The future of FCS football

[AZGrizFan]

...while i agree that if we move up the sooner the better, but how can you say we're capable of moving up when we don't have the money to move up?

You're forgetting that many of the move-up-now crowd believe at least one of the following:

A) the move pays for itself in increased revenue

B) the university already has the money, but is hiding/redirecting it through a complex shell game

C) it doesn't really cost that much, it is possible to be competitive on the cheap i.e. with minimal or no increase in salaries, facility improvements, etc.

D) it doesn't matter how much it costs or if the program is competitive- as long as Montana is "competing at the highest level"

E) somehow it will be great for the basketball program and that we should care about basketball

F) sophisticated sports fans will throw huge quantities of cash at the athletic department once Montana is playing nationally recognized powerhouse programs in Wa-Griz- these fans are currently sitting on their hoards of cash waiting for the day when a superior product is offered up to them

All legitimate "complaints" of the move-up crowd, and all solvable if we had leadership that had any sort of vision.

 

[AZGrizFan]

It's sad to me that people in Montana feel limited just because they are from Montana. Small time approach that sadly leads people to under estimate themselves and not take full advantage of there full potential.

:clap: :clap:

 

[FCS Go!]

You're forgetting that many of the move-up-now crowd believe at least one of the following:

A) the move pays for itself in increased revenue

If this isn't the case, how do so many teams with revenues drastically less than Montana's succeed -- at least financially -- at the FBS level, and why are so many more who make substantially less than UM looking to make the move? And finally, if there isn't enough revenue at the next level, why have we NEVER seen a team move down?

If there really isn't enough revenue at the next level, schools -- particularly in the current economic climate with nearly every state facing budget shortfalls -- would be begging to come back. Since it's not happened even ONCE, it's reasonable to assume the money is there.

I would answer your points in a couple of ways. One, financial success is defined differently by different schools- losing an acceptable amount of money is OK for some programs because of the prestige of FBS ball or roughly breaking even is OK for many programs. Losing money doesn't seem like an acceptable outcome for Montana, at least according to what I've read/heard regarding the BOR & UM Admin's opinions on the financial end of things.

Secondly, ideas about an overall successful move up differ greatly. Boise St yes. UConn yes (though due to riding on the BB team's coattails). Nevada not yet. Troy, Marshall, W. Kentucky, Ark St, Idaho, LA Tech etc have not had a successful move up- at least how I would define success for an FBS program. These schools are underfunded(noncompetitive) in terms of coaching salaries, facilities, recruiting- everything and it shows on the field. I don't want to see Montana try to do it in a similarly half-assed way and I think a lot of other fans would agree. All of the above mentioned loser-schools would vehemently argue that they are a success though. Maybe GrizNation would be fine with the same.

Incidentally I can think of two teams that have moved down but I don't think they are relevant to UM's case in any way. McNeese St technically moved down in 1978 when I-AA was created. FAMU abruptly cancelled their move up a few years ago but we all now what a train wreck their school is.

 

[OptimusPrime]

You're forgetting that many of the move-up-now crowd believe at least one of the following:

A) the move pays for itself in increased revenue

If this isn't the case, how do so many teams with revenues drastically less than Montana's succeed -- at least financially -- at the FBS level, and why are so many more who make substantially less than UM looking to make the move? And finally, if there isn't enough revenue at the next level, why have we NEVER seen a team move down?

If there really isn't enough revenue at the next level, schools -- particularly in the current economic climate with nearly every state facing budget shortfalls -- would be begging to come back. Since it's not happened even ONCE, it's reasonable to assume the money is there.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/06/22_college_football_programs_m.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

revenue and expenses shows that 22 Football Bowl Subdivision schools made money in 2009-10

The net operating results show FBS schools are losing nearly $9.5 million on average, compared with FCS schools that are losing slightly more than $9.1 million and non-football schools at approximately $8.6 million

The median net surplus of the 22 moneymaking athletic departments was roughly $7.4 million, while the median net deficit for the other 98 FBS schools was $11.3 million.

So, in one year, according to that article posted earlier in the month on here, FBS schools went from 22 schools that made a profit to 100. :-o :-o

 

[EverettGriz]

Those dollar figures are football only, and are dubious because of the various ways "institutional support" is measured.

If the money wasn't there, teams wouldn't move up, they'd move down.

As it is, even using those figures, it appears moving up only costs a small fraction of the total expenses anyway. That minor difference between FCS and FBS would MORE than be made up with with conference money, additional advertising revenue, NCAA Basketball revenue, etc.

As OG says, it's truly sad that those from Montana think they'll small and can't run with the big dogs simply because they're from Montana.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Those dollar figures are football only, and are dubious because of the various ways "institutional support" is measured.

If the money wasn't there, teams wouldn't move up, they'd move down.

As it is, even using those figures, it appears moving up only costs a small fraction of the total expenses anyway. That minor difference between FCS and FBS would MORE than be made up with with conference money, additional advertising revenue, NCAA Basketball revenue, etc.

What conference does the premier school in the west go?

 

[EverettGriz]

Mountain West.

Until the shakeup comes. Then I'd say all of the conferences will get rebranded anyhow, so it really doesn't matter much.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Mountain West.

Until the shakeup comes. Then I'd say all of the conferences will get rebranded anyhow, so it really doesn't matter much.

They have 10 teams in the upcoming future. If they want to go to 12, NMSU and Idaho would be the only other western teams that are FBS that could join. Would Montana go ahead of them?

 

[EverettGriz]

Mountain West.

Until the shakeup comes. Then I'd say all of the conferences will get rebranded anyhow, so it really doesn't matter much.

They have 10 teams in the upcoming future. If they want to go to 12, NMSU and Idaho would be the only other western teams that are FBS that could join. Would Montana go ahead of them?

I can't answer that. I certainly would take Montana before I'd take Idaho, and probably before NMSU. Would the Mtn West? Who the hell knows. But I'd be willing to bet a fairly large sum that they'd jump at the opportunity to take Montana no matter when they could get them.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Mountain West.

Until the shakeup comes. Then I'd say all of the conferences will get rebranded anyhow, so it really doesn't matter much.

They have 10 teams in the upcoming future. If they want to go to 12, NMSU and Idaho would be the only other western teams that are FBS that could join. Would Montana go ahead of them?

I can't answer that. I certainly would take Montana before I'd take Idaho, and probably before NMSU. Would the Mtn West? Who the hell knows. But I'd be willing to bet a fairly large sum that they'd jump at the opportunity to take Montana no matter when they could get them.

As previously stated, since the MW took SJSU, I would have to imagine they would be more willing to take Idaho and NMSU since UNM is already a member and Idaho is already FBS.
I think this could be moot anyways because I'm wondering if the Power 6 Conferences will break off to have their own league and the low level FBS and FCS schools will make their own.

 

[kemajic]

Incidentally I can think of two teams that have moved down but I don't think they are relevant to UM's case in any way. McNeese St technically moved down in 1978 when I-AA was created. FAMU abruptly cancelled their move up a few years ago but we all now what a train wreck their school is.

McNeese moved nowhere. Their conference as a whole, the Southland, was reclassified as 1AA in 1982. So try again to come up with a single relevant example of a program that decided FCS was better for them than FBS.

 

[GrizLA]

:clap: :thumb:

We have a good coach, so that is a beginning. Time to make a change and recruit a new president via a national search, not the typical UM search of recent years. Recruit an individual that will guide our university in all areas, including athletics. Someone with vision that can make changes when necessary, including athletic conference affiliation. Next, conduct a national search for AD..again, a true national search, not the typical Dennison back room search. The regents have their work cut out for them....

+1

 

[TxGriz]

Montana is similar to Wyoming and Nebraska, in that the whole state is a fan base and media market, the difference is there are two institutions, but in spite of that it can work. They've been doing it in Wyoming for decades.

 

[FCS Go!]

Incidentally I can think of two teams that have moved down but I don't think they are relevant to UM's case in any way. McNeese St technically moved down in 1978 when I-AA was created. FAMU abruptly cancelled their move up a few years ago but we all now what a train wreck their school is.

McNeese moved nowhere. Their conference as a whole, the Southland, was reclassified as 1AA in 1982. So try again to come up with a single relevant example of a program that decided FCS was better for them than FBS.

Come on kem, you can do better than that. If the Big Sky moved to D2 tomorrow (Griz included) would you claim that the Griz never moved to D2, they just happened to be in a conference that was reclassified? Also did you miss the part where I said " I don't think they are relevant to UM's case in any way" ?

 

[FCS Go!]

Montana is similar to Wyoming and Nebraska, in that the whole state is a fan base and media market, the difference is there are two institutions, but in spite of that it can work. They've been doing it in Wyoming for decades.

Remind me how many times Wyoming has finished in the top 25 over the past 100 years ( yes, I mean one hundred years)?

 

[EverettGriz]

Montana is similar to Wyoming and Nebraska, in that the whole state is a fan base and media market, the difference is there are two institutions, but in spite of that it can work. They've been doing it in Wyoming for decades.

Remind me how many times Wyoming has finished in the top 25 over the past 100 years ( yes, I mean one hundred years)?

But is this still a relevant, meaningful argument? Since all seem to agree that Wyoming, SDSU, Hawaii and (hopefully!!!) Montana will not be competing with the Texas's, Ohio States, Michigans and USC's within a few years, is the fact that Montana cannot compete with upper-tier FBS programs still a valid argument for choosing not to make the move?

If Montana can compete with mid-level FBS schools for a championship, shouldn't they?

 

[AZGrizFan]

Montana is similar to Wyoming and Nebraska, in that the whole state is a fan base and media market, the difference is there are two institutions, but in spite of that it can work. They've been doing it in Wyoming for decades.

Remind me how many times Wyoming has finished in the top 25 over the past 100 years ( yes, I mean one hundred years)?

But is this still a relevant, meaningful argument? Since all seem to agree that Wyoming, SDSU, Hawaii and (hopefully!!!) Montana will not be competing with the Texas's, Ohio States, Michigans and USC's within a few years, is the fact that Montana cannot compete with upper-tier FBS programs still a valid argument for choosing not to make the move?

If Montana can compete with mid-level FBS schools for a championship, shouldn't they?

Yes. :thumb: Same concept, bigger pond. :clap:

 

['68griz]

If Montana can compete with mid-level FBS schools for a championship, shouldn't they?

Yes, they probably should, if indeed there were such a championship for which to compete. Is that gonna happen? I have real doubts that it would.

 

[AZGrizFan]

If Montana can compete with mid-level FBS schools for a championship, shouldn't they?

Yes, they probably should, if indeed there were such a championship for which to compete. Is that gonna happen? I have real doubts that it would.

With the demise of the BCS and the beginnings of a 4+1 playoff, mid-level FBS will be the ONLY level WITHOUT a playoff of some sort. It will happen...