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President Engstrom on KUFM

UMGriz75 said:
Tokyogriz said:
1 - Royce Engstroms involvement and lack of it in this complete disaster will NOT BE FORGOTTEN by UM alumns, Fans, and the people of Montana EVER. Many are angry about his horrendous lack of leadership, initiative and his obvious firing of Jim Oday and Robin Pflugrad to cover his own ass in this mess. We will not forget and what we the people of Montana, UM alumns and supporters think DOES MATTER.

If the Missoulian ever gets around to an "analysis," that will be the real story here.

Engstrom, for whatever reasons, wanted to appear "in charge." In commissioning Diane Barz to do an "investigation," he did nothing more than commission the collection of mostly hearsay, of the kind that would always appear damning in nearly any context. That's the nature of hearsay. And, compacting between three and five years of it into one report makes it look like "something that isn't."

Well, Engstrom wanted to "show something," and he did that. He drew attention to something that, growing out of hearsay, "demanded attention." OK, he got it. After flubbing the Saudi student incident -- and claiming that it "was the best" response -- he is starting to feel the heat.

In all of this, the Athletic Department was the ONLY consistent player, imposing sanctions and disciplinary actions on players -- whether or not charges were filed -- simply for being "involved" in any allegation.

Compare and contrast the Athletic Department's consistent imposition of disciplinary measures with that of Engstrom and Couture. The Dean of Students has more authority over student athletes than the coaches do, yet Couture did little although the diversity of his responses was remarkable, ranging from warning the alleged perpetrator to expulsion. Couture's message? Hard to tell. It apparently depends on who you are and what your religion is.

Ultimately, Engstrom did just what he set out to do: attract attention to his leadership. He really thought he could show "the high road" and that he "was in charge."

Yet, that approach backfired completely into a widespread and well-publicized elevation of hearsay into "allegations" into ... as Couture wrongly and stupidly claimed in one email ... it was gang rape "because that's what it was," even though the Missoula PD couldn't get past the voluntary testimony of a key female witness that, in fact, it wasn't; it was far from it and charges were never filed because there was, in fact, no evidence to support those charges. It was an outright libel of the athletes for Couture to make that claim. It was an outrageous slander of the University of Montana by one of its own officers.

Together, Engstrom and Couture have both exercised extremely poor judgment; Engstrom in framing a public forum for hearsay, which is always a dangerous course; Couture for simply fabricating a lie about the players and calling it a truth.

Collecting and disseminating accumulated hearsay under the imprimatur of an "official" proceeding is a tyro's mistake. And that's all that was. It was an extraordinary mis-step. It is difficult to see what Engstrom expected as a result; he appears to have been much more invested in the appearance of "doing something," even if it was guaranteed to produce a veritable lynch mob -- the inevitable reaction to unfiltered hearsay reports.

And yet, as a good example, the Athletic Department, not Couture or Engstrom, imposed disciplinary sanctions on the players involved simply because they had shown poor judgment; but those penalties were imposed no thanks to Barz, Engstrom, or any of the rest of the stampeding herd of self-righteous cows. Indeed, the irony is that in that instance Pflugrad was alleged to have imposed the sanctions on the players WITHOUT having advised Their Majesties in Main Hall regarding allegations which had been shown by independent investigation to be groundless.

To me that is a remarkable spectacle. The Athletic Department appears to have consistently imposed disciplinary measures. Main Hall appears consistent only in flying off in all directions, imposing on accused students wildly disparate and inconsistent treatments, after having drawn attention to ... what?

Over six months later, every allegation dredged up by Barz remains hearsay, despite the heightened attention and focus on them. Indeed, there is a remarkable inability to focus and identify specific wrongs that the University may have done, or alleged crimes that may have been perpetrated, outside of the inevitability of the hearsay culture -- which is the real "culture" that has infected this whole debacle.

The single charge actually brought -- before any of this blew up, notably -- involved a purely personal relationship, in a relationship long predating his college days, with the alleged victim choosing to spend the night at the young man's home. Nothing, so far, to offer a debate about because the details are so personal, but the fact is, the significant details have nothing to do with college, athletics, the teams, the coach, or the AD., nor anything they could do about it. But, typically, the Athletic Department had directly acted against the student-athlete with a complete team suspension, which was appropriate and, again, Engstrom decided he needed to look like he was "in charge" of something even though the Athletic Department had already acted quickly and appropriately.

Remarkably, after all that Engstrom has wrought, there remains a single charge involving sexual assault, a charge unrelated to the accused's college or athletic experience, and for all the tumult, a charge predating whatever it was that Engstrom thought he was going to fix, or expose, or whatever it was that he thought he was doing.

In fact, the single charge involving a sexual charge over the past three years was investigated, the alleged perpetrator charged, and the appropriate suspension immediately imposed by the AD and the Coach.

Everything did, in fact, function as it was supposed to.

If there was more to do, where was Couture? Engstrom? The Saudi episode came afterwards. Their actions there certainly did not show the consistency nor the loyalty to process and justice that the AD and Coach demonstrated; and the Saudi episode involved multiple assaults and violence as well; facts that the Administration chose to treat far differently and more leniently than the Athletic Department treated allegations against team members.

Seven months on into "the scandal," the single sexual assault charge filed was filed before Engstrom decided to "commission a study," before there was a "scandal," nothing has been charged since, and the only practical outcome so far has been the firing of two good men who, in fact, did their jobs and did them well.

I don't care who ya are, that right there was some real good writin, lol. After reading something that well written, I realize I'm at about a 5th grade writing level.
 
SAMSDAD said:
I don't care who ya are, that right there was some real good writin, lol. After reading something that well written, I realize I'm at about a 5th grade writing level.

I feel bad for Sam.
 
UMGriz75 said:
Tokyogriz said:
1 - Royce Engstroms involvement and lack of it in this complete disaster will NOT BE FORGOTTEN by UM alumns, Fans, and the people of Montana EVER. Many are angry about his horrendous lack of leadership, initiative and his obvious firing of Jim Oday and Robin Pflugrad to cover his own ass in this mess. We will not forget and what we the people of Montana, UM alumns and supporters think DOES MATTER.

If the Missoulian ever gets around to an "analysis," that will be the real story here.

Engstrom, for whatever reasons, wanted to appear "in charge." In commissioning Diane Barz to do an "investigation," he did nothing more than commission the collection of mostly hearsay, of the kind that would always appear damning in nearly any context. That's the nature of hearsay. And, compacting between three and five years of it into one report makes it look like "something that isn't."

Well, Engstrom wanted to "show something," and he did that. He drew attention to something that, growing out of hearsay, "demanded attention." OK, he got it. After flubbing the Saudi student incident -- and claiming that it "was the best" response -- he is starting to feel the heat.

In all of this, the Athletic Department was the ONLY consistent player, imposing sanctions and disciplinary actions on players -- whether or not charges were filed -- simply for being "involved" in any allegation.

Compare and contrast the Athletic Department's consistent imposition of disciplinary measures with that of Engstrom and Couture. The Dean of Students has more authority over student athletes than the coaches do, yet Couture did little although the diversity of his responses was remarkable, ranging from warning the alleged perpetrator to expulsion. Couture's message? Hard to tell. It apparently depends on who you are and what your religion is.

Ultimately, Engstrom did just what he set out to do: attract attention to his leadership. He really thought he could show "the high road" and that he "was in charge."

Yet, that approach backfired completely into a widespread and well-publicized elevation of hearsay into "allegations" into ... as Couture wrongly and stupidly claimed in one email ... it was gang rape "because that's what it was," even though the Missoula PD couldn't get past the voluntary testimony of a key female witness that, in fact, it wasn't; it was far from it and charges were never filed because there was, in fact, no evidence to support those charges. It was an outright libel of the athletes for Couture to make that claim. It was an outrageous slander of the University of Montana by one of its own officers.

Together, Engstrom and Couture have both exercised extremely poor judgment; Engstrom in framing a public forum for hearsay, which is always a dangerous course; Couture for simply fabricating a lie about the players and calling it a truth.

Collecting and disseminating accumulated hearsay under the imprimatur of an "official" proceeding is a tyro's mistake. And that's all that was. It was an extraordinary mis-step. It is difficult to see what Engstrom expected as a result; he appears to have been much more invested in the appearance of "doing something," even if it was guaranteed to produce a veritable lynch mob -- the inevitable reaction to unfiltered hearsay reports.

And yet, as a good example, the Athletic Department, not Couture or Engstrom, imposed disciplinary sanctions on the players involved simply because they had shown poor judgment; but those penalties were imposed no thanks to Barz, Engstrom, or any of the rest of the stampeding herd of self-righteous cows. Indeed, the irony is that in that instance Pflugrad was alleged to have imposed the sanctions on the players WITHOUT having advised Their Majesties in Main Hall regarding allegations which had been shown by independent investigation to be groundless.

To me that is a remarkable spectacle. The Athletic Department appears to have consistently imposed disciplinary measures. Main Hall appears consistent only in flying off in all directions, imposing on accused students wildly disparate and inconsistent treatments, after having drawn attention to ... what?

Over six months later, every allegation dredged up by Barz remains hearsay, despite the heightened attention and focus on them. Indeed, there is a remarkable inability to focus and identify specific wrongs that the University may have done, or alleged crimes that may have been perpetrated, outside of the inevitability of the hearsay culture -- which is the real "culture" that has infected this whole debacle.

The single charge actually brought -- before any of this blew up, notably -- involved a purely personal relationship, in a relationship long predating his college days, with the alleged victim choosing to spend the night at the young man's home. Nothing, so far, to offer a debate about because the details are so personal, but the fact is, the significant details have nothing to do with college, athletics, the teams, the coach, or the AD., nor anything they could do about it. But, typically, the Athletic Department had directly acted against the student-athlete with a complete team suspension, which was appropriate and, again, Engstrom decided he needed to look like he was "in charge" of something even though the Athletic Department had already acted quickly and appropriately.

Remarkably, after all that Engstrom has wrought, there remains a single charge involving sexual assault, a charge unrelated to the accused's college or athletic experience, and for all the tumult, a charge predating whatever it was that Engstrom thought he was going to fix, or expose, or whatever it was that he thought he was doing.

In fact, the single charge involving a sexual charge over the past three years was investigated, the alleged perpetrator charged, and the appropriate suspension immediately imposed by the AD and the Coach.

Everything did, in fact, function as it was supposed to.

If there was more to do, where was Couture? Engstrom? The Saudi episode came afterwards. Their actions there certainly did not show the consistency nor the loyalty to process and justice that the AD and Coach demonstrated; and the Saudi episode involved multiple assaults and violence as well; facts that the Administration chose to treat far differently and more leniently than the Athletic Department treated allegations against team members.

Seven months on into "the scandal," the single sexual assault charge filed was filed before Engstrom decided to "commission a study," before there was a "scandal," nothing has been charged since, and the only practical outcome so far has been the firing of two good men who, in fact, did their jobs and did them well.

Assuming your facts are correct, 75, that's a very good summary. It's an even better indictment of the newspaper.

Dan Rather often talks about the "trivialization of the news" in today's media. The Missoulian's coverage is a perfect example. As 75 points out, there is no "analysis" involved, no attempt whatsoever to discover the facts. Just a titillating recitation of hearsay, with a few catch phrases thrown in and constantly repeated for dramatic effect.

Some day the truth will be known. And maybe some heads will roll. But it will be in spite of the media coverage, not because of it. And that is why I make fun of the Missoulian.
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Assuming your facts are correct, 75, that's a very good summary. It's an even better indictment of the newspaper.

Dan Rather often talks about the "trivialization of the news" in today's media. The Missoulian's coverage is a perfect example. As 75 points out, there is no "analysis" involved, no attempt whatsoever to discover the facts. Just a titillating recitation of hearsay, with a few catch phrases thrown in and constantly repeated for dramatic effect.

Some day the truth will be known. And maybe some heads will roll. But it will be in spite of the media coverage, not because of it. And that is why I make fun of the Missoulian.
hasn't the missoulian asked engstrom, foley, pflugrad, o'day and others what's going on? they have, but you seem to be trivializing their effort. not only have they attempted to reach those people, but they've also tried to speak to some of the accusers, maybe all of them, and have been criticized for that. is a newspaper supposed to look the other way when these accusations are made or investigate? we can't have it both ways and i tend to wish for the former. to that end they've been asking the necessary questions and pointing out the flawed comments of the administration going so far as the f.o.i. route. what else are they supposed to do?
 
I totally understand the frustration with the firings, and how that appears to look on paper... when Kramer got the boot I was livid, and I thought and still feel at some level that Fields threw him under the bus to save his own ass... and I also realize there were probably some other things that were never made public that led to the firing.

I think you guys need to realize that there may be things getting uncovered in these investigations that absolutely justify the firings... and you may never know the whole story.
 
getgrizzy said:
hasn't the missoulian asked engstrom, foley, pflugrad, o'day and others what's going on? they have, but you seem to be trivializing their effort. not only have they attempted to reach those people, but they've also tried to speak to some of the accusers, maybe all of them, and have been criticized for that. is a newspaper supposed to look the other way when these accusations are made or investigate? we can't have it both ways and i tend to wish for the former. to that end they've been asking the necessary questions and pointing out the flawed comments of the administration going so far as the f.o.i. route. what else are they supposed to do?

I think the reporting has been absolutely horrendous. The University is clearly fair game, and it's completely fair to go after university officials, but with the exception of a few inept comments and statements by Foley, the paper has been pumping out rumor and innuendo, not news. It's a blog mentality in the newsroom these days. Tell me this: what facts do you now know about the alleged incidents that you didn't know six months ago, thanks to the Missoulian's reporting?
 
UMGriz75: Here's the link for finding email addresses for the Regents - and Higher Ed Commisar Clayton Christian. Your excellent post is well worth passing on... If it were mine I would, but it isn't..It's yours...

http://mus.edu/board/BORmembers.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
getgrizzy said:
AllWeatherFan said:
Assuming your facts are correct, 75, that's a very good summary. It's an even better indictment of the newspaper.

Dan Rather often talks about the "trivialization of the news" in today's media. The Missoulian's coverage is a perfect example. As 75 points out, there is no "analysis" involved, no attempt whatsoever to discover the facts. Just a titillating recitation of hearsay, with a few catch phrases thrown in and constantly repeated for dramatic effect.

Some day the truth will be known. And maybe some heads will roll. But it will be in spite of the media coverage, not because of it. And that is why I make fun of the Missoulian.
hasn't the missoulian asked engstrom, foley, pflugrad, o'day and others what's going on? they have, but you seem to be trivializing their effort. not only have they attempted to reach those people, but they've also tried to speak to some of the accusers, maybe all of them, and have been criticized for that. is a newspaper supposed to look the other way when these accusations are made or investigate? we can't have it both ways and i tend to wish for the former. to that end they've been asking the necessary questions and pointing out the flawed comments of the administration going so far as the f.o.i. route. what else are they supposed to do?

My problem with the Missoulian, is how Florio painted the picture of Jordan Johnson, without knowing if indeed he is guilty, or not. Either A, paint that picture of all the accused, or paint it with none of them. I don't care what she does with her career. I will never respect this woman professionally, and because of her is why, I read their competition's articles. She leaves the Missoulian, and they go get away from tabloid reporting, I will follow them again. Just hearing one of the accused rip her, is enough for me to want this nightmare to end.
 
how can every allegation be "hearsay" when the person making the allegation is the alleged victim? most of the allegations haven't been proven in a court of law, but they certainly aren't hearsay.
 
argh! said:
how can every allegation be "hearsay" when the person making the allegation is the alleged victim? most of the allegations haven't been proven in a court of law, but they certainly aren't hearsay.

From reading the Missoulian articles, the Barz reports and some egriz posts, it looks like the Missoulian may have talked only to one accuser of gang rape, i.e. the accuser from the Dec. 2010 matter. That one seems to have been pretty much discredited, with the police apparently refusing, twice, to pursue the matter due to lack of evidence, and the university panel apparently recently siding with the players in what has been mentioned as a 7-0 vote. The Barz report said the victim(s) in the Dec. 2011 matter refused to talk to the university after the media contacted her. I assume the victim probably didn't talk to the media (I assume Missoulian) when the call came, if she then got irked and quit talking to anyone. I'm not so sure that this incident ever actually was a gang rape/assault situation, as that was never very clear. In any event, doesn't it seem that the Dec. 2011 incident or incidents have disappeared?
 
poorgriz said:
I totally understand the frustration with the firings, and how that appears to look on paper... when Kramer got the boot I was livid, and I thought and still feel at some level that Fields threw him under the bus to save his own ass... and I also realize there were probably some other things that were never made public that led to the firing.

I think you guys need to realize that there may be things getting uncovered in these investigations that absolutely justify the firings... and you may never know the whole story.

I felt that Kramer was made a scapegoat, but at too far of a distance to be able to develop a firm opinion. But, unfortunately, this post also represents the damage that these firings do: create the "suspicion" on the face of an unjustified firing that "they must know something else."

The Duke LaCrosse scandal is a good example, wherein all the king's horses and all the king's men surely were justified in demanding vengeance against soccer players -- faculty carrying signs demanding "castration," major news media pronouncing guilt -- only to unravel when the political/media complex was exposed for the misandry that was really at work there.

The faculty, including the University President Richard Brodhed, not only didn't "know more," they had explicitly falsified the entire narrative to support a predetermined conclusion of guilt driven in large part by political agendas that could agree, culturally, on one thing: white boys playing sports are, as Gwen Florio "reported" in a "news article" in a former local "newspaper," corrupted by a "testosterone-soaked universe," and simply guilty by association with the culture, not the actual fact of anything.

That, "to save the University," it was OK to sacrifice a few athletes on the altar of political correctness.

Sometimes there can be more than meets the eye. Sometimes less. Reading on this forum -- and not, notably, in the former local newspaper -- that Engstrom had never even bothered to do, over an 18 month period, a performance review with his key athletic coach, never had a discussion about any of these issues, never sat down and established a policy or guidelines, and then fired two good men because Engstrom was getting some bad publicity from the Saudi incident, tells me that there is "more than meets the eye" but not in regards to the Athletic Department.
 
wbtfg said:
SAMSDAD said:
I don't care who ya are, that right there was some real good writin, lol. After reading something that well written, I realize I'm at about a 5th grade writing level.

I feel bad for Sam.

Sam's got a great Dad! I've known him from long before there was a "Sam!"
 
grizdoc said:
Tokyogriz said:
I have requested all recorded conversations (written or spoken) between Engstrom and the BOR regarding the firing (Non-renewal) of Jim Oday and Robin Pflugrads contracts as well as anything regarding the NCAA investigation into the University of Montana as is my right in the Montana constitutuion.

The Montana public records law under Montana Code 2-6-101 et seq. states that citizens are entitled to public records in the state. However, the Montana Constitution states that no person may be denied such records. The Constitution trumps statute, so anyone may request public documents in Montana, based on the following, “no person shall be deprived of the right to examine documents or to observe the deliberations of all public bodies.”
http://freedomofinformationacts.uslegal.com/state-freedom-of-information-acts/montana/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While I applaud your right to request this information. I hate to tell you that an uphill battle is ahead of you. You will be provided information on the NCAA investigation, however the other portions of your request will denied for this reason:

(3) Records and materials that are constitutionally protected from disclosure are not subject to the provisions of this section. Information that is constitutionally protected from disclosure is information in which there is an individual privacy interest that clearly exceeds the merits of public disclosure, including legitimate trade secrets, as defined in 30-14-402, and matters related to individual or public safety

http://law.justia.com/codes/montana/2005/2/2-6-102.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While you have constitutional rights, Mr. O'Day and Mr. Pflugrad both have a constitutional right to privacy which I doubt they have waived at this point. Montana is one of the strictest states when it comes to an indivdual's right to privacy. This is a personnel matter and the rights for privacy supersedes the publics need to know. Now, if a case is filed (which is doubtful), the communications will come out. If a case is filed, I will guarantee it will be settled out of court.

Finally, Cahty Swift is one of if not the finest education/personnel law attorneys in the State of Montana and she will eat your lunch.
Is there an absolute Constitutional Right to privacy?
 
Not at all, it's a balancing test: the public's right to know versus individual privacy interest. And the higher-level the position, the less likely the courts are to find a legitimate privacy interest.
 
UMGriz75 said:
That, "to save the University," it was OK to sacrifice a few athletes on the altar of political correctness.
Also to note, in the instance of the Duke LaCrosse Scandal, the LaCrosse Coach was immediately fired because of what the athletes had "allegedly" done. He received death threats and his children were threatened as well, by the enlightened members of the Victim community.

Later, after everything blew up and the charges were shown to be completely false -- the Attorney General of North Carolina specifically stated, "these boys were innocent" -- and although the district attorney was disbarred for filing a knowingly false information and seeking a conviction -- the accuser was never prosecuted for filing a false report although she was later charged twice with other crimes, including five counts of child abuse, and finally including the murder of her boyfriend which she is currently being held in jail for pending trial.

But, she was "the Victim" you see.

The president of Duke University never apologized to the LaCrosse Coach, Mike Pressler, after 16 years at Duke and just coming off of an NCAA championship.
 
Any of you ever think that maybe Engstrom (& I'm not defending him) knows more about all this than he can say & the firings are justified? I was as pissed off & still am about all this as anyone out there, but just to flat out say Engstrom f@#%$# up without knowing all the facts is wrong. We may never know what really happened & what's been covered up.
 
Time to uncover it.

I just called um legal council Aronofsky and demanded to know if he, Engstrom or anyone at um requested the doj investigation. After trying to avoid answering anything he finally said he did not do so nor to his knowledge did anyone at UM.

I still suspect UM or someone involved with UM called in the DOJ to try to cover their own assess.
 
Tokyogriz said:
Time to uncover it.

I just called um legal council Aronofsky and demanded to know if he, Engstrom or anyone at um requested the don investigation. After trying to avoid answering anything he finally said he did not do so nor to his knowledge did anyone at UM.

I still suspect UM or someone involved with UM called in the DOJ to try to cover their own assess.
Wow. You're really on a mission here. The phrase "be careful what you wish for" comes to mind...
 
Tokyo has displayed determination and courage in a quest to uncover truth in this horrible cesspool. Good work Tokyo! :thumb:
 
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