Catsrback76
Well-known member
CDAGRIZ said:
And for that comment, he's given credit for another tackle!
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Robbie Hauck - Major Liability in Coverage
- Thread starter StumptownGriz
- Start date
And for that comment, he's given credit for another tackle!
AllWeatherFan said:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
StumptownGriz said:
Saw the title of this thread and I’m like the firefight is on this guy is going to get himself torched and band as a blasphemer. The great Sean Hannity once said “there are two systems of justice on this board.” Lol. I brought this up in a passing comment last summer and got totally blown up over it. On the re- play of JMUs td pass the analyst even took the time to comment on his blown coverage. They have got to take him out on 3rd and long and put in a faster taller guy like say Graves maybe. It was the playoffs, we have to do what’s best situationally. Fuck every time he gets beat or over pursues it’s like dude your dads the coach show some discipline and read don’t react to every fake. Keep everything in front even if you have to sacrifice some tackles. It’s really not that hard he’s not a freshman anymore. The jmu coach was suprised they never went back to man. I believe when they play man it totally exposes him. So they don’t.
Ps. I think I figured it out, he gets tackles by proxy when he’s taken out on 3rd and long; or after he breaks the tackle record they starting sitting him on passing situations. Lol
So when they are in man where is he supposed to be? They just don’t play it much which is a problem against a team like JMU. Just saying it’s pretty apparent and there is never seems to be any kind of adjustment or personal change which is frustrating as hell.PDXGrizzly said:
AZGrizFan said:
Still waiting for an answer to this question. Who (at safety) do you put in the game that you feel comfortable that’s going to be able run with a “fast WR”? Fouch? Graves? Cotton? Koppang? Who? I’ve seen literally every ONE of them get burned in their limited playing time…they’re not immune. That’s why they call it a “mismatch”. Get a LB or safety on a “fast WR” and it’s where the QB is going to go 90% of the time. It ain’t rocket science.
As a psych teacher I love the defense mechanism of saying "I'm going to talk about Robby Hauck but I know I'll get roasted on here by maroon glasses wearing kool-aid drinkers." It gives you a handy "out" if anybody points out that your argument is weak or flawed.
That being said: when Robby gets beat deep, what coverages are we in? I have a hard time telling from the TV coverage and thanks to COVID haven't gotten to see the team live (where it's way easier to see what we are doing) but from the comments obviously lots of you have a better picture of this than I do.
Is the hypothesis that Super Bowl winner Ronnie Bradford and former NFL'er Shann Schillinger are so intimidated by Coach Hauck that even though they know they have bigger, stronger, and most importantly faster players they should be playing, they just bite their tongues?
That being said: when Robby gets beat deep, what coverages are we in? I have a hard time telling from the TV coverage and thanks to COVID haven't gotten to see the team live (where it's way easier to see what we are doing) but from the comments obviously lots of you have a better picture of this than I do.
Is the hypothesis that Super Bowl winner Ronnie Bradford and former NFL'er Shann Schillinger are so intimidated by Coach Hauck that even though they know they have bigger, stronger, and most importantly faster players they should be playing, they just bite their tongues?
Its pretty obvious that in man coverage he seems to get beat over the top on regular basis because he takes bad angles and cheats up too much and doesn’t have make up speed. They play more zone then man with him. He rarely comes out at the end of games so the younger guys aren’t seeing the field which would tend to cut down on any competition being compared to his play in man. Most DCs run players in and out based on down and distance and package, why don’t they at least give it a try and see what happens with someone else deep when they play man and leave him in when they are in zone. I don’t know what they talk about but its Bobby’s team and it’s his call. I guess still replaying the JMU game in my head and their first td was a momentum shifter and he was out of position. And we have had this discussion before and I got chainsawed for it did I not? I was commenting on this guy creating a thread about RH and was expecting some blowback. So yeah I’m a little defensive. What is the flaw in my argument that they should try different guys at safety when they are in man and see if the defense gets better?SaskGriz said:
Jesse said:
I guess I see it a little differently. There’s basically 5 safeties that get significant playing time: Robertson, Hauck, Cotton, Graves & Fouch. Three are on the field at the same time (granted, one always being Robbie, it seemed like). So the other guys (particularly Graves & Fouch) DID get lots of playing time and were no more successful than Hauck. Just not sure I see a huge gain either way. Love the way Graves & Fouch hit (just like Hauck), but I don’t think either is/was the “answer” when it comes to man coverage as a safety.
sdk.catfish
Well-known member
I guess we don't have to worry about him entering the transfer portal 
AZGrizFan said:
I think you are correct, none of the 'third' safeties are excellent in man to man pass coverage. That's why they are the 'third' safety. I think the answer in third and long situation is to take the third safety out and insert a third cornerback, who presumably is better at pass coverage. Given injuries at JMU this solution was prolly not viable last friday.
Another point to protect any CB or S is pressure on QB. At least six rushers on first TD and no pressure. I counted to three slowly watching play and there was a perfect pocket QB threw ball the rest is history.
Success starts at the lines. Their O-line with a couple new starters out played the Griz line and blitzing LBs who are up for all kinds of awards. Just one observation.
I still have not forgotten Bobby pulling Beaver for personal foul and not his own son the next series for similar flag a few games ago. Nepotism.
Griz have and will have problems with roster until they win National Championship.
Success starts at the lines. Their O-line with a couple new starters out played the Griz line and blitzing LBs who are up for all kinds of awards. Just one observation.
I still have not forgotten Bobby pulling Beaver for personal foul and not his own son the next series for similar flag a few games ago. Nepotism.
Griz have and will have problems with roster until they win National Championship.
Seems like the backfield is a product of the 3-3-5 defensive scheme. I can't say I know anything about the set-up other than what I've observed at the games which is a slot receiver running right down the seam past one of our safeties who have no deep help. Corners don't seem to be an issue but that's where the speed is...
AZGrizFan said:
Given we seem to have more than two on the field when its third and long ... one would think they all wouldn't be in man coverage and yes some deep help would be available. My point was more that these big, fast wide outs and slot receivers like those on
EWU always seem to run right past our safeties that are in man coverage and as previously discussed this is a huge problem when our blitz package is picked up and they have time to separate and the QB has plenty of time to throw. Which was just the opposite of what happened in the UW game. When the defense is disrupting all is great, when our blitz gets picked up which was more often (not always) the second half of the season the speed is exposed. So Yeah they are the deep help!
There are a few ideas to keep in mind:
#1: The slot safety to both sides of the field generally work as alley players primarily, meaning the assumption that they are reading the same things you think they read, aren't likely to be true. Their primary read is the last man on the LOS looking for a run/pass read. If you are apt to pay attention to RH/GR/ and other safety footwork, you'll notice they step down hill into the slot or sideway (looks like a shuffle step).
#2: The pass read isn't straight up look at the slot. Generally speaking they look for a vertical release (eyes on #2) but if they have an in break or out break they then work outside in. In most mixed coverage concepts, whether it is a 4-2 or 3-3, whether RH's side is playing man or zone, the read should be through number 2 to #1 (the most OS receiver).
#3: The alley player either starts at 12 and creeps down hill, even on a vertical release, or shuffle sideways at 10 -12 yards. This compresses the recovery space, and in most cases they aren't taught to play over the top of the seam but rather conflict and trail. Leads to some big plays time to time, but generally this philosophy is pretty effective at forcing the QB to put air under the ball that helps with recovery time.
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From a coaching perspective, defending the slot release is pretty difficult. In the spread era, most defensive guys have stopped trying to get a hand on #2 because it stretches you so much in run support. If you put your hand on #2 because of how far out a lot of the 2x2 and 3x1 put #2, you either stretch your OLB or SS so far out they are turning their back to run support. So the goal for a lot of teams who have committed to 5 or 6 DB's is to go 3 over 2 eligible receivers (1 CB, 1 safety and a edge player). That doesn't always happen, but your goal is to prevent the the quick seam by putting a guy (typically someone like Hauck) in the QB's vision so he doesn't fire that quickly. You are giving up some soft slant coverage but the overall goal is to rep the down hill alley track so that receivers are less likely going to want to come across the middle on the shallow under routes against the safeties.
Plus one thing to remember, is that for the totality of snaps over the course of the year, teams didn't exactly brutalize the middle of the field. This is a bit of lets fit a low percentage of plays (lets say 5% of total snaps all year) into a larger narrative about a player and a defense. It is one thing to say Robby is slow and can't cover a slot guy who runs a 4.4 in a vertical foot race, because the reality is there are four guys at the FCS that can be tasked to do that.
Moreover, the number of times I have heard 'botched' coverage from a TV analyst over the past 10 years when they are talking about a seam release where merely they were beat in man coverage, I'd be a rich man. Too many of them still think they are looking at some sort of shell coverage, and its just man. That's it. When you send pressure and the offense is able to heave (Barrierre style) a floated vertical seam route, you tip your cap and move on. Its not failure, in most cases and much of the defensive staff will second this, the offense merely executed. It is one thing if teams are completing 3-5 of these routes a game for big plays, but they aren't. Most of the season we might have 1 or 2 plays.
I get that some don't like it, or just don't like Robby, but they aren't going to sub Robbie out on third downs. He's not a liability in the way that many think he is, but rather he is doing exactly what is asked of him on a great many snaps. Your issue is with the scheme then and not Hauck. To that the criticism is fair, but for the staff and a lot of 3-3-5 guys the benefits of the system far outweigh the risks.
#1: The slot safety to both sides of the field generally work as alley players primarily, meaning the assumption that they are reading the same things you think they read, aren't likely to be true. Their primary read is the last man on the LOS looking for a run/pass read. If you are apt to pay attention to RH/GR/ and other safety footwork, you'll notice they step down hill into the slot or sideway (looks like a shuffle step).
#2: The pass read isn't straight up look at the slot. Generally speaking they look for a vertical release (eyes on #2) but if they have an in break or out break they then work outside in. In most mixed coverage concepts, whether it is a 4-2 or 3-3, whether RH's side is playing man or zone, the read should be through number 2 to #1 (the most OS receiver).
#3: The alley player either starts at 12 and creeps down hill, even on a vertical release, or shuffle sideways at 10 -12 yards. This compresses the recovery space, and in most cases they aren't taught to play over the top of the seam but rather conflict and trail. Leads to some big plays time to time, but generally this philosophy is pretty effective at forcing the QB to put air under the ball that helps with recovery time.
---
From a coaching perspective, defending the slot release is pretty difficult. In the spread era, most defensive guys have stopped trying to get a hand on #2 because it stretches you so much in run support. If you put your hand on #2 because of how far out a lot of the 2x2 and 3x1 put #2, you either stretch your OLB or SS so far out they are turning their back to run support. So the goal for a lot of teams who have committed to 5 or 6 DB's is to go 3 over 2 eligible receivers (1 CB, 1 safety and a edge player). That doesn't always happen, but your goal is to prevent the the quick seam by putting a guy (typically someone like Hauck) in the QB's vision so he doesn't fire that quickly. You are giving up some soft slant coverage but the overall goal is to rep the down hill alley track so that receivers are less likely going to want to come across the middle on the shallow under routes against the safeties.
Plus one thing to remember, is that for the totality of snaps over the course of the year, teams didn't exactly brutalize the middle of the field. This is a bit of lets fit a low percentage of plays (lets say 5% of total snaps all year) into a larger narrative about a player and a defense. It is one thing to say Robby is slow and can't cover a slot guy who runs a 4.4 in a vertical foot race, because the reality is there are four guys at the FCS that can be tasked to do that.
Moreover, the number of times I have heard 'botched' coverage from a TV analyst over the past 10 years when they are talking about a seam release where merely they were beat in man coverage, I'd be a rich man. Too many of them still think they are looking at some sort of shell coverage, and its just man. That's it. When you send pressure and the offense is able to heave (Barrierre style) a floated vertical seam route, you tip your cap and move on. Its not failure, in most cases and much of the defensive staff will second this, the offense merely executed. It is one thing if teams are completing 3-5 of these routes a game for big plays, but they aren't. Most of the season we might have 1 or 2 plays.
I get that some don't like it, or just don't like Robby, but they aren't going to sub Robbie out on third downs. He's not a liability in the way that many think he is, but rather he is doing exactly what is asked of him on a great many snaps. Your issue is with the scheme then and not Hauck. To that the criticism is fair, but for the staff and a lot of 3-3-5 guys the benefits of the system far outweigh the risks.
Bear Spray
Well-known member
Jesse said:
Choose your poison. If you pull him in passing situations do you have a better player to replace him with, or do you just have another scape goat? Your coaches must believe your all-time tackling leader adds something to the passing D & they're pretty good at evaluating the talent. I agree though, he's easy to criticize in pass D.
