Valley State ruled the DII roost and were far stronger programs than NDSU or SDSU. NDSU hadn't had a home playoff game in 15 years, while SDSU rarely ever made the playoffs. UND would have been totally dominant in DII last decade if it wasn't for Brian Kelley - now Notre Dame - being at Grand Valley State then and winning most of the playoff games against us (think we were 2-4 vs GVSU).

Hadn't heard that either SDSU or NDSU have applied to the Big Sky lately. NDSU is now as dominant in FCS as it was in DII in the 80's. NDSU was a borderline DII playoff team when they beat the Griz in 2004.

Delusional? You should familiarize yourself with the facts. We're not talking here about DII and we're only talking about programs that formally applied to the BSC, so you can butt out the UND, Grand Valley St interjection. Even UNC had been a DII powerhouse and had NCs. NDSU and SDSU both had an FCS conf. championship under their belt while UND was still playing in a DII conference. UND only joined the Great West after NDSU and SDSU moved to the MVC. Prior to joining the MVC, after being turned down by the BSC, here are the five years preceeding records for NDSU and SDSU:

NDSU
2003 8-3
2004 8-3
2005 7-4
2006 10-1 (Great West Champions)
2007 10-1

SDSU
2003 7-4
2004 6-5
2005 6-5
2006 7-4
2007 7-4 (Great West Champions)

A pretty good package and willing to invest to grow their programs. Fullerton and the BSC presidents instead admitted Great West dormat UNC, who has gone 14-64 in the BSC. Seems they wanted bottom feeders rather than programs that might challenge the incumbents to keep up.

You don't have history correct to even understand the situation.

NDSU and SDSU were begging to get into the BSC in 2003-5 for the 2005 or 2006 season. UNC got the invite and they started Big Sky play in 2006. By 2006-7, NDSU and SDSU had already been accepted into the MVFC and Summit Conference for the 2008 seasons, and to leave those two conferences would have cost each school $1 million each. The 2006 and 2007 records had no impact on any BSC decision on NDSU or SDSU whatsoever.

The 2003 NDSU team - which was entirely DII recruits - was the one that beat Montana, yet NDSU didn't make the DII playoffs. In fact, NDSU hadn't had a home playoff game since at least 1993. SDSU didn't have a home playoff game from 1990 until recently. SDSU has traditionally been a very middle of the road program. You sight those two teams records up through 2007, but fail to state that those teams were largely DII teams until 2007. You can't both degrade DII recruits (from the toughest DII league in the country at the time) and then be pushing how great NDSU and SDSU were up to 2007 with DII recruits, as you are contradicting yourself. Totally illogical.

My point is that when Big Sky Presidents were rejecting NDSU and SDSU in 2003, 2004, and 2005, they were looking at their last 10 years of football performance and not attempting to project out in the future (as well as West Coast schools not wanting them). What NDSU and SDSU did do is pull in the higher regional level recruits with full scholarships (including many that otherwise would have been preferred walk ons at Wisconsin and Minnesota). Meanwhile, by 2005 UND was losing almost all its recruiting battles with NDSU (and even for the first time with SDSU) because NDSU could offer higher scholarship levels because it was now FCS and UND didn't respond with going to a larger recruiting area because of a cheap AD that wouldn't raise the funds. The recruiting impact really didn't begin to show at UND until 2008. The recruiting situation is changing again now that UND is on par in scholarships. UND's new Indoor Practice Facility will help signficantly in turning the tables. In the 90's and early 00's, UND losing a Minnesota kid to SDSU would be almost unheard of. UND could often pull South Dakota kids that SDSU was recruiting and get them at UND.

Reviewing the previous five years to when the BSC President's made their rejection in 2004:

UND
1999 9-2 lost in first round playoff
2000 8-3 no playoff
2001 14-1 Nat Champ (beat GVSU)
2002 5-6
2003 12-2 Lost to GVSU in Nat Champ
2004 11-3 Lost in semifinal
2005 10-3 Lost to GVSU in quarters
2006 12-3 Lost to GVSU in semis
2007 10-2 Lost to GVSU in quarters

And if you are going to count Great West Championships, UND in 2011. GVSU had a number of players drafted and had one of the best coaches in the country at any level in Brian Kelley. UND's offensive line during those years was tremendous, as evidenced by Denver Bronco's Chris Kuper, who the Bronco's consider their most valuable OL man.

Meanwhile
NDSU
1999 9-2 (no playoffs)
2000 12-2 (3rd round playoff)
2001 7-3 (no playoffs)
2002 2-8 (total disaster year when DI was being pushed)
2003 8-3 (no playoffs - beat Montana - last year in DII)
2004 8-3
2005 7-4
2006 10-1 (Great West Champions)
2007 10-1 (mostly FCS recruits)

NDSU's first playoff game at home since 1993 happened three years ago at the FCS level. The FargoDome, which opened in 1993, never ever hosted a DII playoff game. Meanwhile, the Alerus hosted 11 playoff games in the six years after it opened in 2001.

SDSU
1999 8-3 (no playoffs)
2000 6-5
2001 5-6
2002 6-4
2003 7-4
2004 6-5
2005 6-5
2006 7-4
2007 7-4 (Great West Champions)

SDSU rarely made playoff appearances in DII. Guess FCS must just be so much easier to get in the playoffs than DII (DII has a lot more teams and fewer playoff spots).

 

[PlayerRep]

Very interesting, UNDFan. Thanks for laying out that information.

 

[kemajic]

If Fullerton was the influential leader and visionary that PR claims, he would have sold the NDSU/SDSU package admission to the BSC presidents. UND and USD would have followed later in the GW consolidation and we would have a higher performance conference that makes much more sense, particularly for geographic outlieer UND. It was a major failure of the BSC leadership. Today the BSC could be a 16 team conf with north and south divisions with lower travel costs and better rivalries. At least until NDSU joins the Big 10.....

North
PSU, EWU, UM, MSU, UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU

South
SacSt, ISU, Weber, UCDavis, CPSLO, NAU, SUU, UNC

Then the influential and visionary BSC commissioner could direct his energy toward the FSC playoffs, get the number back down to 16, which could enable conf. championship games. But not to be; we have Fullerton.

 

[Cats2506]

If Fullerton was the influential leader and visionary that PR claims, he would have sold the NDSU/SDSU package admission to the BSC presidents. UND and USD would have followed later in the GW consolidation and we would have a higher performance conference that makes much more sense, particularly for geographic outlieer UND. It was a major failure of the BSC leadership. Today the BSC could be a 16 team conf with north and south divisions with lower travel costs and better rivalries. At least until NDSU joins the Big 10.....

North
PSU, EWU, UM, MSU, UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU

South
SacSt, ISU, Weber, UCDavis, CPSLO, NAU, SUU, UNC

Then the influential and visionary BSC commissioner could direct his energy toward the FSC playoffs, get the number back down to 16, which could enable conf. championship games. But not to be; we have Fullerton.

20/20 hindsight :lol:

I think the Montana Schools were the only ones that voted to accept the Dakota's, at the time the primary concerns were travel expenses and taking the conference to a 9 game conference schedule. It seemed that they were viewed as a set, take both or neither. NOBODY at the time was looking to expand to a 16 team league, 9 was considered the perfect number. FCS was under the "no move up moratorium" and the landscape of DI as a whole was vastly different than it is now, the Big 10 network (2006) and the SEC/CBS media contract greatly changed the financial outlook of the top level teams and precipitated the conference shuffle that we have seen in recent years. These events of recent years have pushed the BSC to a larger conference to protect against uncertainty. None of these things were even on the radar when the conference presidents were voting to accept or decline the Dakota State Universitys into the conference.

I am not a fan of Foolerton either, but he has done a decent job of advocating what the member schools want.