Pflu was right?

[AZGrizFan]

You just want to assume don't you AZ? Don't want to wait for the evidence? Just have some chick call RAPE and he's guilty? What happened to our constitution?? and the right to a FAIR trial?? Why?? Please let me know why???

The only person "guilty" in my mind is Pflu, of poor judgment and lack of leadership. JJ's fate is to be determined.

What was poor judgment and lack of leadership? Let's hear about all of the poor judgment and lack of leadership.

we've been around that track about 30 times. :roll:

 

[grizbrokebacker1]

3. Reason for firings - The president has refused to say why the firings occurred. This is hurting his credibility. There's enough information out there (in this small community), and many people can now see that there were no reasons to justify this action.

What part of "without cause" can't your pea brain comprehend?

 

[AZGrizFan]

You just want to assume don't you AZ? Don't want to wait for the evidence? Just have some chick call RAPE and he's guilty? What happened to our constitution?? and the right to a FAIR trial?? Why?? Please let me know why???

The only person "guilty" in my mind is Pflu, of poor judgment and lack of leadership. JJ's fate is to be determined.

What was poor judgment and lack of leadership? Let's hear about all of the poor judgment and lack of leadership.

He's just blindly following Engstrom and the "lack of leadership" line just sounds good to fit his agenda. There is no lack of leadership, there is no cover-up, there is no smoking gun.

I won't get into the personal attacks either as they serve no purpose, but for the 1000th and final time, I have no agenda. I don't know Engstrom, I don't know O'Day and I don't know Pflugrad. Never met any one of them. But I do know something about leading people and I do know about accountability and in my opinion, in these areas all three of these men failed miserably (yes, I include Engstrom here and believe HE should be fired as well).

In a perfect world, Pflu and O'Day would have handled all these issues correctly and we (as a fan base) would have moved on without this upheaval. In a less than perfect world O'Day would have realized Pflu's shortcomings as a head coach and let him go. Neither of these happened and now they're both gone. But, I don't know how anyone can look at that team and that program and all the alleged off-field issues over the past 3-5 years and say there hasn't been a lack of leadership. I keep hearing/reading that Pflu is a great guy. Awesome. People have said he was getting better at the X's and O's part of coaching? Super. But HEAD coaching is more than just X's and O's, and at some point Pflu needed to be a head coach, he needed to be a leader of men and not just a nice guy (and lifetime assistant) who happened to be sitting in the head coach's chair.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there was a distinct failure of leadership and accountability within that locker room, and at some point someone pays for that failure with their job. 98% of the time the buck stops at the head coach. Pflu sealed his fate with his over-the-top comments about JJ after his return to practice. Those comments proved beyond a reasonable doubt he flat out didn't get the severity of the issues facing his team and the university. Yeah, I get that he's known JJ since the Dead Sea was only sick. I get that he thinks JJ is a great guy. I get that he wants to "stand up for his player". But there's a right way and a wrong way and, once again, Pflu chose the wrong way to do that.

It flabbergasts me that people find this so sinister and surprising. That Pflu could then sit there and say with a straight face that he had no idea why he was fired just cemented the fact he didn't "get" it. Yeah, I realize Engstrom didn't give him a specific reason but honest to Christ, if he had to have it spelled out for him after everything that's happened over the past 2-3 years then I question Pflu's IQ.

If all the blind followers want to win but have a reputation like the University of Miami in doing so, more power to you. Personally, I want a football team I can be proud of both on AND off the field--and whether Gwen Florio has a personal agenda or not, I'm goddamned sick and tired of reading about Griz football players' legal troubles on the front page of the Missoulian.

Now, we have all beaten this dead horse into a bloody, unrecognizable pulp. Pflugrad and O'Day are gone, and nothing we say or do is going to change that. Personally, I'm moving on...no more posts from me about Pflu, O'Day, Engstrom, lack of leadership, accountability, rapes, ruffies, tazing, restraining orders, DUI's, disorderly conducts, lawyers, legal precedence, contracts, payouts, witch hunts, pitchforks or a perceived mob mentality. Ya'll want to keep whipping yourselves up into a daily frenzy over this stuff that you have no control over, be my guest. For me, Mick Delaney is our head coach and there's a bright future ahead for Griz Football...I plan on supporting him and the 98% of the team that are good upstanding citizens and community representatives.

Now, que the personal attacks and que playerrep explaining away every instance of Griz football players in legal trouble over the past 37 years.

 

[reinell30]

Very well said AzGrizFan!!!

 

[PlayerRep]

You just want to assume don't you AZ? Don't want to wait for the evidence? Just have some chick call RAPE and he's guilty? What happened to our constitution?? and the right to a FAIR trial?? Why?? Please let me know why???

The only person "guilty" in my mind is Pflu, of poor judgment and lack of leadership. JJ's fate is to be determined.

What was poor judgment and lack of leadership? Let's hear about all of the poor judgment and lack of leadership.

we've been around that track about 30 times. :roll:

I knew you couldn't back up your statements. Continuing to say "lack of leadership" and other generalities doesn't cut it. I can see you have no specifics. You just repeat the same mantra over and over. Talk about a lack of substance. You don't understand what occurred at UM, and I don't think you have a clue about leadership either.

 

[argh!]

Mod Edit: Let's keep the accusations and defamatory nonsense out of these threads.

 

[PlayerRep]

3. Reason for firings - The president has refused to say why the firings occurred. This is hurting his credibility. There's enough information out there (in this small community), and many people can now see that there were no reasons to justify this action.

What part of "without cause" can't your pea brain comprehend?

After the recent YC case, the ability of an employer to terminate an employee without cause no longer exists in Montana, except in the early months during any probationary period.

 

[Grizzoola]

Just a couple of questions from an outsider.
1.Do you think your University President is experienced, level headed, and privy to information that isn't public?
2.Would your president do any damage to your successful football program without reason?
3.Why are you beating each other up when the public is clueless on the reasons for the firings?

Okay, I'll take a shot at answering.

1. Level headed - Yes, but didn't consult the right people, listened to the wrong people, and just made a major blunder.
Privy to non-public information - Highly unlikely.

How in hell, I say, HOW IN HELL do you know this? Were you THERE? Were you any place? Or are you, just like so many on this board & in the community, going on hearsay, conjecture, and speculation? If you are a UM grad, you didn't learn much about solid evidence of anything, that hearsay, etc., and superstition, while I'm at it, are valid for forming a conclusion irrespective of facts based on solid evidence. Geezuz! The crap I'm seeing on this board. It's like a bunch of old wives gossiping while knitting. Gossip is fun, but doesn't mean a damned thing.

Fact is, all we have is hearsay & what's in the press or other public statements, and re: public statements, I'm not so sure what Pflu said re: JJ is the sole reason he was fired, like several of you claim.

 

[grizrgood]

The only person "guilty" in my mind is Pflu, of poor judgment and lack of leadership. JJ's fate is to be determined.

What was poor judgment and lack of leadership? Let's hear about all of the poor judgment and lack of leadership.

He's just blindly following Engstrom and the "lack of leadership" line just sounds good to fit his agenda. There is no lack of leadership, there is no cover-up, there is no smoking gun.

I won't get into the personal attacks either as they serve no purpose, but for the 1000th and final time, I have no agenda. I don't know Engstrom, I don't know O'Day and I don't know Pflugrad. Never met any one of them. But I do know something about leading people and I do know about accountability and in my opinion, in these areas all three of these men failed miserably (yes, I include Engstrom here and believe HE should be fired as well).

In a perfect world, Pflu and O'Day would have handled all these issues correctly and we (as a fan base) would have moved on without this upheaval. In a less than perfect world O'Day would have realized Pflu's shortcomings as a head coach and let him go. Neither of these happened and now they're both gone. But, I don't know how anyone can look at that team and that program and all the alleged off-field issues over the past 3-5 years and say there hasn't been a lack of leadership. I keep hearing/reading that Pflu is a great guy. Awesome. People have said he was getting better at the X's and O's part of coaching? Super. But HEAD coaching is more than just X's and O's, and at some point Pflu needed to be a head coach, he needed to be a leader of men and not just a nice guy (and lifetime assistant) who happened to be sitting in the head coach's chair.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there was a distinct failure of leadership and accountability within that locker room, and at some point someone pays for that failure with their job. 98% of the time the buck stops at the head coach. Pflu sealed his fate with his over-the-top comments about JJ after his return to practice. Those comments proved beyond a reasonable doubt he flat out didn't get the severity of the issues facing his team and the university. Yeah, I get that he's known JJ since the Dead Sea was only sick. I get that he thinks JJ is a great guy. I get that he wants to "stand up for his player". But there's a right way and a wrong way and, once again, Pflu chose the wrong way to do that.

It flabbergasts me that people find this so sinister and surprising. That Pflu could then sit there and say with a straight face that he had no idea why he was fired just cemented the fact he didn't "get" it. Yeah, I realize Engstrom didn't give him a specific reason but honest to Christ, if he had to have it spelled out for him after everything that's happened over the past 2-3 years then I question Pflu's IQ.

If all the blind followers want to win but have a reputation like the University of Miami in doing so, more power to you. Personally, I want a football team I can be proud of both on AND off the field--and whether Gwen Florio has a personal agenda or not, I'm goddamned sick and tired of reading about Griz football players' legal troubles on the front page of the Missoulian.

Now, we have all beaten this dead horse into a bloody, unrecognizable pulp. Pflugrad and O'Day are gone, and nothing we say or do is going to change that. Personally, I'm moving on...no more posts from me about Pflu, O'Day, Engstrom, lack of leadership, accountability, rapes, ruffies, tazing, restraining orders, DUI's, disorderly conducts, lawyers, legal precedence, contracts, payouts, witch hunts, pitchforks or a perceived mob mentality. Ya'll want to keep whipping yourselves up into a daily frenzy over this stuff that you have no control over, be my guest. For me, Mick Delaney is our head coach and there's a bright future ahead for Griz Football...I plan on supporting him and the 98% of the team that are good upstanding citizens and community representatives.

Now, que the personal attacks and que playerrep explaining away every instance of Griz football players in legal trouble over the past 37 years.

Well said, I'm with you! :thumb:

 

[PlayerRep]

Just a couple of questions from an outsider.
1.Do you think your University President is experienced, level headed, and privy to information that isn't public?
2.Would your president do any damage to your successful football program without reason?
3.Why are you beating each other up when the public is clueless on the reasons for the firings?

Okay, I'll take a shot at answering.

1. Level headed - Yes, but didn't consult the right people, listened to the wrong people, and just made a major blunder.
Privy to non-public information - Highly unlikely.

How in hell, I say, HOW IN HELL do you know this? Were you THERE? Were you any place? Or are you, just like so many on this board & in the community, going on hearsay, conjecture, and speculation? If you are a UM grad, you didn't learn much about solid evidence of anything, that hearsay, etc., and superstition, while I'm at it, are valid for forming a conclusion irrespective of facts based on solid evidence. Geezuz! The crap I'm seeing on this board. It's like a bunch of old wives gossiping while knitting. Gossip is fun, but doesn't mean a damned thing.

Fact is, all we have is hearsay & what's in the press or other public statements, and re: public statements, I'm not so sure what Pflu said re: JJ is the sole reason he was fired, like several of you claim. Ok, old gals, go back to your knitting and mumble on.

Just ask around, especially with those in the know, in Missoula, and they will say Engtrom consulted Christian, Lopatch, Williams and Aronsoky (on legal matters). And didn't consult his senior vp, Foley, who sits next to him and knows alot about the athletic department. If you have any information to the contrary, feel free to provide it. However, just because you aren't in the know, doesn't mean that others in the community aren't.

 

[Grizzoola]

Okay, I'll take a shot at answering.

1. Level headed - Yes, but didn't consult the right people, listened to the wrong people, and just made a major blunder.
Privy to non-public information - Highly unlikely.

How in hell, I say, HOW IN HELL do you know this? Were you THERE? Were you any place? Or are you, just like so many on this board & in the community, going on hearsay, conjecture, and speculation? If you are a UM grad, you didn't learn much about solid evidence of anything, that hearsay, etc., and superstition, while I'm at it, are valid for forming a conclusion irrespective of facts based on solid evidence. Geezuz! The crap I'm seeing on this board. It's like a bunch of old wives gossiping while knitting. Gossip is fun, but doesn't mean a damned thing.

Fact is, all we have is hearsay & what's in the press or other public statements, and re: public statements, I'm not so sure what Pflu said re: JJ is the sole reason he was fired, like several of you claim. Ok, old gals, go back to your knitting and mumble on.

Just ask around, especially with those in the know, in Missoula, and they will say Engtrom consulted Christian, Lopatch, Williams and Aronsoky (on legal matters). And didn't consult his senior vp, Foley, who sits next to him and knows alot about the athletic department. If you have any information to the contrary, feel free to provide it. However, just because you aren't in the know, doesn't mean that others in the community aren't.

Hearsay, pure and simple. :bad:

 

[tnt]

What isn't hearsay is that the incidents involving football players, there is no question of consent so far as Title IX is concerned. The question is really did the athletic department do everything to insure their athletes knew/know is that in order to avoid many of the questions of consent, there can be NO consent in the presence of alcohol. Then did they take appropriate action in the case of any complaints?
I wasn't there but in most of the cases I believe there was alcohol involved. I believe that also was the case with JJ's last incident. If it did indeed occur during the Foresters Ball I can assure you at least one of the parties had alcohol on board. That one I saw for sure....

What the Cops or the Courts do is irrelevent.

 

[garizzalies]

...there can be NO consent in the presence of alcohol.

Huh? Are you talking about "consent" for sex? I would bet 99% of all college sex is done while drunk. Are you claiming that is all rape?

...I wasn't there but in most of the cases I believe there was alcohol involved. I believe that also was the case with JJ's last incident. If it did indeed occur during the Foresters Ball I can assure you at least one of the parties had alcohol on board. That one I saw for sure.....

"Last" incident? Are you implying JJ had multiple incidents? What other party are you talking about? what the hell are you talking about?

 

[grizbrokebacker1]

Just ask around, especially with those in the know, in Missoula, and they will say Engtrom consulted Christian, Lopatch, Williams and Aronsoky (on legal matters).

If he consulted with these fine folks on legal matters then I think that any of them would have told him that his reasoning of "change of leadership" would be sufficient enough to not cause a lawsuit. Wouldn't you agree Jack? I can't figure out why you're so adamant that he give a different reason if he consulted with attorneys beforehand.

You just keep speaking and contradicting yourself. I'm loving it.

 

[PlayerRep]

What isn't hearsay is that the incidents involving football players, there is no question of consent so far as Title IX is concerned. The question is really did the athletic department do everything to insure their athletes knew/know is that in order to avoid many of the questions of consent, there can be NO consent in the presence of alcohol. Then did they take appropriate action in the case of any complaints?
I wasn't there but in most of the cases I believe there was alcohol involved. I believe that also was the case with JJ's last incident. If it did indeed occur during the Foresters Ball I can assure you at least one of the parties had alcohol on board. That one I saw for sure....

What the Cops or the Courts do is irrelevent.

From what I can see: the university has done a good, or perhaps very good, job on Title IX. Complaints have been investigated promtly and presumably well. The university appears to have done a terrific job since December 2011. Note that there has been only one charge of sexual assault against an athlete in UM history, or at least modern history. Prior to December 2011 (say in the last 5 or so years, as I don't know about earlier years), there appears to have been only one allegation of sexual assault by an athlete or athletes (or at least football players) brought to the attention of university or football coach. That was the Dec. 2010 incident that was brought to the attention of the coach, when the police called the coach to say that an incident had occurred and they were not going to pursue charges. That was how the coach learned of the matter. The coach took immediate and significant internal action, including internal probation of the players. Eventually, one player was dismissed by the coach (for something). This incident may have come back to life in recent months, with a complaint by the accuser to the university, and it looks like the university may be taking some action. However, I don't know for sure. The accuser had not gone to the university when the incident occurred. The most recent player accusation is apparently being looked at by the university, according to the rumor mill. The player missed a week of practice. The athletic department arranged for a significant session on sexual assault by a consultant, I believe earlier this year. All athletes were invited. 90 athletes attended; all football players. The coaches talk to the players frequently about good behavior and staying out of trouble. Alums sometimes are asked to talk to the team about the same thing.

 

[PlayerRep]

Just ask around, especially with those in the know, in Missoula, and they will say Engtrom consulted Christian, Lopatch, Williams and Aronsoky (on legal matters).

If he consulted with these fine folks on legal matters then I think that any of them would have told him that his reasoning of "change of leadership" would be sufficient enough to not cause a lawsuit. Wouldn't you agree Jack? I can't figure out why you're so adamant that he give a different reason if he consulted with attorneys beforehand.

You just keep speaking and contradicting yourself. I'm loving it.

Only one of those people are lawyers. I doubt that anyone told him that the firings would not result in a lawsuit. Claims over firings are made all the time in MT. I haven't been "adamant that he gave a different reason". In fact, I don't even know what your phrase means. It's not even understandable. I have not contradicted myself at all.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. If you're going to keep posting, consider posting in English.

 

[tnt]

When I said most last incident, I guess I should have said most recent (of a number of incidents) as it probably won't be the last.

I agree Player Rep I do think we'll be Okay with Title IX, and with the last go around of firings and the new code of conduct regarding student/athlete misconduct pretty well insulated on due dilligence. It will be hard when the lawsuits come (interesting that the victims for the most part have counsel) for the University to be accused of not doing everything they could.

 

[grizbrokebacker1]

Just ask around, especially with those in the know, in Missoula, and they will say Engtrom consulted Christian, Lopatch, Williams and Aronsoky (on legal matters).

If he consulted with these fine folks on legal matters then I think that any of them would have told him that his reasoning of "change of leadership" would be sufficient enough to not cause a lawsuit. Wouldn't you agree Jack? I can't figure out why you're so adamant that he give a different reason if he consulted with attorneys beforehand.

You just keep speaking and contradicting yourself. I'm loving it.

Only one of those people are lawyers. I doubt that anyone told him that the firings would not result in a lawsuit. Claims over firings are made all the time in MT. I haven't been "adamant that he gave a different reason". In fact, I don't even know what your phrase means. It's not even understandable. I have not contradicted myself at all.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. If you're going to keep posting, consider posting in English.

Aronofsky should've been wise enough to mention that Engstrom would need to give a better reason than he did.

You keep questioning why Engstrom hasn't clarified or justified his decision. Not only on this board, but out in public.

Oh, and I find it quite funny that you of all people would be questioning my grammar when it's very apparent that you can't even grasp the concept of hearsay.

 

[garizzalies]

When I said last incident, I guess I should have said most recent (of a number of incidents) as it probably won't be the last.

But you were talking about JJ specifically and keep implying multiple incidents (and now future incidents).
Agenda much?
And you forgot to explain this comment: "there can be NO consent in the presence of alcohol."

 

[tnt]

When I said last incident, I guess I should have said most recent (of a number of incidents) as it probably won't be the last.

But you were talking about JJ specifically and keep implying multiple incidents (and now future incidents).
Agenda much?
And you forgot to explain this comment: "there can be NO consent in the presence of alcohol."

Collective incidents not just JJ and that quote comes from Title IX in regards to consent for sexual activity. Title IX aside I would have thought most young (and for that matter old) men would know that one. Or as most freshman students during orientation are told "if a doubt get out"