Suggestions, ideas, comments

[citygriz]

i just think you're all missing the point: we're not that good! we just don't have the talent. here's a test.

pick any combination of this year's team that you want. play any style you want. now put them up against this team:

will cherry
art steward
brian qvale
derik selvig
kareem jamar

this year's team is better at one position: kareem jamar. this kareem has experience over that one. at all other positions, the 2011 team beats this year's team decisively. we'd be down twenty by halftime. that team could ball. this one makes us bawl.

That lineup failed to make the NCAA tournament though and got beat by Duquense in the first round of the CBI. Also, remember our beating in the bracket buster that year when we got destroyed by Long Beach State? I sure remember it. Here's the box score.

If we want to compare individual players sure, at their peak, that lineup was filled with great players. When that lineup was a reality though most of the players listed weren't at their peak yet, much like we have today.

Jamar was a freshman that year who started 18 of the 32 games (missed 5 games due to injury though) and had good games, and some rough games.

Cherry was a sophomore who was prone to occasional god awful shooting numbers... like his 2-8 against Duquesne or 2-10 against EWU earlier that year. Remember cringing when he'd put up a 3 pointer? He shot 22.5% from 3 that year...yet attempted more 3 pointers than anyone on the team (102)

Steward didn't even start until damn near halfway through the season as he was a new JC player still adjusting to the d1 game. His first start was in a 63-45 loss @UNC in the 15th game of the season. If I remember right that was brought on by lineup switches because of Jamar's injury.

Selvig would occasionally have games where he was just non-existent, especially on the glass. There was also at least 1 or 2 moments each and every game where there was "OMG WTF ARE YOU DOING" pass from Selvig. He led the team with 85 turnovers.

Qvale was the most consistent of that group that year...which was to be expected since he was a senior.

We finished 12-4 in the Big Sky, lost to UNC in that cluster f*** of a ref'n job, then got beat by Duquesne in the CBI (also known as the who-gives-a-flying-rats-ass-tournament).

Anyway, it's a little unfair to compare the players of That team but using the memories of them at their peak (when most of them weren't at their peak yet) with the players of today's current team, many of which haven't reached their potential yet.

Can you honestly say Dunn has reached his potential? Of course not, he's a true freshman. How about Gregory, DeShields, Kemp, Bradshaw, Gfeller, Lopez, Martin, etc etc.... probably not quite yet. Kemp like Steward is still adjusting. Gregory and DeShields are pretty damn close though and have been very consistent lately. Gfeller, Bradshaw and Lopez are freshman and still figuring stuff out as well...as expected.

So, I disagree with you there citay. The talent is fine...it's just not clicking yet for whatever reason. We have some issues that need to be worked out and Tinkle realizes that of course. We have a lot of talent at the 1, 2, and 3. Unfortunately the 4 and 5 is where we can't find any consistency yet. Will we find the answer soon? I sure hope so...

yo, potomac. it was this group of players that:
--mauled ucla at pauley (we were up by twenty until ucla made a late garbage-time run to cut the margin to about ten
--was way up on washington in seattle until the refs took over in the second half of a pre-season game;
--took a heavily-favored new mexico to the wire in a first-round ncaa game;
--got hosed the next year as you point out in the big sky championship game at northern colorado.

there is absolutely no way you can compare this year's talent to that team. qvale alone makes a huge difference. oh, sure, dunn and gfeller will likely blossom next year and the year after, but that is not THIS year. this year they are true freshmen. this year we are what we are, and we simply are not very good, no matter what style of ball we play. and it amazes me that veteran griz fans can't recognzie the obvious.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Regardless of what you think of him, I think it's clear that Wiley would have helped the team this year. And Breunig will help out next season. But we'll need to bring in some more talent in the next two years to have a competitive team. We're in a rebuilding mode right now, and sometimes that takes more than one season.

 

[GrizPony]

Citay: I agree we are not at the same talent level. Do you think we shouldn't try different approaches to see what we can do anyway?

 

[Potomac Griz]

yo, potomac. it was this group of players that:
--mauled ucla at pauley (we were up by twenty until ucla made a late garbage-time run to cut the margin to about ten

That team did beat UCLA, Steward was not starting then though (Wood was) and freshman Jamar had 6 points.

--was way up on washington in seattle until the refs took over in the second half of a pre-season game;

Wrong team. Steward wasn't on that team nor was Jamar. That was McGillis, Johnson, Cherry, Qvale and Staudacher. Selvig was playing limited minutes due to an injury early in that season.

--took a heavily-favored new mexico to the wire in a first-round ncaa game;

That was also a year before Jamar and Steward were even on the team. The starting lineup for that game was McGillis, Cherry, Qvale, Staudacher and Johnson.

there is absolutely no way you can compare this year's talent to that team. qvale alone makes a huge difference. oh, sure, dunn and gfeller will likely blossom next year and the year after, but that is not THIS year.

I agree that Qvale makes a huge difference. What we are lacking this year is a consistent post player. Which is why people are discussing maybe the need to go small ball here and play to our strengths (which are our guards and wings).

As I said before though, you're taking a team of Qvale, Selvig, Jamar, Cherry and Steward and trying to use them to show that this Griz team isn't very good. The problem with your argument (Besides the New Mexico and Washington part, which wasn't that team) is those 5 players weren't at their peak at the same time, and definitely not that year they all were all in the lineup together. If they were, the refs wouldn't have even been able to save Northern Colorado.

Cherry - Streaky sophomore who was prone to launch up the 3 ball and miss it multiple times a game. 22.5%. Averaged 14.1 points, 4.3 assists, 2.6 steals a game. Shot 23-102 from 2 point range. Really hit his peak his Junior year which was the year after Qvale.

Jamar - Very good true freshman, but not even close to what he became late his sophomore year and junior year. Started most of the games but came off the bench a fair amount too. Averaged 8.1 points and 4.8 rebounds a game his Freshman year

Steward - Limited minutes the first half of the season, then had a breakout game in January and began to start. Averaged 8.6 points and 3.6 rebounds a game.

Selvig - Was probably pretty close to being at his best, but also had some games where he just disappeared completely. Very prone to facepalm inducing bad passes too. Averaged 10.1 points, 5.2 rebounds, 3.0 assists and 2.7 turnovers a game.

Qvale - At his peak. He was the senior and dominating inside. 14.9 Points, 8.8 rebounds, 3.0 blocked shots a game.

Now I'm not arguing this years team is as good as that team was (even with most of those players not being at their best yet). I'm just pointing out that your memory of that team seems to be based off of those particular players when they were at their best...not in the year where they were actually all on the court together.

As GrizPony asked, don't you think we should be trying some different things out there? What's going on right now is just not working... Our 4 best players at this point are all guards... Maybe small ball would work better and we could build off of that and become a good team by the time the Big Sky tournament rolls around.

 

[BDizzle]

Starting Five Should Be:

1 - Dunn
2 - Gregory
3 - Jamar
4 - Kemp
5 - Martin

Roll with it and live with the results.

 

[citygriz]

potomac is right, i'm off a year, and should have known better. i saw the new mexico game, and johnson started and had a terrible game after that fabulous performance against weber. qvale was sensational. new mexico had no answer for him. cherry made a dumb mistake down the stretch. but, hey--cherry? johnson? selvig? qvale? plus jamar as a freshman and mathias ward as a sophomore? versus this team? c'mon!

 

[GrizPony]

I think we are seeing how important an undersized Ward meant to us last year. We need a guy that can hit a 10 footer at a high percentage if we can't bang it inside.

 

[citygriz]

Citay: I agree we are not at the same talent level. Do you think we shouldn't try different approaches to see what we can do anyway?

yo, pony. good for you. you have the right attitude, as does everybody else on this board. i don't. i'm a businessman. i'm like "mr.wonderful" on "shark tank." as such, i have two main rules: cash is worth ten mothers. and...cut your loss.

i had high hopes for chris kemp. expected big improvement from martin and wiley. knew dunn was going to be good, possibly as a freshman. and always loved jordan gregory and kareem jamar. but...with kemp, martin and wiley all huge disappointements, i say, it's time to cut our loss. prepare for the future. play the young guys. we're 1-3. we've lost a game at home, which you can't do, and failed to beat two weaker teams on the road. we haven't even played northern colorado or weber. this is gonna get ugly.

i did say cash is worth ten mothers. so you can buy me back if you want.

 

[GrizPony]

Citay: I agree we are not at the same talent level. Do you think we shouldn't try different approaches to see what we can do anyway?

yo, pony. good for you. you have the right attitude, as does everybody else on this board. i don't. i'm a businessman. i'm like "mr.wonderful" on "shark tank." as such, i have two main rules: cash is worth ten mothers. and...cut your loss.

i had high hopes for chris kemp. expected big improvement from martin and wiley. knew dunn was going to be good, possibly as a freshman. and always loved jordan gregory and kareem jamar. but...with kemp, martin and wiley all huge disappointements, i say, it's time to cut our loss. prepare for the future. play the young guys. we're 1-3. we've lost a game at home, which you can't do, and failed to beat two weaker teams on the road. we haven't even played northern colorado or weber. this is gonna get ugly.

i did say cash is worth ten mothers. so you can buy me back if you want.

Haha I don't think Martin has played enough minutes to know what he can do and he is young. So I agree, lets play the young guys and see what we have. If they don't improve, cut em loose and get some real bigs in here.

 

[Mousegriz]

We really miss Cherry and Ward.

You can argue about what Cherry could or couldn't do but I feel even his presence on the bench with a boot on his foot last year helped us win some games. His charisma and toughness were as important as his quickness and basketball skills. The first time I saw Will live as a freshman he carried a hard to miss "I'm not gonna lose and if I do it's not gonna be easy to beat me". His rebounding was excellent for a PG, his defense suffocating at times.

Ward had the great scoring skills and his rebounding improved throughout his career. Despite being undersized his post defense also improved over time. We really struggle against any kind of decent post play and going small won't resolve it. Weisner has been forced to cover "4's" for 3 years and in trying to do so now can't seem to shoot. We need someone else to fill that role.

I agree with many that this year is starting to look like a "try it and see" year. I think the young post needs more minutes regardless of production and it seems odd to have him start one night, produce a few decent "per minute" stats then sit or play very little the next (or later in the same) game. Same with Kemp. I'm not at practice and know the coaches learn and see a lot more than we do going to games. But we recruited these guys, don't have many other options at this point, so let's play 'em. How do we know our true recruiting needs if guys we expect to play over the next 2 - 3 year aren't showing us what they can do in games?

As for recruiting needs, I think Tinkle has gotten a little too enamored by shooting and quickness as the most important basketball skills. Every team needs a Bill Laimbeer type guy, a few skills but some size and ability to take up space. The kid from Bozeman (Owsley) worked over our big guys when we played Western MT last month. Think he had 20 pts or so and 10+ rebounds.......but bet he never got a recruiting call from our staff. We got "the Hutch" a Washington guy who for whatever reason someone thought was a talent. Did we recruit his inside shooting "touch" (watch out backboard), foot "skills" or great "hands"? All three would have had me moving on to another gym and recruit.

Not going to diss TInks or this team too much. They play hard and we all know that a few big guy recruits never made the floor here for various reasons.....but I don't see or hear of us recruiting more than the Glendive kid as a big guy. We need at least one or two more.....and a few less 6'5" guys that shoot well.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Run and gun.
Drive and dish.
Full court pressure D.
Small ball.

Whadda we got to lose?

 

[Maynardsgametrail]

Starting Five Should Be:

1 - Dunn
2 - Gregory
3 - Jamar
4 - Kemp
5 - Martin

Roll with it and live with the results.

I am not sure if Martin would gas out or foul out first (in the first half).........I was, and still am, a huge fan of Andy, but I don't think the kid is going to morph into anything special. We would have seen the progress by now. Who knows though.

All Tinkle has are Hutch and Kemp with a small side of Martin.

My lineup would be:

Dunn
Gregory
DeShields
Jamar
Kemp-If opposing team has smaller lineup.
or
Hutch- If opposing team uses a large lineup.

First off bench:
Bigs- Kemp/Hutchison, Martin

Forwards- Weisner, Gfeller, Lopez.

Guards- Bradshaw...........Gfeller?

Moral support- Emerson, Young.

Our big's should have one role and that is to keep arms up and be loooong......that's it......Defend vertically. They all get caught with arms down and fouling.

 

[citygriz]

Run and gun.
Drive and dish.
Full court pressure D.
Small ball.

Whadda we got to lose?

remember paul westhead at loyola marymount? this from wikipedia:

Paul Westhead coached the Loyola Marymount men's basketball team in the late 1980s using a version of the run and gun.[8] While run and gun basketball is often thought of as a system of offense, Westhead's system uses a combined offensive and defensive philosophy. Offensively, the team moves the ball forward as quickly as possible and takes the first available shot, often a three-pointer. Westhead's teams try to shoot the ball in less than seven seconds. The aim is to shoot before the defense is able to get set. Defensively, the team applies constant full-court pressure. Generally, the team is willing to gamble on giving away easy baskets for the sake of maintaining a high tempo.[8]

this style worked great for westhead. in one ncaa tournament, he blasted an alabama team that featured future pros latrell sprewell and robert horry. their team was never out of a game, no matter the deficit, and the networks loved the show. marymount was on tv every weekend.

but here's the anwer: first and foremost in life, you have to be yourself. and this is just not tinks, or his style. no matter we'd like to see it, it ain't gonna happen at montana under tinks, ever.

 

[PlayerRep]

Citay: I agree we are not at the same talent level. Do you think we shouldn't try different approaches to see what we can do anyway?

yo, pony. good for you. you have the right attitude, as does everybody else on this board. i don't. i'm a businessman. i'm like "mr.wonderful" on "shark tank." as such, i have two main rules: cash is worth ten mothers. and...cut your loss.

i had high hopes for chris kemp. expected big improvement from martin and wiley. knew dunn was going to be good, possibly as a freshman. and always loved jordan gregory and kareem jamar. but...with kemp, martin and wiley all huge disappointements, i say, it's time to cut our loss. prepare for the future. play the young guys. we're 1-3. we've lost a game at home, which you can't do, and failed to beat two weaker teams on the road. we haven't even played northern colorado or weber. this is gonna get ugly.

i did say cash is worth ten mothers. so you can buy me back if you want.

I don't agree that Kemp has been a huge disappointment at all. He's played well or fairly well every time I've seen him play, and I have season tickets and attended some practices.

 

[citygriz]

kemp just lit up portland state for one rebound and three fouls. he's on the brink of a monster breakout game. player rep will let us know when it happens. until then, he'll claim it already has.

 

[PlayerRep]

kemp just lit up portland state for one rebound and three fouls. he's on the brink of a monster breakout game. player rep will let us know when it happens. until then, he'll claim it already has.

Kemp had the 7th most minutes in the PSU game.

Kemp already had his break out game a week ago. Sac St, UM's only conference win. 10 points on 5-8 shooting. 7 rebounds. 3 steals. 1 block. 24 minutes.

Note that several posters, above, say Kemp should be starting.

While you normally seem to know something about basketball, you must not be paying attention on this one.

 

[Griz1]

kemp just lit up portland state for one rebound and three fouls. he's on the brink of a monster breakout game. player rep will let us know when it happens. until then, he'll claim it already has.

Kemp had the 7th most minutes in the PSU game.

Kemp already had his break out game a week ago. Sac St, UM's only conference win. 10 points on 5-8 shooting. 7 rebounds. 3 steals. 1 block. 24 minutes.

Note that several posters, above, say Kemp should be starting.

While you normally seem to know something about basketball, you must not be paying attention on this one.

One game does not make a break out. I have been filled with high hopes for Kemp all year. But those hopes are waining. Until I see him being able to shoot 12 to 15 foot shots facing the basket (and make them), which he has not done at all, defend the interior which he has not done a good job of all year with a one-game exception, and rebound the ball more aggressively I am reserving judgment on him. Size is not his issue. Athletic talent in not his issue. Position is, moving his feet is, understanding the game is and if anyone watches Barden and Huskisson this week they will see what Kemp is missing. They will also see what the coaches keep telling him he must do. While there is hope this season is starting to go by quickly and it I feel that it is going to be a long journey for him to travel.

Personally I think he may be too nice of a kid and need a little "meanness" inserted in his body. Where is the Butte mentality when we need it?

By the way PR just because citay doesn't agree with you does not make him wrong. In my opinion I think he has this nailed. Time will tell!!

 

[EverettGriz]

I think we can all agree Kemp has under-whelmed so far.



Honestly, I think this team really misses Mathias Ward. We all knew he was a solid player, but I think we may likely have underestimated the huge impact he had on the team. Perhaps he was the glue that held it all together.

He was tough as nails, could board it, could dish it, could score it from inside, medium range and out (very rare these days), and he was obviously extremely intelligent with a high BB IQ. I have a feeling he was a quiet leader and a presence on the floor that this year's team desperately needs.

 

[mtgrizrule]

I wish I could find it online again, but have not. I was reading an article about how the new officiating emphasis's will be changing college basketball There are 2 kind of players coaches will be looking for and trying to develop more than before.

(1) Quick great ballhandlers who can get into the lane. Cutting down on hand checking allows for quicker players to make things happen in the lane more often. Teams will be looking for 4 to 6 players per season who can do this consistently. The GRIZ have players who get into the lane. The only quick ones I would say are Dunn and Deshields.

(2) Shot blocking big men will even be more important with penetrators becoming a bigger part of college basketball. Less emphasis will be on offensive big men. Skilled shot blockers will make a return.

(3) Expect teams to take more risks on raw athletic jumpers and quick players, especially at the mid major down to the smaller schools. Coaches will have to build up these athletes more to compete more with the programs who land the elite bigs without a problem. The article mentioned more 6'4 to 6'7" human pogo sticks to fill in the gaps for the lack of true quality big men. I immediately thought of how the loss of Wiley hurts us in that area. Part of me hopes football does not work out for Wiley. I'd love to see him back on the court.

It was also mentioned how the majority of NCAA teams are struggling with players who consistently control the glass due to the transition of more 3 point shooting over the years. Maybe Wayne's emphasis on recruiting quicker, more athletic guards is becoming more a trend in college basketball with time.

It will be interesting to see how things play out for the GRIZ and college basketball as a whole the next few years. After reading that, I am even more relieved we have the likes of Gregory (improved skills at getting into the paint),Deshields and Dunn for 1 more and 3 more years respectfully. Too bad Breunig cannot play this season. I am hearing big things are expected of him the next 2 seasons. He is capable of being a 2 time Big Sky MVP, and average a double per game in points and rebounding.

 

[zengriz]

...handz up on defense...
...translatez to the offensive end...
...make yourself big/make yourself present...
...basketball iz hard/keep your fricking handz up...

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