The Good and the Bad

[kemajic]

Hating California? It was sunny and almost 80 degrees in San Diego today! The "haters" can hate all they want.

88, sunny...

How are taxes?

Taxes are probably higher but when you can drive to an 80 degree beach, to mountains with a snow and to the desert and dunes all in a couple of hours, it can be worth it.

Lived in San Juan Capistrano for 7 years. Loved Doheney, but Californians just kept getting in the way wherever we went. Most of the time it's tough to get 5 miles in a couple of hours. Got my kids out of there in time for them to have a normal life.

 

[rimrockgriz]

I lived in Pebble Beach one summer and had a frackin great time! Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too many people, taxes, and horrendous laws on the books. Smog blows too. However I enjoy watching some of their athletes play at Wazoo. Cali is a great place to visit, but I kiss the dirt every time I return :twocents:

 

[GrizLA]

I lived in Pebble Beach one summer and had a frackin great time! Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too many people, taxes, and horrendous laws on the books. Smog blows too. However I enjoy watching some of their athletes play at Wazoo. Cali is a great place to visit, but I kiss the dirt every time I return :twocents:

Well, if the numbers of former Montanans, Idatrash, Oregonians, and other NW folks were to return to those places, there would be millions more up there to crowd the highways, parks, schools, hospitals, etc..Yet, we welcome everyone and tax ourselves so we can have good universities that welcome the innovators and creators. We also pay taxes to the Fed so you all can claim you are "rugged individuals" whose taxes are low, kept that way because Calif and other progressive states pay to subsidize your lack of taxes and now you can claim a surplus. That's fine with us...not as much hate here along those lines.

 

[GrizDDS]

It appears that those Montanans, Idahoans, Oregonians, etc are returning to those places. Maybe it's native Californians that are leaving too.

"Negative domestic migration results when more people move from California to other states than move to California from other states. Like the dying canary in the coal mine, it's the first sign of trouble, and it's a clear indication of limited opportunity in California. It's not a new phenomenon. The U.S. Census shows that California has seen negative domestic migration in each of the past 20 years, while the state Department of Finance shows negative domestic migration in 18 of the past 20 years".

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-377207-population-migration.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GrizLA]

It appears that those Montanans, Idahoans, Oregonians, etc are returning to those places. Maybe it's native Californians that are leaving too.

"Negative domestic migration results when more people move from California to other states than move to California from other states. Like the dying canary in the coal mine, it's the first sign of trouble, and it's a clear indication of limited opportunity in California. It's not a new phenomenon. The U.S. Census shows that California has seen negative domestic migration in each of the past 20 years, while the state Department of Finance shows negative domestic migration in 18 of the past 20 years".

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-377207-population-migration.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yikes! The OC Register is still there? It is a GOP shill and long ago discredited but, let's look at that...the numbers of immigrants to California is far more in excess than the numbers who leave and many of those who do leave, are being transferred, opening or managing new businesses or plants, or simply returning home to be with family, or they simply fail at finding the right jobs. The port of LA, alone, along with Long Beach accounts for over 645,000 jobs! Frankly, the people I know who left were more than a little racist and Calif is most certainly not a place for that. Not any more. I do not see where domestic migration is an indicator of the future..sorry...by that measure, Montana will be a state of very old people, suicidal, and alcoholic with just a few kids attending schools with high meth usage, and leaving for other places...The OC REegister is a joke..Still, I would love it if 10,000,000 left...I feel lucky to live here and have been fortunate to remember the good times growing up in Butte, working at the "Con", forgetting the hard scrapple life on the Hill and making the most of what I had. See, California hate is a nice topic to exploit after the small town crap of what just transpired up there...

 

[CV Griz Fan]

I lived in Pebble Beach one summer and had a frackin great time! Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too many people, taxes, and horrendous laws on the books. Smog blows too. However I enjoy watching some of their athletes play at Wazoo. Cali is a great place to visit, but I kiss the dirt every time I return :twocents:

Well, if the numbers of former Montanans, Idatrash, Oregonians, and other NW folks were to return to those places, there would be millions more up there to crowd the highways, parks, schools, hospitals, etc..Yet, we welcome everyone and tax ourselves so we can have good universities that welcome the innovators and creators. We also pay taxes to the Fed so you all can claim you are "rugged individuals" whose taxes are low, kept that way because Calif and other progressive states pay to subsidize your lack of taxes and now you can claim a surplus. That's fine with us...not as much hate here along those lines.

California is no "utopia" that's for sure. Every area of the U.S. has it's good and bad points. I spent some time in Montana right out of High school in 1978. I worked for the U.S. National Park Service in Yellowstone Park so I frequented towns like Livingston, Bozeman and Gardner. I loved it! There were more "hippies" in Montana then than in California. Most of them seemed to be from Missoula. I have been to Missoula twice in the last six months on football related trips. Montana is beautiful. It's a great place to visit. For a SoCal kid, it's the winters and the lack of diversity that are difficult to deal with. Other than those two issues, I could probably live there.

 

[GrizLA]

I lived in Pebble Beach one summer and had a frackin great time! Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too many people, taxes, and horrendous laws on the books. Smog blows too. However I enjoy watching some of their athletes play at Wazoo. Cali is a great place to visit, but I kiss the dirt every time I return :twocents:

Well, if the numbers of former Montanans, Idatrash, Oregonians, and other NW folks were to return to those places, there would be millions more up there to crowd the highways, parks, schools, hospitals, etc..Yet, we welcome everyone and tax ourselves so we can have good universities that welcome the innovators and creators. We also pay taxes to the Fed so you all can claim you are "rugged individuals" whose taxes are low, kept that way because Calif and other progressive states pay to subsidize your lack of taxes and now you can claim a surplus. That's fine with us...not as much hate here along those lines.

California is no "utopia" that's for sure. Every area of the U.S. has it's good and bad points. I spent some time in Montana right out of High school in 1978. I worked for the U.S. National Park Service in Yellowstone Park so I frequented towns like Livingston, Bozeman and Gardner. I loved it! There were more "hippies" in Montana then than in California. Most of them seemed to be from Missoula. I have been to Missoula twice in the last six months on football related trips. Montana is beautiful. It's a great place to visit. For a SoCal kid, it's the winters and the lack of diversity that are difficult to deal with. Other than those two issues, I could probably live there.

Absolutely, it could be Idaho or Utah...ugh..I know people who moved to Hawaii and returned. I moved to Las Vegas when it was still a decent place...then to Seattle...too much rain, smugness, and parochialism..LA either opens your mind, or reinforces learned views...I have never met anyone neutral about the place...I love it...in fact, I'm driving there in about an hour...

 

[GrizDDS]

It appears that those Montanans, Idahoans, Oregonians, etc are returning to those places. Maybe it's native Californians that are leaving too.

"Negative domestic migration results when more people move from California to other states than move to California from other states. Like the dying canary in the coal mine, it's the first sign of trouble, and it's a clear indication of limited opportunity in California. It's not a new phenomenon. The U.S. Census shows that California has seen negative domestic migration in each of the past 20 years, while the state Department of Finance shows negative domestic migration in 18 of the past 20 years".

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-377207-population-migration.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yikes! The OC Register is still there? It is a GOP shill and long ago discredited but, let's look at that...the numbers of immigrants to California is far more in excess than the numbers who leave and many of those who do leave, are being transferred, opening or managing new businesses or plants, or simply returning home to be with family, or they simply fail at finding the right jobs. The port of LA, alone, along with Long Beach accounts for over 645,000 jobs! Frankly, the people I know who left were more than a little racist and Calif is most certainly not a place for that. Not any more. I do not see where domestic migration is an indicator of the future..sorry...by that measure, Montana will be a state of very old people, suicidal, and alcoholic with just a few kids attending schools with high meth usage, and leaving for other places...The OC REegister is a joke..Still, I would love it if 10,000,000 left...I feel lucky to live here and have been fortunate to remember the good times growing up in Butte, working at the "Con", forgetting the hard scrapple life on the Hill and making the most of what I had. See, California hate is a nice topic to exploit after the small town crap of what just transpired up there...

So you're saying that this trend is due in part to racism and the fact that the economy is so good in California that successful businesses are expanding into other states? I do agree with the part about many people "simply failing at finding the right jobs". That sounds like a problem for many Californians as the unemployment rate is almost 10%, one of the highest in the country. The whole Central Valley from Bakersfield up to Sac makes frequent appearances on the Most Miserable Places in the U.S. lists, right up there with Detroit and Cleveland. Stockton? San Bernardino? yikes.

My experiences living in CA have led me to the conclusion that to really enjoy CA and take advantage of the amenities that is has to offer (while, say, saving for retirement and actually living a sustainable lifestyle) one has to be wealthy... or tolerant of reaaaally crappy commutes. California has some great things going for it, obviously. Maybe most gifted state in the US in terms of geography and natural resources, UC system is the best public university system in the world without question... but even some lifelong CA residents are concerned about their future. All states face some demographic problems with the aging population, but CA may be facing some bigger ones.

It isn't some op ed piece from the OC Register, it's a well documented trend.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm#.UTKDoY6fMso" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9791411/California-suffering-unprecedented-decline-in-child-population.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GrizLA]

It appears that those Montanans, Idahoans, Oregonians, etc are returning to those places. Maybe it's native Californians that are leaving too.

"Negative domestic migration results when more people move from California to other states than move to California from other states. Like the dying canary in the coal mine, it's the first sign of trouble, and it's a clear indication of limited opportunity in California. It's not a new phenomenon. The U.S. Census shows that California has seen negative domestic migration in each of the past 20 years, while the state Department of Finance shows negative domestic migration in 18 of the past 20 years".

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-377207-population-migration.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yikes! The OC Register is still there? It is a GOP shill and long ago discredited but, let's look at that...the numbers of immigrants to California is far more in excess than the numbers who leave and many of those who do leave, are being transferred, opening or managing new businesses or plants, or simply returning home to be with family, or they simply fail at finding the right jobs. The port of LA, alone, along with Long Beach accounts for over 645,000 jobs! Frankly, the people I know who left were more than a little racist and Calif is most certainly not a place for that. Not any more. I do not see where domestic migration is an indicator of the future..sorry...by that measure, Montana will be a state of very old people, suicidal, and alcoholic with just a few kids attending schools with high meth usage, and leaving for other places...The OC REegister is a joke..Still, I would love it if 10,000,000 left...I feel lucky to live here and have been fortunate to remember the good times growing up in Butte, working at the "Con", forgetting the hard scrapple life on the Hill and making the most of what I had. See, California hate is a nice topic to exploit after the small town crap of what just transpired up there...

So you're saying that this trend is due in part to racism and the fact that the economy is so good in California that successful businesses are expanding into other states? I do agree with the part about many people "simply failing at finding the right jobs". That sounds like a problem for many Californians as the unemployment rate is almost 10%, one of the highest in the country. The whole Central Valley from Bakersfield up to Sac makes frequent appearances on the Most Miserable Places in the U.S. lists, right up there with Detroit and Cleveland. Stockton? San Bernardino? yikes.

My experiences living in CA have led me to the conclusion that to really enjoy CA and take advantage of the amenities that is has to offer (while, say, saving for retirement and actually living a sustainable lifestyle) one has to be wealthy... or tolerant of reaaaally crappy commutes. California has some great things going for it, obviously. Maybe most gifted state in the US in terms of geography and natural resources, UC system is the best public university system in the world without question... but even some lifelong CA residents are concerned about their future. All states face some demographic problems with the aging population, but CA may be facing some bigger ones.

It isn't some op ed piece from the OC Register, it's a well documented trend.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm#.UTKDoY6fMso" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9791411/California-suffering-unprecedented-decline-in-child-population.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yes, don't underestimate the number of racists or those who seem to fear anyone different from them, and yes, there are many jobs here that do indeed require education and training, that immigrants from other nations bring here. US training and most schools seem to produce something that the future really doesn't require. In the San Joaquin Valley, Imperial, etc. it is largely the result of agri business that has benefitted by NAFTA. Why pay Americans a living wage when the govt subsidizes agri business to move to Mexico or Chile? If you doubt that, you are not well informed. And, tell me one state, or city, or county that is not concerned about the future. It has always been that way. The stats and opinions are there. but the facts are the US has been hit hard by NAFTA and other such treaties, and failure to enforce laws from banking to immigration has had major consequences. Like I said, I feel lucky to live here, and while comfortable now, was penniless when I came here. Up till a month ago, I volunteered for a vet's group, even though I am opposed to militarism, and most of the fellow volunteers were born elsewhere and are doing quite well..Now, let's talk about Butte, a city living on govt programs, or Crow Agency, or Browning, or many other sad places in Montana..SEE? That goes both ways. I see you are in Neb....things there are not so well, either, once again, drought and NAFTA and reliance upon govt programs has consequences. Since the US, a whole is having leadership problems bringing societal problems along with them, I prefer to remain happily ensconced and wish millions more would leave..
alas..........

 

[GrizDDS]

It appears that those Montanans, Idahoans, Oregonians, etc are returning to those places. Maybe it's native Californians that are leaving too.

"Negative domestic migration results when more people move from California to other states than move to California from other states. Like the dying canary in the coal mine, it's the first sign of trouble, and it's a clear indication of limited opportunity in California. It's not a new phenomenon. The U.S. Census shows that California has seen negative domestic migration in each of the past 20 years, while the state Department of Finance shows negative domestic migration in 18 of the past 20 years".

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-377207-population-migration.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yikes! The OC Register is still there? It is a GOP shill and long ago discredited but, let's look at that...the numbers of immigrants to California is far more in excess than the numbers who leave and many of those who do leave, are being transferred, opening or managing new businesses or plants, or simply returning home to be with family, or they simply fail at finding the right jobs. The port of LA, alone, along with Long Beach accounts for over 645,000 jobs! Frankly, the people I know who left were more than a little racist and Calif is most certainly not a place for that. Not any more. I do not see where domestic migration is an indicator of the future..sorry...by that measure, Montana will be a state of very old people, suicidal, and alcoholic with just a few kids attending schools with high meth usage, and leaving for other places...The OC REegister is a joke..Still, I would love it if 10,000,000 left...I feel lucky to live here and have been fortunate to remember the good times growing up in Butte, working at the "Con", forgetting the hard scrapple life on the Hill and making the most of what I had. See, California hate is a nice topic to exploit after the small town crap of what just transpired up there...

So you're saying that this trend is due in part to racism and the fact that the economy is so good in California that successful businesses are expanding into other states? I do agree with the part about many people "simply failing at finding the right jobs". That sounds like a problem for many Californians as the unemployment rate is almost 10%, one of the highest in the country. The whole Central Valley from Bakersfield up to Sac makes frequent appearances on the Most Miserable Places in the U.S. lists, right up there with Detroit and Cleveland. Stockton? San Bernardino? yikes.

My experiences living in CA have led me to the conclusion that to really enjoy CA and take advantage of the amenities that is has to offer (while, say, saving for retirement and actually living a sustainable lifestyle) one has to be wealthy... or tolerant of reaaaally crappy commutes. California has some great things going for it, obviously. Maybe most gifted state in the US in terms of geography and natural resources, UC system is the best public university system in the world without question... but even some lifelong CA residents are concerned about their future. All states face some demographic problems with the aging population, but CA may be facing some bigger ones.

It isn't some op ed piece from the OC Register, it's a well documented trend.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm#.UTKDoY6fMso" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9791411/California-suffering-unprecedented-decline-in-child-population.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yes, don't underestimate the number of racists or those who seem to fear anyone different from them, and yes, there are many jobs here that do indeed require education and training, that immigrants from other nations bring here. US training and most schools seem to produce something that the future really doesn't require. In the San Joaquin Valley, Imperial, etc. it is largely the result of agri business that has benefitted by NAFTA. Why pay Americans a living wage when the govt subsidizes agri business to move to Mexico or Chile? If you doubt that, you are not well informed. And, tell me one state, or city, or county that is not concerned about the future. It has always been that way. The stats and opinions are there. but the facts are the US has been hit hard by NAFTA and other such treaties, and failure to enforce laws from banking to immigration has had major consequences. Like I said, I feel lucky to live here, and while comfortable now, was penniless when I came here. Up till a month ago, I volunteered for a vet's group, even though I am opposed to militarism, and most of the fellow volunteers were born elsewhere and are doing quite well..Now, let's talk about Butte, a city living on govt programs, or Crow Agency, or Browning, or many other sad places in Montana..SEE? That goes both ways. I see you are in Neb....things there are not so well, either, once again, drought and NAFTA and reliance upon govt programs has consequences. Since the US, a whole is having leadership problems bringing societal problems along with them, I prefer to remain happily ensconced and wish millions more would leave..
alas..........

Yeah... just saying, Callifornia is percieved to be not very family friendly. IMO, when families start moving out, or not starting families to begin with, then CA is at risk of losing the foundation of the middle class. The economic ramifications are huge. If you can afford to live and own property in LA while experiencing the best of what California has to offer while being financially sustainable, then you are indeed quite lucky to live where you do. However, I wouldn't say you speak for the average Californian. No California hating here. I like California.

 

[GrizLA]

Yikes! The OC Register is still there? It is a GOP shill and long ago discredited but, let's look at that...the numbers of immigrants to California is far more in excess than the numbers who leave and many of those who do leave, are being transferred, opening or managing new businesses or plants, or simply returning home to be with family, or they simply fail at finding the right jobs. The port of LA, alone, along with Long Beach accounts for over 645,000 jobs! Frankly, the people I know who left were more than a little racist and Calif is most certainly not a place for that. Not any more. I do not see where domestic migration is an indicator of the future..sorry...by that measure, Montana will be a state of very old people, suicidal, and alcoholic with just a few kids attending schools with high meth usage, and leaving for other places...The OC REegister is a joke..Still, I would love it if 10,000,000 left...I feel lucky to live here and have been fortunate to remember the good times growing up in Butte, working at the "Con", forgetting the hard scrapple life on the Hill and making the most of what I had. See, California hate is a nice topic to exploit after the small town crap of what just transpired up there...

So you're saying that this trend is due in part to racism and the fact that the economy is so good in California that successful businesses are expanding into other states? I do agree with the part about many people "simply failing at finding the right jobs". That sounds like a problem for many Californians as the unemployment rate is almost 10%, one of the highest in the country. The whole Central Valley from Bakersfield up to Sac makes frequent appearances on the Most Miserable Places in the U.S. lists, right up there with Detroit and Cleveland. Stockton? San Bernardino? yikes.

My experiences living in CA have led me to the conclusion that to really enjoy CA and take advantage of the amenities that is has to offer (while, say, saving for retirement and actually living a sustainable lifestyle) one has to be wealthy... or tolerant of reaaaally crappy commutes. California has some great things going for it, obviously. Maybe most gifted state in the US in terms of geography and natural resources, UC system is the best public university system in the world without question... but even some lifelong CA residents are concerned about their future. All states face some demographic problems with the aging population, but CA may be facing some bigger ones.

It isn't some op ed piece from the OC Register, it's a well documented trend.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm#.UTKDoY6fMso" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9791411/California-suffering-unprecedented-decline-in-child-population.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yes, don't underestimate the number of racists or those who seem to fear anyone different from them, and yes, there are many jobs here that do indeed require education and training, that immigrants from other nations bring here. US training and most schools seem to produce something that the future really doesn't require. In the San Joaquin Valley, Imperial, etc. it is largely the result of agri business that has benefitted by NAFTA. Why pay Americans a living wage when the govt subsidizes agri business to move to Mexico or Chile? If you doubt that, you are not well informed. And, tell me one state, or city, or county that is not concerned about the future. It has always been that way. The stats and opinions are there. but the facts are the US has been hit hard by NAFTA and other such treaties, and failure to enforce laws from banking to immigration has had major consequences. Like I said, I feel lucky to live here, and while comfortable now, was penniless when I came here. Up till a month ago, I volunteered for a vet's group, even though I am opposed to militarism, and most of the fellow volunteers were born elsewhere and are doing quite well..Now, let's talk about Butte, a city living on govt programs, or Crow Agency, or Browning, or many other sad places in Montana..SEE? That goes both ways. I see you are in Neb....things there are not so well, either, once again, drought and NAFTA and reliance upon govt programs has consequences. Since the US, a whole is having leadership problems bringing societal problems along with them, I prefer to remain happily ensconced and wish millions more would leave..
alas..........

Yeah... just saying, Callifornia is percieved to be not very family friendly. IMO, when families start moving out, or not starting families to begin with, then CA is at risk of losing the foundation of the middle class. The economic ramifications are huge. If you can afford to live and own property in LA while experiencing the best of what California has to offer while being financially sustainable, then you are indeed quite lucky to live where you do. However, I wouldn't say you speak for the average Californian. No California hating here. I like California.

I know all that, but remember, California is substantially larger than Montana in area, with more mountains, more beach and more empty lands. Take away the Bay area, and Coastal SoCal, and you have a giant area with the population of Washington...it isn't all LA or SF or SD...I like Hanford, myself, and Mendocino..and have a place in Palm Springs...not crowded here or in those places and not expensive...can people judge Montana by Missoula?

 

[CrunchGriz]

So you're saying that this trend is due in part to racism and the fact that the economy is so good in California that successful businesses are expanding into other states? I do agree with the part about many people "simply failing at finding the right jobs". That sounds like a problem for many Californians as the unemployment rate is almost 10%, one of the highest in the country. The whole Central Valley from Bakersfield up to Sac makes frequent appearances on the Most Miserable Places in the U.S. lists, right up there with Detroit and Cleveland. Stockton? San Bernardino? yikes.

My experiences living in CA have led me to the conclusion that to really enjoy CA and take advantage of the amenities that is has to offer (while, say, saving for retirement and actually living a sustainable lifestyle) one has to be wealthy... or tolerant of reaaaally crappy commutes. California has some great things going for it, obviously. Maybe most gifted state in the US in terms of geography and natural resources, UC system is the best public university system in the world without question... but even some lifelong CA residents are concerned about their future. All states face some demographic problems with the aging population, but CA may be facing some bigger ones.

It isn't some op ed piece from the OC Register, it's a well documented trend.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm#.UTKDoY6fMso" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9791411/California-suffering-unprecedented-decline-in-child-population.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yes, don't underestimate the number of racists or those who seem to fear anyone different from them, and yes, there are many jobs here that do indeed require education and training, that immigrants from other nations bring here. US training and most schools seem to produce something that the future really doesn't require. In the San Joaquin Valley, Imperial, etc. it is largely the result of agri business that has benefitted by NAFTA. Why pay Americans a living wage when the govt subsidizes agri business to move to Mexico or Chile? If you doubt that, you are not well informed. And, tell me one state, or city, or county that is not concerned about the future. It has always been that way. The stats and opinions are there. but the facts are the US has been hit hard by NAFTA and other such treaties, and failure to enforce laws from banking to immigration has had major consequences. Like I said, I feel lucky to live here, and while comfortable now, was penniless when I came here. Up till a month ago, I volunteered for a vet's group, even though I am opposed to militarism, and most of the fellow volunteers were born elsewhere and are doing quite well..Now, let's talk about Butte, a city living on govt programs, or Crow Agency, or Browning, or many other sad places in Montana..SEE? That goes both ways. I see you are in Neb....things there are not so well, either, once again, drought and NAFTA and reliance upon govt programs has consequences. Since the US, a whole is having leadership problems bringing societal problems along with them, I prefer to remain happily ensconced and wish millions more would leave..
alas..........

Yeah... just saying, Callifornia is percieved to be not very family friendly. IMO, when families start moving out, or not starting families to begin with, then CA is at risk of losing the foundation of the middle class. The economic ramifications are huge. If you can afford to live and own property in LA while experiencing the best of what California has to offer while being financially sustainable, then you are indeed quite lucky to live where you do. However, I wouldn't say you speak for the average Californian. No California hating here. I like California.

I know all that, but remember, California is substantially larger than Montana in area, with more mountains, more beach and more empty lands. Take away the Bay area, and Coastal SoCal, and you have a giant area with the population of Washington...it isn't all LA or SF or SD...I like Hanford, myself, and Mendocino..and have a place in Palm Springs...not crowded here or in those places and not expensive...can people judge Montana by Missoula?

Montana - 147,042 sq mi
California - 163,696 sq mi


Not really that much bigger, actually.

 

[GrizDDS]

So you're saying that this trend is due in part to racism and the fact that the economy is so good in California that successful businesses are expanding into other states? I do agree with the part about many people "simply failing at finding the right jobs". That sounds like a problem for many Californians as the unemployment rate is almost 10%, one of the highest in the country. The whole Central Valley from Bakersfield up to Sac makes frequent appearances on the Most Miserable Places in the U.S. lists, right up there with Detroit and Cleveland. Stockton? San Bernardino? yikes.

My experiences living in CA have led me to the conclusion that to really enjoy CA and take advantage of the amenities that is has to offer (while, say, saving for retirement and actually living a sustainable lifestyle) one has to be wealthy... or tolerant of reaaaally crappy commutes. California has some great things going for it, obviously. Maybe most gifted state in the US in terms of geography and natural resources, UC system is the best public university system in the world without question... but even some lifelong CA residents are concerned about their future. All states face some demographic problems with the aging population, but CA may be facing some bigger ones.

It isn't some op ed piece from the OC Register, it's a well documented trend.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm#.UTKDoY6fMso" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9791411/California-suffering-unprecedented-decline-in-child-population.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yes, don't underestimate the number of racists or those who seem to fear anyone different from them, and yes, there are many jobs here that do indeed require education and training, that immigrants from other nations bring here. US training and most schools seem to produce something that the future really doesn't require. In the San Joaquin Valley, Imperial, etc. it is largely the result of agri business that has benefitted by NAFTA. Why pay Americans a living wage when the govt subsidizes agri business to move to Mexico or Chile? If you doubt that, you are not well informed. And, tell me one state, or city, or county that is not concerned about the future. It has always been that way. The stats and opinions are there. but the facts are the US has been hit hard by NAFTA and other such treaties, and failure to enforce laws from banking to immigration has had major consequences. Like I said, I feel lucky to live here, and while comfortable now, was penniless when I came here. Up till a month ago, I volunteered for a vet's group, even though I am opposed to militarism, and most of the fellow volunteers were born elsewhere and are doing quite well..Now, let's talk about Butte, a city living on govt programs, or Crow Agency, or Browning, or many other sad places in Montana..SEE? That goes both ways. I see you are in Neb....things there are not so well, either, once again, drought and NAFTA and reliance upon govt programs has consequences. Since the US, a whole is having leadership problems bringing societal problems along with them, I prefer to remain happily ensconced and wish millions more would leave..
alas..........

Yeah... just saying, Callifornia is percieved to be not very family friendly. IMO, when families start moving out, or not starting families to begin with, then CA is at risk of losing the foundation of the middle class. The economic ramifications are huge. If you can afford to live and own property in LA while experiencing the best of what California has to offer while being financially sustainable, then you are indeed quite lucky to live where you do. However, I wouldn't say you speak for the average Californian. No California hating here. I like California.

I know all that, but remember, California is substantially larger than Montana in area, with more mountains, more beach and more empty lands. Take away the Bay area, and Coastal SoCal, and you have a giant area with the population of Washington...it isn't all LA or SF or SD...I like Hanford, myself, and Mendocino..and have a place in Palm Springs...not crowded here or in those places and not expensive...can people judge Montana by Missoula?

I have a deep appreciation for the state, both culturally and geographically. I also appreciate that California has a lot of factors not working in its favor as well, so when someone says that it's not for them I don't assume that they are racist, uncultured, agoraphobic wing nuts. I was just citing the negative domestic migration as an example.