So who wants to bet

[NativeGriz]

Interesting thought.

How about this one? UM hires Baldwin in a few weeks, and Hauck is walking around EWU sidelines next fall and able to recruit the lower qualifiers which Baldwin has been recruiting for years but he wouldn't be able to get accepted at UM?

Or this one: McElwain moves on to Nebraska or someone, and Baldwin goes to CSU.

Or this one: Pflu to EWU or PSU. Takes a bunch of Griz assistants looking for a job.

Or, it turns out that Baldwin, while a good coach and good guy, can't get his low qualifier high impact recruits into UM like he did at EWU, has some trouble recruiting without all scollies, can't take the pressure at UM when he's not immediately fully successful, and isn't good at fund-raising (which he hasn't had to do at EWUI) or mixing with alums/boosters and the academic side of the university (which is not as important at EWU).

That was a mouth full. It will be interesting to see if any of it comes true. Do you see Kramer staying at ISU, even if he were offered the UM job.

 

[griz4life]

PR knows what he's talking about on this.

DJ Martin a former Cal recruit who didn't qualify and was a prop 48 eat EWU before flunking out of EWU (not sure how he managed that)
Keonte White - 2 star recruit - prop 48
Ronald Baines - prop 48
Anthony Larry - prop 48
T.J. Lee III - prop 48

Former stud RB Jesse Chatman - prop 48 (not a Baldwin recruit)

Not football but NBA star and former EWU hoop player Rodney Stuckey - prop 48

About seven players in 20 years? UM has certainly taken some gambles in that time period.
I was one of those Griz fans who parroted the rumor that Eastern athletics benefited from lower admission standards until a former UM athletic director informed me that the standards really weren't all that different. Really, the only significant difference are the stated minimum scores for the ACT or SAT, students choice.
EWU uses the scores for placement and doesn't have a minimum. Montana universities require a minimum composite ACT of 22, which would give UM better than average students were it not for the long list of exceptions to the standard.
UM will also take a combined 1540 SAT, which is barely better than the average for all test takers first and second try.
If a student can't get a 1540, he can still be admitted with a 2.5 high school gpa and the right courses.
If the high school gpa of 2.5 is too tough, a student can still get in if they rank in the top half of their graduating class. The top half! That pretty much opens to the door to everyone with a pulse and suddenly UM and EWU really aren't that different. The NCAA rules for would-be student athletes are, of course, the same at both schools.

The real question about prop 48 students should be if whether they're graduating and not only that but whether they graduate in four years. If they don't graduate in four years, then they only get to play for three. EWU has done fairly well at keeping their prop 48 athletes on the four-year graduation track.

Are there DJ Martins? Sure. But Montana has taken some big gambles, also. CJ Atkins was such a bad student that after being recruited by Pflu at WSU and enrolling in the spring, he was ineligible by the time fall practice started. He literally had to re-enroll in high school to qualify for admission at College of the Canyons, after which Pflu recruited CJ a second time. If Atkins wasn't a "lower qualifier" then who is?

 

[grizfnz]

PR knows what he's talking about on this.

DJ Martin a former Cal recruit who didn't qualify and was a prop 48 eat EWU before flunking out of EWU (not sure how he managed that)
Keonte White - 2 star recruit - prop 48
Ronald Baines - prop 48
Anthony Larry - prop 48
T.J. Lee III - prop 48

Former stud RB Jesse Chatman - prop 48 (not a Baldwin recruit)

Not football but NBA star and former EWU hoop player Rodney Stuckey - prop 48

About seven players in 20 years? UM has certainly taken some gambles in that time period.
I was one of those Griz fans who parroted the rumor that Eastern athletics benefited from lower admission standards until a former UM athletic director informed me that the standards really weren't all that different. Really, the only significant difference are the stated minimum scores for the ACT or SAT, students choice.
EWU uses the scores for placement and doesn't have a minimum. Montana universities require a minimum composite ACT of 22, which would give UM better than average students were it not for the long list of exceptions to the standard.
UM will also take a combined 1540 SAT, which is barely better than the average for all test takers first and second try.
If a student can't get a 1540, he can still be admitted with a 2.5 high school gpa and the right courses.
If the high school gpa of 2.5 is too tough, a student can still get in if they rank in the top half of their graduating class. The top half! That pretty much opens to the door to everyone with a pulse and suddenly UM and EWU really aren't that different. The NCAA rules for would-be student athletes are, of course, the same at both schools.

The real question about prop 48 students should be if whether they're graduating and not only that but whether they graduate in four years. If they don't graduate in four years, then they only get to play for three. EWU has done fairly well at keeping their prop 48 athletes on the four-year graduation track.

Are there DJ Martins? Sure. But Montana has taken some big gambles, also. CJ Atkins was such a bad student that after being recruited by Pflu at WSU and enrolling in the spring, he was ineligible by the time fall practice started. He literally had to re-enroll in high school to qualify for admission at College of the Canyons, after which Pflu recruited CJ a second time. If Atkins wasn't a "lower qualifier" then who is?

6 of them have come under Baldwin if you count Taiwan Jones. I'm sure I've missed others.

 

[GoEagles]

PR knows what he's talking about on this.

DJ Martin a former Cal recruit who didn't qualify and was a prop 48 eat EWU before flunking out of EWU (not sure how he managed that)
Keonte White - 2 star recruit - prop 48
Ronald Baines - prop 48
Anthony Larry - prop 48
T.J. Lee III - prop 48

Former stud RB Jesse Chatman - prop 48 (not a Baldwin recruit)

Not football but NBA star and former EWU hoop player Rodney Stuckey - prop 48

About seven players in 20 years? UM has certainly taken some gambles in that time period.
I was one of those Griz fans who parroted the rumor that Eastern athletics benefited from lower admission standards until a former UM athletic director informed me that the standards really weren't all that different. Really, the only significant difference are the stated minimum scores for the ACT or SAT, students choice.
EWU uses the scores for placement and doesn't have a minimum. Montana universities require a minimum composite ACT of 22, which would give UM better than average students were it not for the long list of exceptions to the standard.
UM will also take a combined 1540 SAT, which is barely better than the average for all test takers first and second try.
If a student can't get a 1540, he can still be admitted with a 2.5 high school gpa and the right courses.
If the high school gpa of 2.5 is too tough, a student can still get in if they rank in the top half of their graduating class. The top half! That pretty much opens to the door to everyone with a pulse and suddenly UM and EWU really aren't that different. The NCAA rules for would-be student athletes are, of course, the same at both schools.

The real question about prop 48 students should be if whether they're graduating and not only that but whether they graduate in four years. If they don't graduate in four years, then they only get to play for three. EWU has done fairly well at keeping their prop 48 athletes on the four-year graduation track.

Are there DJ Martins? Sure. But Montana has taken some big gambles, also. CJ Atkins was such a bad student that after being recruited by Pflu at WSU and enrolling in the spring, he was ineligible by the time fall practice started. He literally had to re-enroll in high school to qualify for admission at College of the Canyons, after which Pflu recruited CJ a second time. If Atkins wasn't a "lower qualifier" then who is?

Thanks for this post, griz4life. As an aside, I normally try to ignore baiting on forums and focus on the posts from folks like me who just enjoy a good game, but I'll admit to getting a bit frustrated at the repeated posts from certain griz fans that characterize EWU as a terrible school with a terrible academic reputation.

It's just not true, on either count. Both EWU and UM are quality schools with lots of good programs, and neither is terribly selective. In fact, a quick look at US News descriptions of the schools lists Montana as "selective" and EWU as "less selective" based on the SAT and ACT minimums you reference...but a look at the acceptance rates tells a different story: EWU admits 78.2% of it's applicants, whereas UM admits 95.7% - so we turn away over 20% of our applicants, and UM less than 5%.

Neither school is academically elite, but both are good, solid schools. In fact, at EWU, we don't necessarily see our lower SAT/ACT scores as a weakness - regularly, over 50% of our students are first-generation college students...the first people in their families to ever earn a college degree. Hard-working students who often haven't had the family support or educational models for success are given the chance to elevate themselves (and many subsequent generations of their families) at EWU. Some of those students won't make it to graduation, but lots of them cherish the opportunity to get a degree, bust their asses, and make great lives for themselves. It matters.

Sorry for the pedantic post, and much respect to UM and its football program. I expect the trolls on both sides to troll, but it's nice to hear from sensible folks as well. Looking forward to a good game.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Between UM and EWU, if anyone looked at which athletic department benefits more from Prop 48 and second chance kids, the answer is absolutely clear. Giving those kids a chance might be noble, or it might be opportunistic. But I think the outcome is what PR is getting at. And I'm glad we don't play that game at UM. The issue is not really up for debate. Hope this helps.

 

[GoEagles]

Between UM and EWU, if anyone looked at which athletic department benefits more from Prop 48 and second chance kids, the answer is absolutely clear. Giving those kids a chance might be noble, or it might be opportunistic. But I think the outcome is what PR is getting at. And I'm glad we don't play that game at UM. The issue is not really up for debate. Hope this helps.

To be clear, my post was an "aside" because I wasn't really addressing the Prop 48 issue (which I know was the point of the thread), but making a more global point in response to statements made on multiple threads labeling EWU as a lousy school. This just seemed like perhaps the best place to respond to those posts (as it was a somewhat related point). Certainly the primary motive in recruiting Prop 48 players are to add to the strength of the team...but I don't think that accounts for the strength of our current lineup.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Between UM and EWU, if anyone looked at which athletic department benefits more from Prop 48 and second chance kids, the answer is absolutely clear. Giving those kids a chance might be noble, or it might be opportunistic. But I think the outcome is what PR is getting at. And I'm glad we don't play that game at UM. The issue is not really up for debate. Hope this helps.

To be clear, my post was an "aside" because I wasn't really addressing the Prop 48 issue (which I know was the point of the thread), but making a more global point in response to statements made on multiple threads labeling EWU as a lousy school. This just seemed like perhaps the best place to respond to those posts (as it was a somewhat related point). Certainly the primary motive in recruiting Prop 48 players are to add to the strength of the team...but I don't think that accounts for the strength of our current lineup.

Fair enough. But it really is clear which program seeks to benefit from the Prop 48 and high risk kids. Whether is plays out on the field is another story, as you note. I'm just thankful that UM stays out of that arena for the most part.

P.S. You're not in bad company. When I worked in the athletic department at UCLA, I was shocked to learn that Berkeley (the flagship) allowed 25 "special admits" on the football team under Tedford. Special admits were players who wouldn't otherwise qualify academically. UCLA, at that time, only allowed for five special admits for the football team. As part of my job, I reviewed every single application for every current player in football, basketball, baseball, and women's volleyball. The lowest SAT of the bunch was 990. He or she was lowest by a LOT. I won't name names, but it wasn't a football player, and you probably know his or her name. That, along with many other things, made me respect that department and institution.

 

[Grizzlies1982]

Between UM and EWU, if anyone looked at which athletic department benefits more from Prop 48 and second chance kids, the answer is absolutely clear. Giving those kids a chance might be noble, or it might be opportunistic. But I think the outcome is what PR is getting at. And I'm glad we don't play that game at UM. The issue is not really up for debate. Hope this helps.

To be clear, my post was an "aside" because I wasn't really addressing the Prop 48 issue (which I know was the point of the thread), but making a more global point in response to statements made on multiple threads labeling EWU as a lousy school. This just seemed like perhaps the best place to respond to those posts (as it was a somewhat related point). Certainly the primary motive in recruiting Prop 48 players are to add to the strength of the team...but I don't think that accounts for the strength of our current lineup.

GoEagles, I appreciate what you've added to this board. You've made some good sensible points. However, realize comments about Cheney being a meth infested community college are about what you might expect on an opponent's fan board.

You will continue to find such comments. Don't take any of it personal. It is just what it is. Your Eagles have an exciting football team. I look forward to seeing our guys beat them on Saturday! :ugeek:

 

[GoEagles]

Between UM and EWU, if anyone looked at which athletic department benefits more from Prop 48 and second chance kids, the answer is absolutely clear. Giving those kids a chance might be noble, or it might be opportunistic. But I think the outcome is what PR is getting at. And I'm glad we don't play that game at UM. The issue is not really up for debate. Hope this helps.

To be clear, my post was an "aside" because I wasn't really addressing the Prop 48 issue (which I know was the point of the thread), but making a more global point in response to statements made on multiple threads labeling EWU as a lousy school. This just seemed like perhaps the best place to respond to those posts (as it was a somewhat related point). Certainly the primary motive in recruiting Prop 48 players are to add to the strength of the team...but I don't think that accounts for the strength of our current lineup.

GoEagles, I appreciate what you've added to this board. You've made some good sensible points. However, realize comments about Cheney being a meth infested community college are about what you might expect on an opponent's fan board.

You will continue to find such comments. Don't take any of it personal. It is just what it is. Your Eagles have an exciting football team. I look forward to seeing our guys beat them on Saturday! :ugeek:

Thanks for this, and I get it. One reason I visit egriz when we've got a UM game coming up is that I enjoy the shit-talking. I just reacted to some comments from particular posters who legitimately seem to mean what they say.

And Saturday will be a good game. I think we'll take it to ya, because with VA the Eagles offense is pretty much unstoppable this year unless we give the ball away (UW), and our defense has really improved over the past few games. Honestly, I'm peeved that we have to play you this round. I'd love to play Montana again, but I'd have much rather seen an all Big-Sky championship game in Frisco!