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Pick & roll

AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen

AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen

Well-known member
Why can't we run a basic pick and roll offense? Really? I wrote the reasoning on my blog but don't feel like linking...

ah, here it is:
It sounds dumb, doesn't it? It's right there with the Princeton Offense as one of the most basic gameplans in all of basketball. Opponents should be able to pick up on it and defend easily, right? If this were the case, why would the Phoenix Suns, possibly the NBA's most effective offense, continue to go to it?

Imagine, Jordan Hasquet could be a whiter, hairier and slower Big Sky version of Amare Stoudamire. It'd be great. Toss in Cam Rundles or CET as a de facto Steve Nash and you have it. Why can't this work? Let's take a look at the possibilities while running a basic, top of the key, Cam/Jordo pick and roll:

* Cam gets pick, drives down lane and lays it up and in on sleepy defense
* Cam gets pick, defense recovers too late and he's fouled
* Defense swarms, Cam kicks it to Staudacher or Martin for wide open three
* Cam drives down lane, help-side D comes, Cam lays it off to Drew for a dunk.
* Defense tries to jump under screen, Cam hits jumper from the elbow
* Both defenders jump on Cam, bounce pass to Jordo for thunderous dunk
* Cam passes to Jordo off screen, Jordo gets fouled.
* Griz run pick and pop. Cam gets screen, D follows him down the lane, he passes back to Jordo for three.

Just a few of many plays that can come in a solid pick and roll offense. Yeah, it's basic, so what? We haven't won a D-1 game since November, anything this simple is worth a shot.
 
I just want to see this because it's so damn basic. Also, it FORCES cam to be a playmaker. It forces him to consider all options. Give him that floor general mentality and put him in a position where he has to do this. It makes him a true point guard instead of this crappy pseudo 2 he's been playing.
 
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
I just want to see this because it's so damn basic. Also, it FORCES cam to be a playmaker. It forces him to consider all options. Give him that floor general mentality and put him in a position where he has to do this. It makes him a true point guard instead of this crappy pseudo 2 he's been playing.
Click to expand...

Your idea is not as far fetched as some might think. The man who is credited as inventing (The celtics under red Auerbach used it) the offense, taught it to the Sacramento Kings when Vlade Divac was there and they were very successful with it. The Kings lineup was similar to the Griz, in that they had some big guys and overall not as athletic on the perimeter as the competition, but some good shooters. Pete Carrill is not doing anything. I bet he would be happy to come out and teach Tinks. Here is alink that explains the Princeton Offense in detail. Take a look and tell me why this wouldn't fit this Griz team.

Princeton Offense Link
 
Grizbacker1 said:
AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen said:
I just want to see this because it's so damn basic. Also, it FORCES cam to be a playmaker. It forces him to consider all options. Give him that floor general mentality and put him in a position where he has to do this. It makes him a true point guard instead of this crappy pseudo 2 he's been playing.
Click to expand...

Your idea is not as far fetched as some might think. The man who is credited as inventing (The celtics under red Auerbach used it) the offense, taught it to the Sacramento Kings when Vlade Divac was there and they were very successful with it. The Kings lineup was similar to the Griz, in that they had some big guys and overall not as athletic on the perimeter as the competition, but some good shooters. Pete Carrill is not doing anything. I bet he would be happy to come out and teach Tinks. Here is alink that explains the Princeton Offense in detail. Take a look and tell me why this wouldn't fit this Griz team.

Princeton Offense Link
Click to expand...

I don't think our team has good enough shooters or shot-selection to run the princeton offense. Probably not good enough passers either.

Watch this video of navy running it and tell me giving our guys the mantra of trying their best to get open for threes doesn't make you cringe.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=pOfKhelBM_4[/youtube]
 
Two things I know about running basketball offenses:
1. You can design the best offensive system known to man and it won't make a difference in the world if the players you have cannot execute it.
2. Basketball offenses are an ever evolving thing within the course of a game.

Moreover, what I know, is that offense in basketball definately need to reflect the type of players you have. As I haven't seen the men play in over two years, I really can't make an argument one way or another.

As for the princeton offense, it too can be simplified to reflect the type of players you have. Plus the basic elements of the princeton offense can be found in just about every major college program these days.

I used box sets out of a princeton look for a average class B girls program. Any offense in basketball can be more or less complex for the type of players you have. If you notice Air Force, Georgetown all use aspects of the princeton offense, but none of them look the same. So to say the princeton offense is too complex or too hard for our guys to run, I say hogwash. Jim Behlein (Michigan coach ex WVU coach) created his own system of the princeton cut system based upon the personnel he had.

In anycase, say what you want about Tinks but seriously it is early, and don't count em out yet.
 
Grizfan-24 said:
1. You can design the best offensive system known to man and it won't make a difference in the world if the players you have cannot execute it.
Click to expand...

Grizfan-24 said:
offense in basketball definately [sic] need to reflect the type of players you have
Click to expand...

These aren't basketball observations, GF24. It's true throughout the global range of team sports. Heck, they might even be said of certain individual sports. Have you ever seen a baseline tennis player try to play serve-and-volley? It doesn't work. The same with a football team built for speed trying to play Ground Chuck football. Doesn't work.

That said, you're right.

You are leaving out one very important aspect, though: whatever the system and whatever the relation of the players' abilities, they absolutely MUST buy into the system for it to work. If they don't, it's going to bomb about as bad as Bruce Pielstick.
 
Yeah, they are global comments. I agree completely in your assesment. My experience at coaching at the high school level, it seems to me that even the best high school offenses ever designed (flex in basketball adn wing t in football) is that what I noted before is more vital in basketball than it is in any other sport.

Yes, the players have to buy in. In order to be great offensively in basketball you can't have 4 team guys and 1 'me' guy. The me guy kills you all the time. You want to recruit the best kids for the program that are the highest profile kids, but honestly I think the best part of the best programs are recruiting kids that fit your offensive, defensive and program philosophy.
 
I agree with the comment about a complete lack of any motion. I just couldn't understand it.

Also, did anyone else notice that it seemed like we never even attempted to score off of an out-of-bounds play under the basket? I was always taught that this was one of your best scoring opportunities. We usually scored off of it. It just seems to me like we never even really try. And I don't mean the pass all the way to the top of the 3 point circle to set up the regular offense.
 
At this point I think Tinkle should follow Don Holst's example, and make a deal with the players to let them do anything they want on offense as long as they play hard defense - it isn't like they are following his game plan or executing Tinkle's offense anyways, so why not accept the inevitable and at least get some defense out of these guys. And do it before the league tournament, when it is too late to save your job.
 
Grizbeer said:
At this point I think Tinkle should follow Don Holst's example, and make a deal with the players to let them do anything they want on offense as long as they play hard defense - it isn't like they are following his game plan or executing Tinkle's offense anyways, so why not accept the inevitable and at least get some defense out of these guys. And do it before the league tournament, when it is too late to save your job.
Click to expand...

Allowing the tail to wag the dog is one reason Holst is out of the coaching profession. :twocents:
 
Grizbeer said:
At this point I think Tinkle should follow Don Holst's example, and make a deal with the players to let them do anything they want on offense as long as they play hard defense - it isn't like they are following his game plan or executing Tinkle's offense anyways, so why not accept the inevitable and at least get some defense out of these guys. And do it before the league tournament, when it is too late to save your job.
Click to expand...

That wasn't a deal. That was a bribe. And I figure if you gotta make a bribe, then all is lost.
 
Grizbacker1 said:
Grizbeer said:
At this point I think Tinkle should follow Don Holst's example, and make a deal with the players to let them do anything they want on offense as long as they play hard defense - it isn't like they are following his game plan or executing Tinkle's offense anyways, so why not accept the inevitable and at least get some defense out of these guys. And do it before the league tournament, when it is too late to save your job.
Click to expand...

Allowing the tail to wag the dog is one reason Holst is out of the coaching profession. :twocents:
Click to expand...
plus his record against D-1 programs:
10-14
16-10
9-16
14-15

3 losing seasons in 4 years (excluding exhibition, D-II, and NAIA wins) won't keep many coaches employed. Tinkle's record against D-I so far:
15-15
4-8

He needs to do something. A losing record a couple years in a row with a last ditch rally in the conference championship probably won't save his job either.
 
I can attest personally to the slippery slope of making bribes with players.

Motivation comes within, not from extrinsic motivators.

Offensively speaking, the trouble is that a lot of newer offenses include a heck of a lot of standing around and lack motion. They are classic triangle NBA style offenses that isolate defenses. Very few college programs that I watch frequently today, use a motion or flex style offenses that have constant movement.

Watching North Carolina play clemson the other night, and at any one point during the 35 seconds of the shot clock, there might have been two guys on the floor truely moving. They set a pick for hansborough, if they get the dump in the move off the dump. But a lot of it is dictated on dump and pitch type movments.

basketball and motion is sort of a myth. You don't need motion out of your five players to be sucessful on offense. What you do need, is that whatever offense that you run, you need to execute it. I know that sounds obvious, but you can run a middle school small box, down pick set and if run correctly even at the college or pro level, it might work 50 or 60% of the time.
 
Allowing the tail to wag the dog is one reason Holst is out of the coaching profession.

Grizbacker - I've always kind of respected your position on most issues but on this one i'm wondering if you deserve that respect or not. Are you Don Holst or do you have first hand knowledge other than the lame one above as to why coach isn't in the business anymore? If Holst wanted to coach he could coach. Allbeit, maybe not as a head coach in D-I. Stick with your positive supportive stance on Griz athletics it's much more respectable.
 
Nobody fret, Mathias is on the way. Who needs offense when you have a guy who can score at will!

holla
 
SwiLLSaysKobe4MVP said:
Nobody fret, Mathias is on the way. Who needs offense when you have a guy who can score at will!

holla
Click to expand...
Comes from the same conference/district/whatever GU frosh Steven Gray originally played in.

Edit: i think i was looking for league.
 
jgilder68 said:
Allowing the tail to wag the dog is one reason Holst is out of the coaching profession.

Grizbacker - I've always kind of respected your position on most issues but on this one i'm wondering if you deserve that respect or not. Are you Don Holst or do you have first hand knowledge other than the lame one above as to why coach isn't in the business anymore? If Holst wanted to coach he could coach. Allbeit, maybe not as a head coach in D-I. Stick with your positive supportive stance on Griz athletics it's much more respectable.
Click to expand...

First of all, if you were showing any respect, you would have asked me about it, rather than assuming things you know nothing of. If you read what I said, it is ONE REASON he is out of the profession. It seems you made a leap of your own assuming any other reason I might list would be negative. I am well aware Holst could still be assisting Stew Morrill, but he chose to leave for personal reasons, and is now managing a Health Club. I wasn't taking a shot at Don, but he was far from a perfect coach. I stated an opinion, and I am entitled to that, but I also don't appreciate your trying to put words in my mouth either. In closing, if all you want to read are positive things, stay away from athletic message boards at all costs. If you want to hold me to saying only positive things, you might sit next to Holst at a Griz game. I guarantee you he makes more negative comments than positive ones. :wink:
 
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