NCAA whitepaper - UM should seek REVIEW of NCAA's sanctions

[AllWeatherFan]

Here's a fun game.

It's early 2011, and you're the president of the university. (I know, it's a stretch, but play along.) All other facts remain the same, i.e., the DOJ is in town, the NCAA is breathing down your neck, your star quarterback has been accused of a felony, etc.

Please tell us exactly, and in detail, what you would have done to "lead" the university out of this mess.

Hence our argument. There was a big mess of things going on. Then after the penalties are agreed upon what I believe are much more dubious violations get far lower penalties served against them.

I'm not interested in digging up the past and talking about what should have / would have / could have happened. What's more important is the future and seeing if something could be done to get this reduced.

I agree with your group's efforts, too, and I appreciate them. Simply put, the NCAA's punishment didn't fit the "crime."

My scenario and question is posed to the "nothing can be done until Engstrom is gone" crowd.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Here's a fun game.

It's early 2011, and you're the president of the university. (I know, it's a stretch, but play along.) All other facts remain the same, i.e., the DOJ is in town, the NCAA is breathing down your neck, your star quarterback has been accused of a felony, etc.

Please tell us exactly, and in detail, what you would have done to "lead" the university out of this mess.

After riding my harley over to the county attorney's office and planting my size dozen boot straight up ol' Freddy's bung hole, followed by a trip over to the Missoulian to give Florio a stone cold stunner, I'd prolly walk up to the M, shot gun a sixer of Rainier Ice, rip off my shirt and yell 'TANA....GOME GET YA SOME!

So yeah, I guess you could say I piss leadership.

Now we're getting somewhere! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[BWahlberg]

Here's a fun game.

It's early 2011, and you're the president of the university. (I know, it's a stretch, but play along.) All other facts remain the same, i.e., the DOJ is in town, the NCAA is breathing down your neck, your star quarterback has been accused of a felony, etc.

Please tell us exactly, and in detail, what you would have done to "lead" the university out of this mess.

Hence our argument. There was a big mess of things going on. Then after the penalties are agreed upon what I believe are much more dubious violations get far lower penalties served against them.

I'm not interested in digging up the past and talking about what should have / would have / could have happened. What's more important is the future and seeing if something could be done to get this reduced.

I agree with your group's efforts, too, and I appreciate them. Simply put, the NCAA's punishment didn't fit the "crime."

My scenario and question is posed to the "nothing can be done until Engstrom is gone" crowd.

Gotcha.

This could present an opportunity for President Engstrom to prove that crowd wrong.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Here's a fun game.

It's early 2011, and you're the president of the university. (I know, it's a stretch, but play along.) All other facts remain the same, i.e., the DOJ is in town, the NCAA is breathing down your neck, your star quarterback has been accused of a felony, etc.

Please tell us exactly, and in detail, what you would have done to "lead" the university out of this mess.

Hence our argument. There was a big mess of things going on. Then after the penalties are agreed upon what I believe are much more dubious violations get far lower penalties served against them.

I'm not interested in digging up the past and talking about what should have / would have / could have happened. What's more important is the future and seeing if something could be done to get this reduced.

I agree with your group's efforts, too, and I appreciate them. Simply put, the NCAA's punishment didn't fit the "crime."

My scenario and question is posed to the "nothing can be done until Engstrom is gone" crowd.

Gotcha.

This could present an opportunity for President Engstrom to prove that crowd wrong.

This. After all, isn't a big part of leadership about recognizing and seizing opportunities?

 

[BITB]

"Talk does not cook rice"
- Chinese Proverb
UM leadership now has the ball...again! We need to let them know as quickly and loudly as possible that no plan, no communication, no action or worse trying to disguise inaction/nonfeasance (..."we were just waiting"...) is not acceptable to Griz Nation.
The other schools simply asked the NCAA. They asked with conviction that they were doing the right thing. They asked with the confidence that they have the facts on their side.

Politicians delay, dodge, obfuscate and pontificate.
Leaders act.

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

Here's a fun game.

It's early 2011, and you're the president of the university. (I know, it's a stretch, but play along.) All other facts remain the same, i.e., the DOJ is in town, the NCAA is breathing down your neck, your star quarterback has been accused of a felony, etc.

Please tell us exactly, and in detail, what you would have done to "lead" the university out of this mess.

After riding my harley over to the county attorney's office and planting my size dozen boot straight up ol' Freddy's bung hole, followed by a trip over to the Missoulian to give Florio a stone cold stunner, I'd prolly walk up to the M, shot gun a sixer of Rainier Ice, rip off my shirt and yell 'TANA....GOME GET YA SOME!

So yeah, I guess you could say I piss leadership.

This is the best thing I have ever read!!!

 

[PlayerRep]

Here's a fun game.

It's early 2011, and you're the president of the university. (I know, it's a stretch, but play along.) All other facts remain the same, i.e., the DOJ is in town, the NCAA is breathing down your neck, your star quarterback has been accused of a felony, etc.

Please tell us exactly, and in detail, what you would have done to "lead" the university out of this mess.

Thanks for asking.

In Dec. 2011, I wouldn't have panicked and brought in a special investigator to investigate what apparently turned out to be little or nothing sexual assault things. [Even Main Hall people now admit this was an overreaction and mistake.]

I wouldn't have said some things to the press saying or insinuating that some of the same athletes/players were involved in sexual assault stuff. [The information provided to Engstrom was and must have been incorrect.]

I would have hired competent and experience legal counsel immediately in late Jan. 2012, when the DOJ came knocking, not waited 6 months, and not hired a counsel without enough exerience.

I would have fired the Dean before he botched the Saudi student matter and the JJ matter--instead of O'Day and Pflugrad. I would have thought about how many people liked and supported O'Day and Pflu, how this would like to Griz nation and the press, and considered the magnitude of the impact on fund-raising and my own reputation.

I would have properly fought and fended off the ncaa. Several of the infractions could have been fended off, and I wouldn't have offered up such drastic self-imposed sanctions. If money was an issue, I would have hired Wahlberg and his buddies to defend the action, or at least consulted them.

Had I fired O'Day and Pflu, I would have provided some explanation as to why that was necessary or done. I would have selected a permanent AD sooner--given the large number of important events and investigations that were occurring.

I would not have let Pat Williams overly influence my decisions and provide bad advice to me.

I would not have rolled over the DOJ and DOE.

I would have been on top of the declining enrollment problem at the school several years ago, and started taking more and better corrective action sooner.

And at all times, I would have provided better leadership.

 

[Ursa Major]

Here's a fun game.

It's early 2011, and you're the president of the university. (I know, it's a stretch, but play along.) All other facts remain the same, i.e., the DOJ is in town, the NCAA is breathing down your neck, your star quarterback has been accused of a felony, etc.

Please tell us exactly, and in detail, what you would have done to "lead" the university out of this mess.

After riding my harley over to the county attorney's office and planting my size dozen boot straight up ol' Freddy's bung hole, followed by a trip over to the Missoulian to give Florio a stone cold stunner, I'd prolly walk up to the M, shot gun a sixer of Rainier Ice, rip off my shirt and yell 'TANA....GOME GET YA SOME!

So yeah, I guess you could say I piss leadership.

Is your real name Randy Marsh?

 

[bigforkgriz]

I can't see RE acting on this by submitting it to the NCAA? It would mean he would essentially have to eat crow. If it was self-impose agreement with the NCAA, he would look foolish in their eyes. Also, yes it would appease many of us, but others with the thug belief would be outraged. From his viewpoint, it has put him in somewhat of an untenable situation. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Probably better in his opinion to stick with the status quo.

 

['68griz]

I can't see RE acting on this by submitting it to the NCAA? It would mean he would essentially have to eat crow. If it was self-impose agreement with the NCAA, he would look foolish in their eyes. Also, yes it would appease many of us, but others with the thug belief would be outraged. From his viewpoint, it has put him in somewhat of an untenable situation. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Probably better in his opinion to stick with the status quo.

And sticking with the status quo would affirm my opinion that Engstrom is a wuss with absolutely no backbone.

 

[Grisly Fan]

...Damned if you do and damned if you don't...

Yes, it definitely is if you are RE in this case. So the question is does he care more about himself or about what is good for the school? If he looks out for number 1 then he is the person that so many believe he is. If not then he needs to suck it up and do what's right for the greater good.

 

[argh!]

Wanted to share the full document. The Missoulian has a new story coming out this evening, I'll share that link here as well. Many have PM'd me or send me a message asking for this full document to read.

So without further delay, here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/afs3vgke9qj7564/UofM%20NCAA%20Whitepaper%20-%20A%20Call%20To%20Action%20-%20December%2020%202013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also the link to the Missoulian article, I'll grab a few good segments here:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/article_a0d51b58-b611-11e3-88bb-001a4bcf887a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The University of Montana said Thursday it’s considering a request from a group of athletic boosters asking the school to appeal sanctions imposed by the NCAA last year.

But university officials aren’t saying much more than that.

The group, led by Missoula real estate agent Brint Wahlberg and Chris Coyle, the father of former UM linebacker Brock Coyle, believes the sanctions placed upon the Grizzlies’ football program in 2013 outweigh the violations, especially when compared to other NCAA Division I schools.

“We’re not doing this to redo the past, and it’s not an argument that no violations occurred – it seems clear they did,” said Wahlberg. “But does the punishment fit the actions? Our argument is that it’s too harsh.

Peggy Kuhr, UM vice president of integrated communications, said Thursday that Engstrom did receive the letter and accompanying report, though he hasn’t indicated his next move, or if he plans to make one.

“He did have some conversation about it,” Kuhr said. “At this point, he’s taking that request and conversation under consideration.

“Why didn’t we really fight for the program as opposed to rolling over and playing dead?” said Brad Kliber, a booster and former member of the National Advisory Board for Grizzlies Athletics. “In the grand scheme of things, the violations found at UM were almost comical.”

The loss of scholarships at UM ranks only behind Penn State University and the universities of South Carolina and North Carolina. At those schools, the NCAA found major infractions ranging from sexual abuse cover-ups to academic fraud and free housing.

In comparison, UM was penalized for relatively minor violations, they say, including free home-cooked meals, storage, transportation, laundry services, and legal fees amounting to $1,500.

“From my perspective, the university made a deal with the NCAA, and they have to live with that,” said Kliber. “What I personally find a little troubling is why this group of boosters had to put this information together and urge the university to take a look at it, instead of the current administration in athletics and Main Hall doing it.”

boise state's infractions included things like helping a foreign student learn english, and the football team having an "illegal" sleepover. if you are going to describe um's infractions using dismissive lay language (i.e. "free home cooked meals"), you should do so with those committed by other schools.

 

[Grizfan-24]

boise state's infractions included things like helping a foreign student learn english, and the football team having an "illegal" sleepover. if you are going to describe um's infractions using dismissive lay language (i.e. "free home cooked meals"), you should do so with those committed by other schools.

BSU's was a culture of non-compliance or maybe 'what i don't see' isn't actually happening.' Maybe that was or is the case within the AD at the UofM, but I never got the impression O'Day was Bleymaier. Bleymaier, as it was explained to me, had to resign or face further penalties by the NCAA. He as the NCAA saw it, as did many boosters, was part of the problem. He was maybe the most powerful man in Boise just prior to his 'retirement.'

That being said, as corrupt as the NCAA is, or as inept as our Administration was or is at the UofM, a failure to monitor in whatever degree of which the UofM was tagged with is still failure to monitor.

The NCAA has had a long track record of enforcing penalties on a case by case basis using similar ones to levy punishments. It was the UofM's responsibility to propose a punishment that was in line with similar cases. The problem was the UofM Admin was dealing with a perception that had become reality. The football program in perception had become Penn State and Miami when even after the violations were reported there was a reality that didn't match the perception of what was going on. The UofM was afraid, pure and simple, that the NCAA was going to come back with a more harsh penality (ie post season ban) and proposed a punishment that in most cases equaled the likelihood of that reality (no post season).

As much as I applaud what Brint and others are doing, fighting for the football program, I just don't see the NCAA or the UofM admit in any way they over responded to the perception and not the reality. Bureaucratic organizations just don't admit mistakes very often.

 

[PlayerRep]

Wanted to share the full document. The Missoulian has a new story coming out this evening, I'll share that link here as well. Many have PM'd me or send me a message asking for this full document to read.

So without further delay, here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/afs3vgke9qj7564/UofM%20NCAA%20Whitepaper%20-%20A%20Call%20To%20Action%20-%20December%2020%202013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also the link to the Missoulian article, I'll grab a few good segments here:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/article_a0d51b58-b611-11e3-88bb-001a4bcf887a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The University of Montana said Thursday it’s considering a request from a group of athletic boosters asking the school to appeal sanctions imposed by the NCAA last year.

But university officials aren’t saying much more than that.

The group, led by Missoula real estate agent Brint Wahlberg and Chris Coyle, the father of former UM linebacker Brock Coyle, believes the sanctions placed upon the Grizzlies’ football program in 2013 outweigh the violations, especially when compared to other NCAA Division I schools.

“We’re not doing this to redo the past, and it’s not an argument that no violations occurred – it seems clear they did,” said Wahlberg. “But does the punishment fit the actions? Our argument is that it’s too harsh.

Peggy Kuhr, UM vice president of integrated communications, said Thursday that Engstrom did receive the letter and accompanying report, though he hasn’t indicated his next move, or if he plans to make one.

“He did have some conversation about it,” Kuhr said. “At this point, he’s taking that request and conversation under consideration.

“Why didn’t we really fight for the program as opposed to rolling over and playing dead?” said Brad Kliber, a booster and former member of the National Advisory Board for Grizzlies Athletics. “In the grand scheme of things, the violations found at UM were almost comical.”

The loss of scholarships at UM ranks only behind Penn State University and the universities of South Carolina and North Carolina. At those schools, the NCAA found major infractions ranging from sexual abuse cover-ups to academic fraud and free housing.

In comparison, UM was penalized for relatively minor violations, they say, including free home-cooked meals, storage, transportation, laundry services, and legal fees amounting to $1,500.

“From my perspective, the university made a deal with the NCAA, and they have to live with that,” said Kliber. “What I personally find a little troubling is why this group of boosters had to put this information together and urge the university to take a look at it, instead of the current administration in athletics and Main Hall doing it.”

boise state's infractions included things like helping a foreign student learn english, and the football team having an "illegal" sleepover. if you are going to describe um's infractions using dismissive lay language (i.e. "free home cooked meals"), you should do so with those committed by other schools.

Boise St's infractions were much worse, involved recruiting violations, involved many more athletes, and occurred over a much longer period of time (except for the Griz Mom who apparently provided in-home meals for a long period of time). See below:

"Boise State had already self-imposed the probationary period in the wake of violations involving more than 75 prospects and student-athletes across five different sports.

Boise State will now have its football scholarships reduced from 85 to 82 for the 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 academic years.

In its statement, the NCAA said, "Boise State failed to establish an adequate compliance system to report NCAA rules violations with regard to impermissible housing, transportation and other benefits to prospective and enrolled student-athletes. The university failed to provide adequate rules education and training to staff members to ensure compliance.

"In addition, the university failed to monitor its program to deter, find and report instances of NCAA violations to the NCAA."

The Committee on Infractions cited recruiting, impermissible housing and transportation violations in the football program during the summers of 2005 through 2009. In particular, the committee noted that the football violations occurred over a lengthy period of time and involved 63 prospective student-athletes."

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6966240/ncaa-hands-boise-state-broncos-three-years-probation-scholarship-reduction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[George Ferguson]

Player, all good points. ONE OF THE BIGGEST OF MANY TRAVESTIES in this s--t storm is, RE not ever publicly commenting on the firing of O'Day and Pflu. And to anyone who will fire back with the "Potential Lawsuit" excuse, spare me the drug story legal advice. I have done hours and hours and hours of research on that particular situation, and I can't find a single solitary example of a head football coach at a major NCAA Division I institution being dismissed with the announcement being a three-paragraph e-mail, only originally sent to five people, and then posted on that school's sports website a FULL 24 hours AFTER the firing took place. I can find A TON OF college football coaches who have been dismissed at NCAA institutions over the years, including many high-profile names, and NONE of them were announced in the manner that Pflu's firing was. I have always contended that whatever side of the Pflu firing people fell on, the University of Montana sherked a major responsibility to its students, its supporters, all of the Grizzly fans, and the tax payers of Montana for never uttering a public peep about the dismissal of Robin Pflugrad. To me, that is one of the single biggest slap's to the faces of ALL OF US that care about this entire mess.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Player, all good points. ONE OF THE BIGGEST OF MANY TRAVESTIES in this s--t storm is, RE not ever publicly commenting on the firing of O'Day and Pflu. And to anyone who will fire back with the "Potential Lawsuit" excuse, spare me the drug story legal advice. I have done hours and hours and hours of research on that particular situation, and I can't find a single solitary example of a head football coach at a major NCAA Division I institution being dismissed with the announcement being a three-paragraph e-mail, only originally sent to five people, and then posted on that school's sports website a FULL 24 hours AFTER the firing took place. I can find A TON OF college football coaches who have been dismissed at NCAA institutions over the years, including many high-profile names, and NONE of them were announced in the manner that Pflu's firing was. I have always contended that whatever side of the Pflu firing people fell on, the University of Montana sherked a major responsibility to its students, its supporters, all of the Grizzly fans, and the tax payers of Montana for never uttering a public peep about the dismissal of Robin Pflugrad. To me, that is one of the single biggest slap's to the faces of ALL OF US that care about this entire mess.

Totally agree that is was fucked up. But, doesn't the fact that it was fucked up in the EXACT way you note support the notion of not publicly commenting due, at least in part, to a potential lawsuit? You've identified an anomalistic situation, but think it should be treated normally in terms of public comment? While I don't think I've ever given "drug story" legal advice, I readily admit that I practice out of the local CVS.

 

[bigforkgriz]

...Damned if you do and damned if you don't...

Yes, it definitely is if you are RE in this case. So the question is does he care more about himself or about what is good for the school? If he looks out for number 1 then he is the person that so many believe he is. If not then he needs to suck it up and do what's right for the greater good.

Looking out for number 1 was kind of my point as to why he won't do anything. All the discussions on this thread about the merit in the reasoning of the white paper will have little bearing on his decision.

 

[PlayerRep]

Hav, assume you saw this part of my longer comment above:

"Had I fired O'Day and Pflu, I would have provided some explanation as to why that was necessary or done. I would have selected a permanent AD sooner--given the large number of important events and investigations that were occurring."

At least as of several weeks ago, Pflu didn't have a new job. From head coach of a top FCS team in the semis, to not be able to get a job. Wow. The damage inflicted by the firing and Engstrom is immeasurable. Someday he will get his due. Rumors starting to circulate that Engstrom will be gone in a year. I don't have good or first hand info, but I hope that's true.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Hav, assume you saw this part of my longer comment above:

"Had I fired O'Day and Pflu, I would have provided some explanation as to why that was necessary or done. I would have selected a permanent AD sooner--given the large number of important events and investigations that were occurring."

At least as of several weeks ago, Pflu didn't have a new job. From head coach of a top FCS team in the semis, to not be able to get a job. Wow. The damage inflicted by the firing and Engstrom is immeasurable. Someday he will get his due. Rumors starting to circulate that Engstrom will be gone in a year. I don't have good or first hand info, but I hope that's true.

I sure hope the rumors your heard have some teeth.

 

[UMGriz75]

Player, all good points. ONE OF THE BIGGEST OF MANY TRAVESTIES in this s--t storm is, RE not ever publicly commenting on the firing of O'Day and Pflu.

It was par with the "Saudi Student" debacle that essentially started this whole travesty. Engstrom didn't know what to do, and piddled around until the kid took off, leaving none of this "justice for the victims" but rather cooperating in denying it to them. The bungling of that led to a perceived "need" to be "forward leaning," "proactive," "in charge," etc. by hiring an "investigator" who had never done anything like this in her entire life to "make a report" and putting out a self-serving press release stating that UM was finally going to get to the bottom of why 15,000 males and females between the ages of 18 and 25 sometimes touch each other off campus, and sometimes do so inappropriately.

During that time, of course, at the other institution, Cruzado was undertaking a confidential internal investigation with no fanfare at all as to why a 45 year old faculty member was touching female students between the ages of 18 and 25 on and off campus, using University facilities and his position, and including advances to a high school student, and allegations that other faculty knew about it and had not reported it. And nobody heard about that because there was not a president there who was trying to make personal hay out of a tragedy.

The "Report" came back; didn't really say anything negative about the AD or the Coach, so Engstrom had to fire them. Just had to. Oh yeah, the internal MSU report came back and concluded "oops, we've got a real problem here." But the UM Report concluded that the chain of command wasn't well defined; of course, Engstrom was in charge of that. So, of course he had to fire somebody else.

After he had created a firestorm of "rape nation," he had to do something!

And since he had no support from his "report" for firing anybody, but decided he could look "proactive," "in charge," etc., if he fired somebody to show that by God he was serious about ... something. And then did it by mumbling down into his shoes and then sending out an email because he had never done anything like this before, and had never even thought about it before. Then. Or since. Or why sometimes "leadership" is shown as much by how you do things as what you do.

Of course the roof caved in. He had been so cooperative with the "rape nation" agenda -- never once trotting out the easily available statistics to show it wasn't true -- that everyone believed it must be true. Engstrom would not defend his institution.

Then the DOJ rolls into town, and Engstrom quickly sells out student's basic rights. He would not defend his own students or faculty.

Then NCAA looks crossways at him, and he just as quickly voluntarily pleads up arguable regulatory misdemeanors into stiff penalty felonies. He would not defend his institution, his staff, or his teams.

Then he has audacity to go to the board of regents and claim with a straight face that the University of Montana has ... an enrollment problem.

Can he fix it? I doubt it. When a person exercises such a compelling and notable lack of good judgment on so many issues affecting so many people, right down to the strength and integrity of an institution that he has demonstrated that he will not lift a finger for, what can he do?

Engstrom didn't provide an explanation for the firings, because he didn't have one. His own "report" gave him no cover for that. It was a reflex reaction attempting to look as decisive as possible in the face of his fast-crumbling reputation and he had read somewhere once that firing coaches is a sure fire way to reacquire faculty approval.