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- Thread starter mtgrizrule
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Potomac Griz said:Maynardsgametrail said:
Neither can Hutch... that leaves :?
All 3 of our bigs are averaging over 6 fouls per 40 minutes played. Hutch at 6.2, Kemp at 6.7 and Martin at 8.6
Also, I agree with you on Dunn. Can't take DeShield's or Gregory's minutes away for Dunn since both of them are very much needed out there. DeShields for his defense and actually his 3 point shooting and scoring lately has kept us in it lately when shit was getting out of hand. Gregory is such an offensive threat and a damn fine rebounder we certainly cant cut his minutes.
I wonder if it would make sense to start Gregory at the three and have Dunn & DeShields as the 1 and 2 with Jamar playing the 4 more often. 4 guard lineup in the big sky might work.... With that lineup we'd get a lot of turnovers but would likely get abused inside (like we do already). Weisner has been in a serious slump lately it seems and hasn't exactly wow'd on the boards either
Just going by production (Points, rebounds, etc etc) our 5 most productive players per 40 minutes are (bolded stats mean they lead the team per 40 minutes):
Kareem Jamar:
20.1 points, 6.417 rebounds, 5 assists, 0.83 steals, 0.5 blocks, 2.2 turnovers, 2.9 fouls
Jordan Gregory:
17.9 points, 3.783 rebounds, 2.17 assists, .95 steals, 0 blocks, 1.5 turnovers, 1.9 fouls
Keron DeShields:
16.7 points, 2.886 rebounds, 2.99 assists, 1.89 steals, 0.2 blocks, 2 turnovers, 4 fouls
Mario Dunn:
13.3 points, 5.234 rebounds, 3.55 assists, 2.06 steals, 1.12 blocks, 2.4 turnovers, 4.5 fouls
Chris Kemp:
10.7 points, 8.116 rebounds, 0 assists, 2.03 steals, 1.45 blocks, 2 turnovers, 6.7 fouls
Obviously stats don't mean everything, but it's interesting to look at who is making the most of the minutes they get. If we could find ANY consistency inside this team could be very very good. Jamar, Gregory, DeShields and Dunn all the court at the same time could create a lot of trouble for opposing teams. Both DeShields and Dunn have been awesome with disrupting the other teams offense lately, picking up a ton of steals too. Small lineup... but shit when we aren't getting production out of our bigs it may be time to experiment with smaller quicker lineups.
Thanks for doing these stats. Interesting. Would be interesting to compare to GFeller, Hutch and Martin. Haha.
mtgrizrule
Well-known member
I am liking the participation and opinions in this thread. Well done so far all.
Defense
This is the first area that needs attention. While these losses have all been close, we've had to work harder for our buckets than the opponents. There have been too many letdowns, often at crucial times, with guys getting wide open shots, layups or dunks. We need to make it harder for them to score...especially with our rebounding problems.
Bill Evans was the coach in charge of defense when he was here and that role went primarily to Freddie Owens last year. Bill was really tough on the team to play proper defense all the time and with proper technique, etc. If that wasn't done, he was all over them until they got it right. Owens was a tough defensive minded player from a good Big 10 team and he did well to take the reigns last year. I'm not sure who's now in charge of the defense this year. Whoever it is, while they may know their stuff, at least part of the let down has to come from losing those two coaches. This is the most apparent in the paint.
Offense
We've had success with small-ball and I agree that we should do more of that, along with looking to get out and run instead of always playing in the half court.
Here's another idea that nobody has discussed yet but we saw a little bit of it during the overtimes against PSU...utilizing the high post. We had some success when Gregory set up at the high post a few times. Believe it or not, but I really think we could have success with playing Martin and Hutch at the time time...or Kemp and Hutch...or Martin and Kemp. Of the three, Hutch would probably be best to set up at the high post. He could knock down that shot once in a while. They could also roam the guards through there...Jamar, Weisner, Gregory, Gfeller, etc.
It's been quite a while since I've discussed this, but UM relies too much on 3 pointers and shots at the rim while neglecting a very important part of the game...the mid-range shot. I won't go through all that again but the most successful teams know how and when to exploit defenses with all three scoring levels. By utilizing the high post, that will draw defenders from the wings so that we can hit the guards for 3's or mid-range shots and/or it will draw defenders from the low block so that the low post can get some easy buckets. We spend too much time dribbling and passing the ball around the exterior at times and need to get more inside/outside ball movement.
Finally, since our strongest scorers are the guards and the bigs have struggled to convert down low, it's clear to me that they are apprehensive to feed the post. Sometimes the strategy for feeding the post is not at all for the post player to score...but to kick it back out to the guards flashing and spotting up for 3's and mid-range shots. Obviously a big has the option to shoot if it's wide open and not a difficult shot but this could be a pretty easy way to get the bigs involved by helping to create better scoring opportunities for the guards and forwards until they get more confident and consistent with scoring themselves.
While these blogs are fun to read, I know it really doesn't go anywhere. We all have the answers but I seriously doubt the coaches look at this and I'm pretty sure they may know a little more about these things than most of us.
This is the first area that needs attention. While these losses have all been close, we've had to work harder for our buckets than the opponents. There have been too many letdowns, often at crucial times, with guys getting wide open shots, layups or dunks. We need to make it harder for them to score...especially with our rebounding problems.
Bill Evans was the coach in charge of defense when he was here and that role went primarily to Freddie Owens last year. Bill was really tough on the team to play proper defense all the time and with proper technique, etc. If that wasn't done, he was all over them until they got it right. Owens was a tough defensive minded player from a good Big 10 team and he did well to take the reigns last year. I'm not sure who's now in charge of the defense this year. Whoever it is, while they may know their stuff, at least part of the let down has to come from losing those two coaches. This is the most apparent in the paint.
Offense
We've had success with small-ball and I agree that we should do more of that, along with looking to get out and run instead of always playing in the half court.
Here's another idea that nobody has discussed yet but we saw a little bit of it during the overtimes against PSU...utilizing the high post. We had some success when Gregory set up at the high post a few times. Believe it or not, but I really think we could have success with playing Martin and Hutch at the time time...or Kemp and Hutch...or Martin and Kemp. Of the three, Hutch would probably be best to set up at the high post. He could knock down that shot once in a while. They could also roam the guards through there...Jamar, Weisner, Gregory, Gfeller, etc.
It's been quite a while since I've discussed this, but UM relies too much on 3 pointers and shots at the rim while neglecting a very important part of the game...the mid-range shot. I won't go through all that again but the most successful teams know how and when to exploit defenses with all three scoring levels. By utilizing the high post, that will draw defenders from the wings so that we can hit the guards for 3's or mid-range shots and/or it will draw defenders from the low block so that the low post can get some easy buckets. We spend too much time dribbling and passing the ball around the exterior at times and need to get more inside/outside ball movement.
Finally, since our strongest scorers are the guards and the bigs have struggled to convert down low, it's clear to me that they are apprehensive to feed the post. Sometimes the strategy for feeding the post is not at all for the post player to score...but to kick it back out to the guards flashing and spotting up for 3's and mid-range shots. Obviously a big has the option to shoot if it's wide open and not a difficult shot but this could be a pretty easy way to get the bigs involved by helping to create better scoring opportunities for the guards and forwards until they get more confident and consistent with scoring themselves.
While these blogs are fun to read, I know it really doesn't go anywhere. We all have the answers but I seriously doubt the coaches look at this and I'm pretty sure they may know a little more about these things than most of us.
My suggestion/idea/comment is for our current freshmen and sophomores to become upperclassmen. :thumb:
Potomac Griz
Well-known member
One thing I've noticed is some people really seem to hint at starting Dunn in place of DeShields... while I agree Dunn has been very good lately I think many are underestimating how much DeShields brings to the Griz team. As of right now, he has the highest shooting percentage of any of our guards and wings, and the only one shooting above 50% (Dunn is right at 50%). He's also 2nd best for 3pt% on the team, just 0.06% behind Gregory. He also has more steals than anyone on the team with 19 and just averaging slightly under Dunn's 2.06 steals per 40 minutes (at 1.89)
Here are the FG% numbers for our guards and wings (including Weisner in this list even though he plays the 4 mostly):
DeShields: 61-118 (51.69%)
Dunn: 18-36 (50%)
Jamar: 78-162 (48.15%)
Gregory: 58-124 (46.77%)
Weisner: 30-66 (45.45%)
Gfeller: 18-46 (39.13%)
Here are the 3 point numbers for our guards and wings:
Gregory: 30-74 (40.54%)
DeShields: 17-42 (40.48%)
Weisner: 15-38 (39.47%)
Gfeller: 14-38 (36.84%)
Dunn: 4-11 (36.36%)
Jamar: 20-58 (34.48%)
Hell, if you look at conference only games he's on the leader list in many pretty important stats.
Scoring: #14 (Tied with Barden of NC) with 14.3 points per game. Gregory at #4 with 18.8 and Jamar at #7 with 16.0
FG%: #13 at 57.9%. No other Griz on that list.
Steals: #3 in conference tied with Jaron Nash of UND with 1.8 per game. Kemp is at #8 with 1.3 per game.
3-point FG PCT: #5 with 61.5% (8-13). No other Griz on this list.
3 Point FG made per game: #13 with 2.0 per game. Gregory is at #6 with 3.0, Jamar isn't on the list.
Makes me wonder if a lineup of Dunn, DeShields, Gregory, Jamar and one of the bigs would make sense. We get more rebounding out of our guards anyway than our bigs usually so fuck it, put 4 of 'em out there!
Here are the FG% numbers for our guards and wings (including Weisner in this list even though he plays the 4 mostly):
DeShields: 61-118 (51.69%)
Dunn: 18-36 (50%)
Jamar: 78-162 (48.15%)
Gregory: 58-124 (46.77%)
Weisner: 30-66 (45.45%)
Gfeller: 18-46 (39.13%)
Here are the 3 point numbers for our guards and wings:
Gregory: 30-74 (40.54%)
DeShields: 17-42 (40.48%)
Weisner: 15-38 (39.47%)
Gfeller: 14-38 (36.84%)
Dunn: 4-11 (36.36%)
Jamar: 20-58 (34.48%)
Hell, if you look at conference only games he's on the leader list in many pretty important stats.
Scoring: #14 (Tied with Barden of NC) with 14.3 points per game. Gregory at #4 with 18.8 and Jamar at #7 with 16.0
FG%: #13 at 57.9%. No other Griz on that list.
Steals: #3 in conference tied with Jaron Nash of UND with 1.8 per game. Kemp is at #8 with 1.3 per game.
3-point FG PCT: #5 with 61.5% (8-13). No other Griz on this list.
3 Point FG made per game: #13 with 2.0 per game. Gregory is at #6 with 3.0, Jamar isn't on the list.
Makes me wonder if a lineup of Dunn, DeShields, Gregory, Jamar and one of the bigs would make sense. We get more rebounding out of our guards anyway than our bigs usually so fuck it, put 4 of 'em out there!
grizzlyjournal
Well-known member
Potomac Griz said:Makes me wonder if a lineup of Dunn, DeShields, Gregory, Jamar and one of the bigs would make sense. We get more rebounding out of our guards anyway than our bigs usually so f*** it, put 4 of 'em out there!
Earlier in this thread I had suggested a similar lineup with Gfeller instead of DeShields. But, Potomac Griz, you're spot-on about Keron. Start the four you suggest, with Kareem at 4 and whoever plays the best floor game between Hutch, Martin and Kemp. The key is to get Dunn onto the floor early, and then often. Then, sub the guys who contribute the most off the bench (between Weisner, Gfeller, Bradshaw...)
But, even a cursory look at the stats Dunn put up against PSU, & I think he needs more minutes, starting earlier.
Well put, PG.
mtgrizrule
Well-known member
I want to add to the choice of who to come off the bench. Coming off the bench is not necessarily a demotion, just a different role. A role harder to find players comfortable doing it. I do not know what Wayne looks for in his primary bench players. I do know many coaches want few things off the bench. I like having someone with energy, which will boost a little extra spark to the team immediately. I also like having a player or two that can play multiple positions with versatile skill sets. I honestly feel Weisner and Deshields bring just that.
Let's look at our Guards, which are considered 1's and/or 2's ( Jamar out of this equation).
Gregory- his primary role is SG, good approaching great scorer. Based on the other guards, very little need to have him play PG. No need to bring him off the bench.
Dunn- He has all the characteristics of a true playmaking PG. He is a shutdown defender, penetrator, and most importantly makes teammates better on each end of the court. Due to his size, most his minutes should be at the PG. No need to use him much at SG.
Bradshaw- He is just getting back to finding his game and really a year or 2 away from being a consistent minute contributor, unless there is an injury. He can play PG or SG. Best to have him defend SG's though. His defense is better than many give him credit for though.
Deshields- He has experience coming off the bench with productivity. He brings attitude, energy, and talent off the bench. He can play PG and SG equally well. He is a great defender, rebounds well, handles the ball well, and a great spark on both ends of the court. He is our most versatile PG/SG. He is a true combo guard. He is capable of making teammates better offensively, yet has not become comfortable with it. Dunn is a natural at it. If Dunn is struggling at PG, or Gregory at SG, Deshields is ready to play either without drop off. I am not knocking Keron here. To me his skill set, mindset, temperment, and attitude is ideal for the 6th man role.
I will not break down the 3,4,5 positions. We know what Kareem is and have covered our 4/5 way too many times already. Weisner is also used to coming off the bench, and very good at it. He brings the versatility to his game. He is a natural 3, but due to circumstances has to play the 4. We need experience for Kemp at the 4. Kemp is a true 4 to me. Weisner off the bench allows for Wayne to spell Kareem more often at the 3, or when Kareem is in foul trouble. Weisner also can man minutes at the 4 for the times Kemp struggles or gets in foul trouble.
When Kareem gets in foul trouble, we have an inexperienced Gfeller as Jamar's main back up or forced to go to a true 3 guard line up. Granted, I love our guards, but hate to see the mismatches and have them get beat up by bigger 3's. Either filling minutes at the 3 wears them down. Weisner seeing so many minutes at the 4 or even 5 is too much for him physically with his build. Weisner off the bench makes perfect sense to me. Again not knocking him. Based on our personnel, Weisner is perfect for this role. He also is a nice change of pace in place of Kemp. Big strong defenders will struggle with him more being fresh off the bench. Weisner did this well last season.
Agree or disagree with me on either. To me, it is an easy decision to have Deshields and Weisner as our main men off the bench. It also adds to the development of Dunn and Kemp.
Let's look at our Guards, which are considered 1's and/or 2's ( Jamar out of this equation).
Gregory- his primary role is SG, good approaching great scorer. Based on the other guards, very little need to have him play PG. No need to bring him off the bench.
Dunn- He has all the characteristics of a true playmaking PG. He is a shutdown defender, penetrator, and most importantly makes teammates better on each end of the court. Due to his size, most his minutes should be at the PG. No need to use him much at SG.
Bradshaw- He is just getting back to finding his game and really a year or 2 away from being a consistent minute contributor, unless there is an injury. He can play PG or SG. Best to have him defend SG's though. His defense is better than many give him credit for though.
Deshields- He has experience coming off the bench with productivity. He brings attitude, energy, and talent off the bench. He can play PG and SG equally well. He is a great defender, rebounds well, handles the ball well, and a great spark on both ends of the court. He is our most versatile PG/SG. He is a true combo guard. He is capable of making teammates better offensively, yet has not become comfortable with it. Dunn is a natural at it. If Dunn is struggling at PG, or Gregory at SG, Deshields is ready to play either without drop off. I am not knocking Keron here. To me his skill set, mindset, temperment, and attitude is ideal for the 6th man role.
I will not break down the 3,4,5 positions. We know what Kareem is and have covered our 4/5 way too many times already. Weisner is also used to coming off the bench, and very good at it. He brings the versatility to his game. He is a natural 3, but due to circumstances has to play the 4. We need experience for Kemp at the 4. Kemp is a true 4 to me. Weisner off the bench allows for Wayne to spell Kareem more often at the 3, or when Kareem is in foul trouble. Weisner also can man minutes at the 4 for the times Kemp struggles or gets in foul trouble.
When Kareem gets in foul trouble, we have an inexperienced Gfeller as Jamar's main back up or forced to go to a true 3 guard line up. Granted, I love our guards, but hate to see the mismatches and have them get beat up by bigger 3's. Either filling minutes at the 3 wears them down. Weisner seeing so many minutes at the 4 or even 5 is too much for him physically with his build. Weisner off the bench makes perfect sense to me. Again not knocking him. Based on our personnel, Weisner is perfect for this role. He also is a nice change of pace in place of Kemp. Big strong defenders will struggle with him more being fresh off the bench. Weisner did this well last season.
Agree or disagree with me on either. To me, it is an easy decision to have Deshields and Weisner as our main men off the bench. It also adds to the development of Dunn and Kemp.
Does anyone get the feeling that at times Tinks seems to micro-manage the players? They sometimes seem tight and afraid to make a mistake instead of playing freely and in a flow? You are going to make mistakes one way or another but it seems like when we play a little looser we are capable of playing some good ball.
mtgrizrule
Well-known member
cclarkblues said:
Hard to tell watching online. It does appear to me Kemp is really scared to make mistakes and always looking over his shoulder. I just don't know why the bigs have not found any consistency yet. Wayne makes very few coaching mistakes, but running the clock down against PSU is the most perplexing thing I can recall since Wayne took over. Maybe he thought due to foul trouble it might be wise to run more clock. That is the only thing I can think of or come up with.
Yes. Very much so. He needs to let them play a little. At Portland, it was obvious, Players kept being told where to go, and they constantly have to be looking at the bench for direction. Why bother recruiting good players if they are going to be told their every move?cclarkblues said:
GrizLA said:
Reminds me of those rare days I get on the wrong side of my wife...
mtgrizrule
Well-known member
For a few years now, we have been wondering how the GRIZ would do with more pressure and faster pace. If Wayne were to decide to do it, could this be another step in his coaching development? After the success he has had doing what they have been doing, it is hard to change to that. I for one would like to see him give it a shot by implementing for 5 to 10 minutes at a time. I would not bitch if they struggled doing so. My curiosity has the better of me on this one.
i love this thread! just helpful hints and suggestions about how to get better--two-bigs at the same time, small ball, more three-point shots, fewer three-points shots, more mid-range shots, better defense (can never go wrong with that one), let 'em play, et. al, with never a recrimiantion against the players or tinks. beautiful.
i just think you're all missing the point: we're not that good! we just don't have the talent. here's a test.
pick any combination of this year's team that you want. play any style you want. now put them up against this team:
will cherry
art steward
brian qvale
derik selvig
kareem jamar
this year's team is better at one position: kareem jamar. this kareem has experience over that one. at all other positions, the 2011 team beats this year's team decisively. we'd be down twenty by halftime. that team could ball. this one makes us bawl.
i just think you're all missing the point: we're not that good! we just don't have the talent. here's a test.
pick any combination of this year's team that you want. play any style you want. now put them up against this team:
will cherry
art steward
brian qvale
derik selvig
kareem jamar
this year's team is better at one position: kareem jamar. this kareem has experience over that one. at all other positions, the 2011 team beats this year's team decisively. we'd be down twenty by halftime. that team could ball. this one makes us bawl.
Potomac Griz
Well-known member
citay said:
That lineup failed to make the NCAA tournament though and got beat by Duquense in the first round of the CBI. Also, remember our beating in the bracket buster that year when we got destroyed by Long Beach State? I sure remember it. Here's the box score.
If we want to compare individual players sure, at their peak, that lineup was filled with great players. When that lineup was a reality though most of the players listed weren't at their peak yet, much like we have today.
Jamar was a freshman that year who started 18 of the 32 games (missed 5 games due to injury though) and had good games, and some rough games.
Cherry was a sophomore who was prone to occasional god awful shooting numbers... like his 2-8 against Duquesne or 2-10 against EWU earlier that year. Remember cringing when he'd put up a 3 pointer? He shot 22.5% from 3 that year...yet attempted more 3 pointers than anyone on the team (102)
Steward didn't even start until damn near halfway through the season as he was a new JC player still adjusting to the d1 game. His first start was in a 63-45 loss @UNC in the 15th game of the season. If I remember right that was brought on by lineup switches because of Jamar's injury.
Selvig would occasionally have games where he was just non-existent, especially on the glass. There was also at least 1 or 2 moments each and every game where there was "OMG WTF ARE YOU DOING" pass from Selvig. He led the team with 85 turnovers.
Qvale was the most consistent of that group that year...which was to be expected since he was a senior.
We finished 12-4 in the Big Sky, lost to UNC in that cluster fuck of a ref'n job, then got beat by Duquesne in the CBI (also known as the who-gives-a-flying-rats-ass-tournament).
Anyway, it's a little unfair to compare the players of That team but using the memories of them at their peak (when most of them weren't at their peak yet) with the players of today's current team, many of which haven't reached their potential yet.
Can you honestly say Dunn has reached his potential? Of course not, he's a true freshman. How about Gregory, DeShields, Kemp, Bradshaw, Gfeller, Lopez, Martin, etc etc.... probably not quite yet. Kemp like Steward is still adjusting. Gregory and DeShields are pretty damn close though and have been very consistent lately. Gfeller, Bradshaw and Lopez are freshman and still figuring stuff out as well...as expected.
So, I disagree with you there citay. The talent is fine...it's just not clicking yet for whatever reason. We have some issues that need to be worked out and Tinkle realizes that of course. We have a lot of talent at the 1, 2, and 3. Unfortunately the 4 and 5 is where we can't find any consistency yet. Will we find the answer soon? I sure hope so...
regarding earlier posts on the micromanaging of players, team play etc...
It appears that coaches all over basketball are almost the sixth player on the court, just watch at almost any game at any level.
It used to be coaches simply sat and only got on the court at timeouts, now they run up and down directing every possession!
It appears that coaches all over basketball are almost the sixth player on the court, just watch at almost any game at any level.
It used to be coaches simply sat and only got on the court at timeouts, now they run up and down directing every possession!
GrizPony
Well-known member
first11 said:
Montgomery, who coached Wayne, was all over players the whole game, and that was thirty some years ago at UM. I think that style is in Wayne's marrow and his default position when things are going poorly. I have come to trust Wayne's decisions over the years because he has always had us playing our best ball come conference time. This is the first year in a long time I am not sure that is the case. The hook is so quick on Kemp and Martin that they look frightened all the time. Two weeks ago, Martin got a block, two rebounds and two points in around four minutes. He got the hook and never returned. Inexplicable to me. Hutch is a great kid, but there is no upside at this point. I can not believe we wouldn't be better served giving Martin and Kemp more minutes and just let them learn on the fly. If not that, then lets go small ball, press and run. The half court game is not going to favor us this year as far as I can tell.
