Pflu's Original Support for Johnson

[AZGrizFan]

The comment was likely inappropriate and showed poor judgement, and I think Robin has even said so himself.

And I question whether the statement got the two of them fired so much as whether it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Remember, a lot of bad stuff did happen on their watch.

Nope, Pflu really didn't think the statement was inappropriate, and it's become clear over time, and from the trial, that the statement and other support for players was what got them fired. Much more than the straw. Everett, I like you as a poster and supporter of UM, but I am good friends with Pflu and O'Day, and spent alot of time in court. As it turned out, the statement was absolutely correct, and based on considerable experience with JJ and his family. The tide has turned. Engstrom is probably not going to survive at UM in the long run.

Key words there. Given the climate at the time, the statement was misguided. Pflu himself stated that if he'd stopped half way through in his effusive praise of Johnson he'd probably still be employed.

 

[PlayerRep]

The comment was likely inappropriate and showed poor judgement, and I think Robin has even said so himself.

And I question whether the statement got the two of them fired so much as whether it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Remember, a lot of bad stuff did happen on their watch.

Nope, Pflu really didn't think the statement was inappropriate, and it's become clear over time, and from the trial, that the statement and other support for players was what got them fired. Much more than the straw. Everett, I like you as a poster and supporter of UM, but I am good friends with Pflu and O'Day, and spent alot of time in court. As it turned out, the statement was absolutely correct, and based on considerable experience with JJ and his family. The tide has turned. Engstrom is probably not going to survive at UM in the long run.

Key words there. Given the climate at the time, the statement was misguided. Pflu himself stated that if he'd stopped half way through in his effusive praise of Johnson he'd probably still be employed.

Again, what you fail to recognize is that Pflu had talked to JJ for an hour on the Sunday night that JJ received the letter from the dean informing him of the accuser's claim, and had known JJ and his family for 6 years. Pflu knew JJ well enough to know his character, and knew that the allegation was untrue. Pflu told JJ that night that this would turn out okay for him.You may think the statement was misguided, but I don't. Why shouldn't a coach support a player he's known for 6 years, and has come to believe in. Leaders don't wait to speak up, until there is 100% certainty. I have more respect for Pflu for standing up for what he knew was right. I like people who take a stand and who support others, including those in need. I have little respect for people with no balls. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with no balls. I wouldn't want people who think like you in my foxhole.

 

[stubbins]

The comment was likely inappropriate and showed poor judgement, and I think Robin has even said so himself.

And I question whether the statement got the two of them fired so much as whether it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Remember, a lot of bad stuff did happen on their watch.

Nope, Pflu really didn't think the statement was inappropriate, and it's become clear over time, and from the trial, that the statement and other support for players was what got them fired. Much more than the straw. Everett, I like you as a poster and supporter of UM, but I am good friends with Pflu and O'Day, and spent alot of time in court. As it turned out, the statement was absolutely correct, and based on considerable experience with JJ and his family. The tide has turned. Engstrom is probably not going to survive at UM in the long run.

Key words there. Given the climate at the time, the statement was misguided. Pflu himself stated that if he'd stopped half way through in his effusive praise of Johnson he'd probably still be employed.

Again, what you fail to recognize is that Pflu had talked to JJ for an hour on the Sunday night that JJ received the letter from the dean informing him of the accuser's claim, and had known JJ and his family for 6 years. Pflu knew JJ well enough to know his character, and knew that the allegation was untrue. Pflu told JJ that night that this would turn out okay for him.You may think the statement was misguided, but I don't. Why shouldn't a coach support a player he's known for 6 years, and has come to believe in. I have more respect for Pflu for standing up for what he knew was right. I like people who take a stand and who support others, including those in need. I have little respect for people with no balls. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with no balls. I wouldn't want people who think like you in my foxhole.

the last sentence may be a touch on the dramatic side, but other than that...agree with everything you wrote...well said.

 

[PlayerRep]

Nope, Pflu really didn't think the statement was inappropriate, and it's become clear over time, and from the trial, that the statement and other support for players was what got them fired. Much more than the straw. Everett, I like you as a poster and supporter of UM, but I am good friends with Pflu and O'Day, and spent alot of time in court. As it turned out, the statement was absolutely correct, and based on considerable experience with JJ and his family. The tide has turned. Engstrom is probably not going to survive at UM in the long run.

Key words there. Given the climate at the time, the statement was misguided. Pflu himself stated that if he'd stopped half way through in his effusive praise of Johnson he'd probably still be employed.

Again, what you fail to recognize is that Pflu had talked to JJ for an hour on the Sunday night that JJ received the letter from the dean informing him of the accuser's claim, and had known JJ and his family for 6 years. Pflu knew JJ well enough to know his character, and knew that the allegation was untrue. Pflu told JJ that night that this would turn out okay for him.You may think the statement was misguided, but I don't. Why shouldn't a coach support a player he's known for 6 years, and has come to believe in. I have more respect for Pflu for standing up for what he knew was right. I like people who take a stand and who support others, including those in need. I have little respect for people with no balls. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with no balls. I wouldn't want people who think like you in my foxhole.

the last sentence may be a touch on the dramatic side, but other than that...agree with everything you wrote...well said.

Fair enough. Then you can be in my foxhole.

 

[RobGriz]

Key words there. Given the climate at the time, the statement was misguided. Pflu himself stated that if he'd stopped half way through in his effusive praise of Johnson he'd probably still be employed.

Again, what you fail to recognize is that Pflu had talked to JJ for an hour on the Sunday night that JJ received the letter from the dean informing him of the accuser's claim, and had known JJ and his family for 6 years. Pflu knew JJ well enough to know his character, and knew that the allegation was untrue. Pflu told JJ that night that this would turn out okay for him.You may think the statement was misguided, but I don't. Why shouldn't a coach support a player he's known for 6 years, and has come to believe in. I have more respect for Pflu for standing up for what he knew was right. I like people who take a stand and who support others, including those in need. I have little respect for people with no balls. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with no balls. I wouldn't want people who think like you in my foxhole.

the last sentence may be a touch on the dramatic side, but other than that...agree with everything you wrote...well said.

Fair enough. Then you can be in my foxhole.

Don't take this wrong...but that sounded kinda gay.

 

[AZGrizFan]

The comment was likely inappropriate and showed poor judgement, and I think Robin has even said so himself.

And I question whether the statement got the two of them fired so much as whether it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Remember, a lot of bad stuff did happen on their watch.

Nope, Pflu really didn't think the statement was inappropriate, and it's become clear over time, and from the trial, that the statement and other support for players was what got them fired. Much more than the straw. Everett, I like you as a poster and supporter of UM, but I am good friends with Pflu and O'Day, and spent alot of time in court. As it turned out, the statement was absolutely correct, and based on considerable experience with JJ and his family. The tide has turned. Engstrom is probably not going to survive at UM in the long run.

Key words there. Given the climate at the time, the statement was misguided. Pflu himself stated that if he'd stopped half way through in his effusive praise of Johnson he'd probably still be employed.

Again, what you fail to recognize is that Pflu had talked to JJ for an hour on the Sunday night that JJ received the letter from the dean informing him of the accuser's claim, and had known JJ and his family for 6 years. Pflu knew JJ well enough to know his character, and knew that the allegation was untrue. Pflu told JJ that night that this would turn out okay for him.You may think the statement was misguided, but I don't. Why shouldn't a coach support a player he's known for 6 years, and has come to believe in. Leaders don't wait to speak up, until there is 100% certainty. I have more respect for Pflu for standing up for what he knew was right. I like people who take a stand and who support others, including those in need. I have little respect for people with no balls. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with no balls. I wouldn't want people who think like you in my foxhole.

All that is well and good, but let's get a few things straight:

a) I, under no circumstances, want to be in your "foxhole".
b) Simply ask that Pflu would have used better judgement at THAT PARTICULAR TIME.

Now, I suppose in hindsight if he thought that comment was going to get him fired, he probably wouldn't have said it (which is what he's alluded to subsequently), but regardless of his relationship with Johnson, regardless of his conversations with Johnson, it just wasn't smart PR (as in Public Relations, not Player Rep) to say THAT at THAT particular time. It was like pouring gasoline on a fire, so to speak. And that fire blew up in his face, unfortunately.

Him being right NOW doesn't change the fact that it was poor judgment THEN. I get WHY he did it, but that doesn't make it a smart move. And ironically, in the same position I might have done exactly the same thing...backed my boy, knowing I'm right. I'm just glad he ultimately WAS right. On THAT we can both agree.

Edit: One more thing, PR: I REALLY don't want to rip the bandage off this wound..we've been down this road already...we should just enjoy justice being done and celebrating the black cloud being lifted from the program. :thumb:

 

[AZGrizFan]

Again, what you fail to recognize is that Pflu had talked to JJ for an hour on the Sunday night that JJ received the letter from the dean informing him of the accuser's claim, and had known JJ and his family for 6 years. Pflu knew JJ well enough to know his character, and knew that the allegation was untrue. Pflu told JJ that night that this would turn out okay for him.You may think the statement was misguided, but I don't. Why shouldn't a coach support a player he's known for 6 years, and has come to believe in. I have more respect for Pflu for standing up for what he knew was right. I like people who take a stand and who support others, including those in need. I have little respect for people with no balls. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with no balls. I wouldn't want people who think like you in my foxhole.

the last sentence may be a touch on the dramatic side, but other than that...agree with everything you wrote...well said.

Fair enough. Then you can be in my foxhole.

Don't take this wrong...but that sounded kinda gay.

:lol: :evil:

 

[AZGrizFan]

I don't think it's wrong for a coach to stick up for a player, and in a "normal" context, I don't think Pflugrad's comments should be viewed as inappropriate (and certainly not worthy of dismissal).

The problem, though, is that the comments were made at a time when a complaint had been filed with the DoE against the football team, and Pflugrad's comments have the potential to give the DoE additional ammo against UM. Now, when you peel back the onion and look at the merits of the case against JJ, you reach the conclusion that Pflugrad's comments were probably correct, so in that sense, you might say that Pflugrad has been vindicated. However, as I (and I suspect others on this thread) know, when an agency starts investigating an institution, they don't always "peel back the onion" on every single piece of evidence they have. In writing their report, if the DoE feels that it can build a case against UM for creating a "hostile work environment," one can easily envision Pflugrad's comments appearing as part of a litany of examples of "conduct creating a hostile work environment" by UM officials, without necessarily taking into account the fact that the player was ultimately acquitted. I'm not saying that's fair or right, but it's sometimes the way investigative agencies operate. Thus, while Pflugrad's comments were not "wrong," they do have the potential to cause some harm to UM.

Engstrom's primary concern at the time, I assume, was managing the NCAA and DoE investigations (I don't recall whether the DoJ investigation had started yet). I don't know what had been said internally between Engstrom, O'Day, Pflugrad, or anyone else, but I suspect some version of the discussion goatcreek described probably happened -- certainly in the face of the various investigations, it would be extremely important to have a coordinated message to the media. We'll probably never get an official response from UM as to why Pflu was fired, but I suspect it was because his comments were viewed as having the potential to hurt UM with the various investigators, and firing him was a form of damage control. I don't necessarily agree that it was the right move, and I do sympathize with Pflugrad (and respect him for standing up for his player), but I also understand the thinking behind it.

Exactly right.

 

[NorthwestFresh]

While Pflu was ultimately proven correct, it doesn't change the inappropriateness of the timing of his comments given the climate and what was transpiring within the football team. Glad he got some level of vindication, however.

I'm not sure if what JJ admitted to on the stand makes what Pflugrad said accurate. Seems as if the jury believed the accuser said 'no', but not that JJ understood or heard it.

 

[PlayerRep]

While Pflu was ultimately proven correct, it doesn't change the inappropriateness of the timing of his comments given the climate and what was transpiring within the football team. Glad he got some level of vindication, however.

I'm not sure if what JJ admitted to on the stand makes what Pflugrad said accurate. Seems as if the jury believed the accuser said 'no', but not that JJ understood or heard it.

I've seen no juror statement saying they believed the accuser said no. Like most of what you post, I assume you can't back up your statement.

 

[Tokyogriz]

northwest is posting his usual Bullshit. Ignore him.

Engstrom fired Oday and Pflu just because he could and without any true merit PERIOD.

 

[argh!]

i'm going to get excoriated for this, but the guy doesn't appear to deserve that kind of praise. think about it - he had been wooing this girl from oregon with talk of a relationship that was serious enough that she drove all the way to missoula to be with him for the forester's ball. as per his defense, he continued to woo her and want a relationship, yet texted jane doe the next day, and then decided to 'visit' her after a few beers. i've known guys like that, i.e. someone who women find attractive (for whatever reason), and who whisper sweet nothings into one girl's ears about a relationship, but then would go hop on any chick they could, as long as they figured the girl they 'really liked' wouldn't find out. i always considered those guys to be complete douche bags, and they often exhibited that sort of 'entitled' behavior in other aspects of their lives, too. indeed, it was always amazing to me how they seemed to 'fool' others because they were good looking, a jock, or whatever.

ok, start firing.

 

[uofmman1122]

I think Pflu is the best coach we've had in years. If he somehow were to earn his shot at head coach again, I'd support it 110%. He was the easy scapegoat for the JJ case, and I think the administration overreacted and overreached immensely here.

That being said, there's a difference between supporting your players 100% and what he did. His comments were incredibly Ill thought through and were horribly worded, especially given the question. All he had to say was "we're happy the have him back, and that he has the opportunity."

He could have supported him 100%, but he shouldn't have said it like that to the news.

I think he deserves another chance, but he won't get it here. We'll likely never see him coach here again.

 

[CV Griz Fan]

i'm going to get excoriated for this, but the guy doesn't appear to deserve that kind of praise. think about it - he had been wooing this girl from oregon with talk of a relationship that was serious enough that she drove all the way to missoula to be with him for the forester's ball. as per his defense, he continued to woo her and want a relationship, yet texted jane doe the next day, and then decided to 'visit' her after a few beers. i've known guys like that, i.e. someone who women find attractive (for whatever reason), and who whisper sweet nothings into one girl's ears about a relationship, but then would go hop on any chick they could, as long as they figured the girl they 'really liked' wouldn't find out. i always considered those guys to be complete douche bags, and they often exhibited that sort of 'entitled' behavior in other aspects of their lives, too. indeed, it was always amazing to me how they seemed to 'fool' others because they were good looking, a jock, or whatever.

ok, start firing.

Okay. JJ is a "dirt bag". Many have said as much over the last couple of months. He is just not a rapist.

 

[mtgrizrule]

I guess we have different definitions of dirt bag. A guy or girl having a one night stand does not make them a dirt bag in my opinion. Unfortunately, one night stands have been common for late teens to mid 20's people for how many generations now?

On the other hand, if a person continues to do this after this kind of experience, then a dirt bag that needs a lot of help would be accurate. I hope JJ and most young adults find happiness in committed relationships.

 

[GrizLA]

I just wonder if things would have been different had the coach just said, "I have no comment on this at this time"

 

[AZGrizFan]

I just wonder if things would have been different had the coach just said, "I have no comment on this at this time"

Pflu himself has said as much, LA.

 

[JSWNBBY]

Be bold in what you stand for and careful for what you fall for. People forget that the tyranny of Goverment is what the presumption of innocence was founded upon. We are all innocent unless and until we are proven guilty by a unanimos jury of our peers. So the President of my University ignored all principles of law, did everything he could to ensure an unjust result and has forever tarnished my university. The coach was not insubordinate. He could not be told to speak the party line or else. The President of the University does not have that authority. Now we should use any and all lawful means to ensure that this President, and all future Presidents can never do this again.

 

[Umista]

As far as some of you stating Jordy is a dirt bag etc. I think some of you live and did live indoors under your mothers skirts and have little knowledge of the goings on concerning 20 year old men and women.

Sure all the good looking people got more attention from the opposite sex. Big shots got more attention, good talkers were in the throws also. Wealthy kids, sports stars and other "popular" kids were simply on top! Still is that way and it will continue forever and even in life after school.

Some girls are sluts and some guys are also. Simple fact of life. Is life fair? Hell no. Some of us are ugly and we simply need to work harder to join the crowd.

I felt at the time O'Day and Pflugrad got fired they were let go without warning and Engstrom acted under fear and jumped to conclusions way before the facts were all out. The non athletic rapes and goings on put the fear into Engstrom and he has not shown true leadership. He would do us all a good turn if he moves on. The fear among potential students attending the U is simply his doing. This fear will extend for one or two more years while our darling MSU school continues to have record enrollment.

Pat Williams and Rolls Engstrom are birds of a feather. Weak! By the way you foxhole guys......they don't have foxholes any more. That went out during the Vietnam gut blaster. However I think we all get the picture.

Not one person reading this will change opinions but that above is my opinion.

 

[AZGrizFan]

As far as some of you stating Jordy is a dirt bag etc. I think some of you live and did live indoors under your mothers skirts and have little knowledge of the goings on concerning 20 year old men and women.

Sure all the good looking people got more attention from the opposite sex. Big shots got more attention, good talkers were in the throws also. Wealthy kids, sports stars and other "popular" kids were simply on top! Still is that way and it will continue forever and even in life after school.

Some girls are sluts and some guys are also. Simple fact of life. Is life fair? Hell no. Some of us are ugly and we simply need to work harder to join the crowd.

I felt at the time O'Day and Pflugrad got fired they were let go without warning and Engstrom acted under fear and jumped to conclusions way before the facts were all out. The non athletic rapes and goings on put the fear into Engstrom and he has not shown true leadership. He would do us all a good turn if he moves on. The fear among potential students attending the U is simply his doing. This fear will extend for one or two more years while our darling MSU school continues to have record enrollment.

Pat Williams and Rolls Engstrom are birds of a feather. Weak! By the way you foxhole guys......they don't have foxholes any more. That went out during the Vietnam gut blaster. However I think we all get the picture.

Not one person reading this will change opinions but that above is my opinion.

Why should I change my opinion? I agree with everything you said.