O'Day lawyers up

[Grizzoola]

Stop this goddam whining and nit-picking. I don't care what happens w/ Pflu & O'Day. That's history. They are good guys who did not realize how morally corrupt UM's football culture became. RE had to let them go. It's also a clear signal to present and future coaches and players that the UM football program is not morally where it has been. You either shape up or ship out. Just ask coach Gregorak about his experience at UNLV.

Can you please articulate for us how the UM football culture is morally corrupt?

Don't play the innocent. You know very well what I'm talking about. It's been on this board, the Kaimin, and local, if not national media for years. If the Griz football program had not been morally corrupt, Pflu and O'Day would still have their jobs.

Still waiting for you to explain to us how the Griz football program is morally corrupt....

Ok, how about this? Instead of cataloging all that has been on this board, the Kaimin, and the Missoulian, not to mention national media, which even you should know, I'd like to know the percentage of misconduct, whether charged, arrested, convicted, or brought for violations of the Student Conduct Code, and don't give me sh!t about changing the code in the middle of the JJ case. Maybe take in the past 15-20 years. This, of course, won't include "violations of team rules," or whatever it's called.

Now, consider: There's about 100 players in the UM football program, out of the total population of UM students over the years. So, say, the UM student enrollment in a year was 12,000 (it's more now, but I hope you're getting my point?) 100 out of 12,000 is less than 1% of the student body. It may hold, even today.
So, in comparing the misconduct record of that 1% of football players to the misconduct record of the other 99% of the student body, I'd say the record of the 1% is higher, since we hear nothing, except in occasional incidents of misconduct, of the other 99%. Not only higher, but substantially higher. All I go by is what I see/hear in the media.

To put it simply, Griz football players get in trouble more than other UM students, and this to me means "morally corrupt," and that's what this program has been tolerating and Pres. Engstrom has brought to a screeching halt by firing Pflu and O'Day. So, now you are going to whine and cry about Griz football players are just being picked on? Give me a break. Or, maybe you will say, "Oh, that's just normal at any school." It's just that "normal" that is no longer tolerated at UM, thanks to Pres. Engstrom, who btw, is his own man in this and not a Dennison clone, even tho I regard him a clone in other respects.

 

[MrTitleist]

You still haven't answered the question of how the Griz football team is morally corrupt. You can't even provide facts about how many Griz arrests there are compared to how many UM student arrests there are. You haven't provided a single case of how the Griz football team is morally corrupt, you haven't provided a single statistic proving how often Griz football players are in trouble vs. what percentage of UM students are in trouble. At best you're providing generalizations without any facts to back them up. Now please answer the question, how is the Griz football team morally corrupt?

 

[Grizzoola]

You still haven't answered the question of how the Griz football team is morally corrupt. You can't even provide facts about how many Griz arrests there are compared to how many UM student arrests there are. You haven't provided a single case of how the Griz football team is morally corrupt, you haven't provided a single statistic proving how often Griz football players are in trouble vs. what percentage of UM students are in trouble. At best you're providing generalizations without any facts to back them up. Now please answer the question, how is the Griz football team morally corrupt?

I'm just an ordinary fan of the Griz, giving my perception of what the Griz football program has been and my perception of why Pres. Engstrom had to do what he did. I believe many others not only on this board, but in the larger community know what I mean, if you don't or don't want to know.

I'm not a statistics guy. Lord knows, statistics have been thrown around this board over the past 2, 3, 5, years. "It's the perception, Stupid." But, I'm sure Pres. Engstrom acted on reality, not on perceptions. Maybe, since you're so much into statistics, you can do the research that will show, in fact, that the percentage of Griz football players accused or convicted of misconduct has been no greater than the other 99% of the UM student body. Be my guest.

Until you do, I'm sticking by my perceptions and other eGrizzers can do the same or show those perceptions incorrect by producing statistics on their own.

Oh, here's another thing about perceptions. I have a young, attractive, female relative from Helena High, starting her third year at UM. She's been around, working in restaurants. She's been working in one in Missoula since coming to UM. She has lots of friends, male & female. I asked her about the UM football situation. All she said was she and her friends don't attend parties where there might be football players. Yeah, it's only a perception, but there it is. Who needs statistics?

If you consider what I say is refuted by lack of statistics, that's your problem. Not mine.

 

[tnt]

You still haven't answered the question of how the Griz football team is morally corrupt. You can't even provide facts about how many Griz arrests there are compared to how many UM student arrests there are. You haven't provided a single case of how the Griz football team is morally corrupt, you haven't provided a single statistic proving how often Griz football players are in trouble vs. what percentage of UM students are in trouble. At best you're providing generalizations without any facts to back them up. Now please answer the question, how is the Griz football team morally corrupt?

When the perception is such, it happens. When you have a body of deffenders who when they can no longer the other way start justifying it by trying prove that they aren't as bad as the other guys, and ultimatley turn to statistics to show they aren't as bad as the perceptions, you know its corrupt. When even in the face of Investigat%on, that virtually no one has going on, they keep going, even the doubters start to belive its corrupt.

Instead of keeping their mouths shut and letting things play out, the "defenders" don't seem to get the more noise they make the guiltier they become.

Fortunatly this little microcosm comes off as bunch of ex jocks, and wanna be jocks and is generally ignored. But sadly when the PR's and Tokyos of the world take it beyond the confines of a group discussion they can do smoe real harm. Fred V comes to mind, othwise how would 80 cases become 500. But by Gawd hes right, yeah really.

There isn't a football program in the country who hasn't had the accusations of thinking they are above the rest of the campus. But few have had the Jim Foleys, JOD, and boosters to either ignorantly or purposley prove it. Demand your statistics, convictions, proof all you want. But guess what the fat is in the fire.

Don't forget the NCAA has nasty habit of getting programs attention in very dramatic ways for very minor things.

Morality isn't a person, place or thing. Its a perception. Like it or not the only thing that will change that perception is what happens moving forward. Either fans, coaches, players, and administrators can help, or they can try to perpetuate the past.

 

[MrTitleist]

If you consider what I say is refuted by lack of statistics, that's your problem. Not mine.

So you have no problem with labeling an entire program "morally corrupt", a program of more than 100 people (at current), with no statistics, facts, or anything but your "female relative who attends the U said they don't go to parties with UM football players." Cool story, bro. You're making a HUGE generalization of an entire program spanning many years because of ~20 players have been arrested, and a smaller percentage of those have actually been convicted of a crime. Good job, good effort.

 

[Cats2506]

When the perception is such, it happens. When you have a body of deffenders who when they can no longer the other way start justifying it by trying prove that they aren't as bad as the other guys, and ultimatley turn to statistics to show they aren't as bad as the perceptions, you know its corrupt. When even in the face of Investigat%on, that virtually no one has going on, they keep going, even the doubters start to belive its corrupt.

Instead of keeping their mouths shut and letting things play out, the "defenders" don't seem to get the more noise they make the guiltier they become.

Fortunatly this little microcosm comes off as bunch of ex jocks, and wanna be jocks and is generally ignored. But sadly when the PR's and Tokyos of the world take it beyond the confines of a group discussion they can do smoe real harm. Fred V comes to mind, othwise how would 80 cases become 500. But by Gawd hes right, yeah really.

There isn't a football program in the country who hasn't had the accusations of thinking they are above the rest of the campus. But few have had the Jim Foleys, JOD, and boosters to either ignorantly or purposley prove it. Demand your statistics, convictions, proof all you want. But guess what the fat is in the fire.

Don't forget the NCAA has nasty habit of getting programs attention in very dramatic ways for very minor things.

Morality isn't a person, place or thing. Its a perception. Like it or not the only thing that will change that perception is what happens moving forward. Either fans, coaches, players, and administrators can help, or they can try to perpetuate the past.

That right there is good stuff, some fizz fans seem to get it.

 

[LakGriz]

morality is not a perception, it's behavior.

A magician uses perception to make you think he sawed somebody in half, but it isn't reality.

As to the 80 sexual assaults becoming more than 500, you might look to see if the doj changed its definition of what it was looking at, stuff the city cops -- not the county atty -- had to dig up and spent 500 hours doing, again not the county atty,

 

[Growler1]

morality is not a perception, it's behavior.

A magician uses perception to make you think he sawed somebody in half, but it isn't reality.

As to the 80 sexr half, but

You are wrong. Perception is everything. The perception around Griz nation by all but a few win-at-all-cost nuggets of wisdom is that there is a problem with the football program. Steps have been taken to correct this problem. Hopefully they will bring us back to the glory years. Just like Obama blames everything on Bush, I blame everything on Hauck. He started the culture, O'day allowed it to flourish, Pflu kept it going.

Perception is everything. Want proof? Obama is the worst president in the past 100 years. Yet, polls show that he still has 50% of Americans who will vote for him to be the worst two-term president in history. Pundits say it is because many Americans are oblivious to the issues, and vote because he speaks well, and is black. Perception is everything.

 

[Growler1]

If you consider what I say is refuted by lack of statistics, that's your problem. Not mine.

So you have no problem with labeling an entire program "morally corrupt", a program of more than 100 people (at current), with no statistics, facts, or anything but your "female relative who attends the U said they don't go to parties with UM football players." Cool story, bro. You're making a HUGE generalization of an entire program spanning many years because of ~20 players have been arrested, and a smaller percentage of those have actually been convicted of a crime. Good job, good effort.

You need to stick to doling out board warnings, and stop making stupid posts. Typical spin doctor job of demanding statistics to lamely try to defend a program that most realize has some serious issues. Pflu and O'Day were not sacrificed because they wore tidy whites instead of boxers.

 

[LakGriz]

G1 you are wrong. Is it perception or reality that you stand around with your hands in your shorts?

you introduce Obama as a proof of perception/reality, and what you have introduced is Bias.

 

[Ursa Major]

Did a deep philosophical debate almost just occur on e-griz?

 

[Growler1]

G1 you are wrong. Is it perception or reality that you stand around with your hands in your shorts?

you introduce Obama as a proof of perception/reality, and what you have introduced is Bias.

Is it perception that a man like you tries to convince us that he has NEVER scratched his balz in public? If so, the I highly recommend a needlepoint board and double-up on your Midol.

 

[Grizzoola]

Strange PlayerRep hasn't shown up in this discussion. As an attorney he must have a lot to say re: perception/reality in re: the Griz situation? I thought perception/reality is the bread & butter of attorney incomes.

 

[Spanky]

More about business financials with Player....

 

[Silvertip]

Mr. G sez Griz football players get in trouble more than other UM students, and this to me means 'morally corrupt"

Mr Grizzoola: So...let's see if I understand. Are you suggesting that those other UM students are morally corrupt - just not to the same high degree as those nasty football players?...Whew! What a relief. And who cares about logic if it sounds good...sorta... :roll:

 

[Grizzoola]

Mr. G sez Griz football players get in trouble more than other UM students, and this to me means 'morally corrupt"

Mr Grizzoola: So...let's see if I understand. Are you suggesting that those other UM students are morally corrupt - just not to the same high degree as those nasty football players?...Whew! What a relief. And who cares about logic if it sounds good...sorta... :roll:

Yeah, Silver, it is a matter of degree. But, many of us perceive that It's not just a difference of "high degree," it's a difference of GIGANTIC DEGREE, enough to make it almost a difference in kind. It's sort of like the 80/20 rule. You know, 80% of this causes 20% of that, or the other way around? Only in this case, 1% of UM students cause 99% of UM's student misconduct problems.

Were it not for football, neither Penn State nor UM would be mentioned in the same breath in national sport media stories. The national football culture, and esp. too many eGrizzers, does not realize it has a bad moral reputation, compared to other sports. Maybe unfair, but as football is glorified on the college and pro levels, it does get hit, maybe unjustly, with charges of moral lapses.

It's like football is in the same category as motorcyclists, as far as the general public is concerned. Yeah, "It's the perception, Stupid."

I still maintain that Pres. Engstrom has done a courageous act in firing Pflu and O'Day. He had no other choice in bringing to an end to a morally corrupt football culture at UM, and by doing so, he has preserved the Griz football program. Hopefully, in the future, there will be no more Griz football players in the press, any more than any other UM students.

That's my opinion, that's my perception.

 

[Silvertip]

Mr. G sez Griz football players get in trouble more than other UM students, and this to me means 'morally corrupt"

Mr Grizzoola: So...let's see if I understand. Are you suggesting that those other UM students are morally corrupt - just not to the same high degree as those nasty football players?...Whew! What a relief. And who cares about logic if it sounds good...sorta... :roll:

Yeah, Silver, it is a matter of degree. But, many of us perceive that It's not just a difference of "high degree," it's a difference of GIGANTIC DEGREE, enough to make it almost a difference in kind. It's sort of like the 80/20 rule. You know, 80% of this causes 20% of that, or the other way around? Only in this case, 1% of UM students cause 99% of UM's student misconduct problems.

Were it not for football, neither Penn State nor UM would be mentioned in the same breath in national sport media stories. The national football culture, and esp. too many eGrizzers, does not realize it has a bad moral reputation, compared to other sports. Maybe unfair, but as football is glorified on the college and pro levels, it does get hit, maybe unjustly, with charges of moral lapses.

It's like football is in the same category as motorcyclists, as far as the general public is concerned. Yeah, "It's the perception, Stupid."

I still maintain that Pres. Engstrom has done a courageous act in firing Pflu and O'Day. He had no other choice in bringing to an end to a morally corrupt football culture at UM, and by doing so, he has preserved the Griz football program. Hopefully, in the future, there will be no more Griz football players in the press, any more than any other UM students.

That's my opinion, that's my perception.

...and Ol' Royce will finally open his mouth to lead us in a couple verses of Kumbaya

 

[MrTitleist]

If you consider what I say is refuted by lack of statistics, that's your problem. Not mine.

So you have no problem with labeling an entire program "morally corrupt", a program of more than 100 people (at current), with no statistics, facts, or anything but your "female relative who attends the U said they don't go to parties with UM football players." Cool story, bro. You're making a HUGE generalization of an entire program spanning many years because of ~20 players have been arrested, and a smaller percentage of those have actually been convicted of a crime. Good job, good effort.

You need to stick to doling out board warnings, and stop making stupid posts. Typical spin doctor job of demanding statistics to lamely try to defend a program that most realize has some serious issues. Pflu and O'Day were not sacrificed because they wore tidy whites instead of boxers.

You need to stick to being banned and stop making stupid posts about things you don't know about. I'm not trying to spin anything, I want David2 to back up his bullshit with some facts instead of generalizations that sweep across the 95% of student athletes who are good student athletes and don't belong lumped in with dumbasses like Beau Donaldson and Quenton Freeman.

 

[Growler1]

If you consider what I say is refuted by lack of statistics, that's your problem. Not mine.

So you have no problem with labeling an entire program "morally corrupt", a program of more than 100 people (at current), with no statistics, facts, or anything but your "female relative who attends the U said they don't go to parties with UM football players." Cool story, bro. You're making a HUGE generalization of an entire program spanning many years because of ~20 players have been arrested, and a smaller percentage of those have actually been convicted of a crime. Good job, good effort.

You need to stick to doling out board warnings, and stop making stupid posts. Typical spin doctor job of demanding statistics to lamely try to defend a program that most realize has some serious issues. Pflu and O'Day were not sacrificed because they wore tidy whites instead of boxers.

You need to stick to being banned and stop making stupid posts about things you don't know about. I'm not trying to spin anything, I want David2 to back up his bullshit with some facts instead of generalizations that sweep across the 95% of student athletes who are good student athletes and don't belong lumped in with dumbasses like Beau Donaldson and Quenton Freeman.

ZZZZZZZZZZZ. You ban because you can. This is your big chance in life to be someone. Don't blow it, dude!

 

[mcg]

morality is not a perception, it's behavior.

A magician uses perception to make you think he sawed somebody in half, but it isn't reality.

As to the 80 sexr half, but

Obama is the worst president in the past 100 years.

Really? Worse than Herbert Hoover, who failed to do anything to end the Great Depression? Worse than Bush Jr. who started a war? Worse than Nixon, who committed a felony crime while sitting in his office?