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NAU v. Montana Game Thread

Since my post, I caught up with the other game thread posts. I hate to be hard on any GRIZ team. It also looks like to me, compared to GRIZ teams over the last 5 years, collectively this group lacks consistent fire, tenacity, and willingness to run through walls. Gregory and Dunn have that every minute they are on the court. Beyond those 2, there are guys holding back. In a few cases, holding back often in terms of defense, and rebounding. I will also say, it is not any of our Freshman. I won't yet mention player names out of respect to Wayne, his staff, and the players, but this team is lacking some in areas of fortitude/attitude. There is no way in the world this would be accepted if Cherry and/or Ward were back this season. Leaders have to step up beyond what the stat lines will dictate.
 
I think the bigs have become the easy scapegoats for this year. I didn't think they played all that bad tonight.
I like Weisner a lot...as a role player. Not so much as a heavy minutes guy, so I watch and judge him a lot and I have to say I thought he played a good game. Hutch and Martin played good minutes in the first half but didn't get much time in the second.
We went small in the second half and got punished for it. After the half NAU did a good job of dealing with our pressure on defense, we didn't continue to hit our 3's at a 70% clip and they flat outworked our little line-up. Still, the bigs are getting the blame for this one?

The good news is that Gonzaga was on espn and Stanford was on foxsports 1 so we were able to watch some Montana kids play tonight. Admittedly, neither played all that well, but it was nice to keep an eye on those games as I watched Emerson and Bradshaw sit on the end of the bench and watch with the rest of us as our team washington lost.
 
temp said:
I think the bigs have become the easy scapegoats for this year. I didn't think they played all that bad tonight.
I like Weisner a lot...as a role player. Not so much as a heavy minutes guy, so I watch and judge him a lot and I have to say I thought he played a good game. Hutch and Martin played good minutes in the first half but didn't get much time in the second.
We went small in the second half and got punished for it. After the half NAU did a good job of dealing with our pressure on defense, we didn't continue to hit our 3's at a 70% clip and they flat outworked our little line-up. Still, the bigs are getting the blame for this one?

The good news is that Gonzaga was on espn and Stanford was on foxsports 1 so we were able to watch some Montana kids play tonight. Admittedly, neither played all that well, but it was nice to keep an eye on those games as I watched Emerson and Bradshaw sit on the end of the bench and watch with the rest of us as our team washington lost.
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The lack of big man productivity each and every game, including this one, is a huge problem. Neither Hutch or Andy were effective in this loss to NAU. If you think what went on tonight in terms of post play was not "all that bad", then I think you have become way too used to our non-productive post play. :roll: If things continue like this, it is hard to envision the Griz winning much more than half their league games this year. I would sure like to see Kemp get some significant minutes at the post. He did not play at all tonight. I am not sure that Tinks has much to lose at this point. He has frequently stated that Kemp excels at rebounding during practices. Maybe it is time to give him a start and see what happens.
 
Given how this game played out, I'm sorta glad we ended up not going. We're planning to go to the Sac State game Saturday night. Hope the outcome is better.
 
temp said:
I think the bigs have become the easy scapegoats for this year. I didn't think they played all that bad tonight.
I like Weisner a lot...as a role player. Not so much as a heavy minutes guy, so I watch and judge him a lot and I have to say I thought he played a good game. Hutch and Martin played good minutes in the first half but didn't get much time in the second. We went small in the second half and got punished for it.
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That's how I saw it.

They played in the first half, it was pretty much our game. They didn't play much in the second half, we lost control of the game.

Still, it's hard to point to the difference except that NAU was getting inside in the second half more effectively. BUT, our strong leaders just weren't getting the edge that we usually see them get when they are under pressure. The intensity didn't come up. It just wasn't there. That was puzzling. Because it is not typical of these very strong, very fired up players.

Rebounding is a puzzler though, as well. And that is typical. The ball goes up, doesn't matter which team shoots, and UM always watches it go up. Like, "Hmmm, there goes the basketball" and they all look at it like they wonder if it will go in or not. NOBODY IS POSITIONING. When the ball is shot, there can be five guys bunched on one side of the basket but as soon as that ball bounces off the rim or the backboard, there are still five guys bunched on one side of the basket, watching it go up and bounce off, leaving 50% (or the arbitrary area) of the potential rebound area unprotected.

And too, if Jamar is within ten feet of the rebound, or if Gregory is within ten feet of the rebound, there will be a fight for it. Andy or Hutch? No. It is frustrating. Andy will lose it when it comes right to him. Hutch will bat it rather than grab it.

Hutch can do it. He's got the physique, and sometimes he'll make the move. He did a couple of nice things tonight. Good stuff. He needs a life-changing experience to know that. He needs to go work out with Cooper Kupp (cross training!!) and learn how to want to get the ball so badly you jump higher than anybody else and grab it with a death grip. IT IS YOURS!!

Andy just needs to play and play and play.

You can just see it, it's almost there for him. He needs to be pushed into using that amazing framework. He's not a fighter yet. The talent is there, the killer instinct is not. If you put Gregory's intensity into Andy's body, can you imagine?

Who can push him? Wayne needs to go one and one with him, a lot. Andy needs to work against another big guy, one that intimidates him physically and mentally, and learn how to move with and around them. Few teams have the luxury that the Coach is that guy. I know exactly what its like to be an older coach, and have to challenge a 19 year old, personally, to raise their bar. But, Andy is ... just about there, and its frustrating not to see him get what he needs.

Caveat: I am, according to knowledgeable posters, a "complete dope," and they are likely correct when it comes to basketball. I am only hoping that "basketball autism" might produce a reasonable observation once in a while simply by accident.
 
I agree Andy is about there. I think consistent 20 minutes per game for him would benefit the whole team come tournament time. Ditto Kemp. The team defense is also better when Andy is in there. Offensively it helps Weisner not having as much physical toll on his body that is not made for what he has to do now.
 
GrizWhiz said:
temp said:
I think the bigs have become the easy scapegoats for this year. I didn't think they played all that bad tonight.
I like Weisner a lot...as a role player. Not so much as a heavy minutes guy, so I watch and judge him a lot and I have to say I thought he played a good game. Hutch and Martin played good minutes in the first half but didn't get much time in the second.
We went small in the second half and got punished for it. After the half NAU did a good job of dealing with our pressure on defense, we didn't continue to hit our 3's at a 70% clip and they flat outworked our little line-up. Still, the bigs are getting the blame for this one?

The good news is that Gonzaga was on espn and Stanford was on foxsports 1 so we were able to watch some Montana kids play tonight. Admittedly, neither played all that well, but it was nice to keep an eye on those games as I watched Emerson and Bradshaw sit on the end of the bench and watch with the rest of us as our team washington lost.
Click to expand...
The lack of big man productivity each and every game, including this one, is a huge problem. Neither Hutch or Andy were effective in this loss to NAU. If you think what went on tonight in terms of post play was not "all that bad", then I think you have become way too used to our non-productive post play. :roll: If things continue like this, it is hard to envision the Griz winning much more than half their league games this year. I would sure like to see Kemp get some significant minutes at the post. He did not play at all tonight. I am not sure that Tinks has much to lose at this point. He has frequently stated that Kemp excels at rebounding during practices. Maybe it is time to give him a start and see what happens.
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I am with you in that our big are not very good and they are a big issue, but I have to disagree that they cost us this game.

NAU's starting guards combined for 41 pts shooting 61% from the floor. They combined for 7 assists and 7 rebounds.

Our Griz starting guards combined for 23 pts shooting 43% from the floor. They combined for 1 assist and 2 rebounds

Sorry, but it's hard for me to pin this one on the bigs.
 
temp said:
The good news is that Gonzaga was on espn and Stanford was on foxsports 1 so we were able to watch some Montana kids play tonight. Admittedly, neither played all that well, but it was nice to keep an eye on those games as I watched Emerson and Bradshaw sit on the end of the bench and watch with the rest of us as our team washington lost.
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Is this the stereotypical, waaaaaaah, we don't have enough Montana kids on the roster post? Or are you just saying it helps the loss go down easier cause you saw someone from the state "not play all that well" in other games?

Emerson and Bradshaw are at the end of the bench for a reason. They earned it by not being very effective. They can have plenty of minutes in the frontier if they want them. Not sure if 1 or both are on scholarship, but they are wasted spots either way.

I'm no Weber fan, but at least I won't have top gag if they win the conference and don't whine that they only have 1 utah kidd on the roster.
 
I can agree with most of you about the issues with our bigs. It definitely needs to get better but I also wouldn't completely hang this loss on them. To be honest, NAU wanted that game very badly and more than UM did. Even though that was true, we still almost pulled it out.

This was one of those games where just about everything NAU threw up there went in. Yes, at times the defense missed assignments and they had easy shots. But much more of the time NAU just hit tough shot after tough shot. That kind of scoring is contagious and it really took over in the 2nd half. The final nail in the coffin was that last 3 pointer that put them up by 4. That shot was about 4 feet behind the 3-point line with the shooter fading to his left...really tough shot.

That's no excuse. UM should have won this game and could have done some things a lot better on the inside and outside that could have rattled NAU out of that shooting-zone they got into in the second half. It was clear this game was huge for NAU and they went for it and got it!
 
I believe another thing really hurting the Griz right now is the loss of Bill Evans last year and Freddy Owens this year. Those 2 were really good coaches and I don't think it is a coincidence that the Griz had a losing record the previous 2 seasons before they arrive, and it immediately turned around to the current run of success the Griz have had.

It is too bad Freddy couldn't have stuck around 1 more year, I doubt Bone will last another year at WSU and with another BSC tournament Tinkle would have been nearly a certainty for the job (lot easier to sell Tres on playing for his dad at Pac 12 WSU than UM I am sure).
 
UMGriz75 said:
grizindabox said:
so now you are not only saying that the Griz have no heart, but that Tinkle did a poor job coaching....
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Oh my gosh. Wow. I think we lost the game. There are reasons why. It didn't just "happen."
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You are correct, and the big reason is the giant void at the 4 and 5 spots.

Lack of rebounding decreases offensive opportunities for the Griz and increases offensive opportunities for the opponent. Lack of an offensive weapon in the paint increases the pressure on the perimeter to pick up the slack. Just as the Griz lack of an offensive weapon in the paint, the lack of a defensive presence in the paint allows the opponent more inside options and opens the inside/outside kick out for open jumpers. The Griz battle every game, but they are limited by roster deficiencies. They will win games on hustle, perimeter shooting, and toughness but they will lose games like NAU due to lack of ability at the 4 and 5.
 
Bone & Company's future was spelled out last night in Tucson - scoring 25 points against
#1 Arizona. Twenty-five! That's not a typo...and the Griz are indabox. It's called a coffin.
 
temp said:
I am with you in that our big are not very good and they are a big issue, but I have to disagree that they cost us this game.

NAU's starting guards combined for 41 pts shooting 61% from the floor. They combined for 7 assists and 7 rebounds.

Our Griz starting guards combined for 23 pts shooting 43% from the floor. They combined for 1 assist and 2 rebounds

Sorry, but it's hard for me to pin this one on the bigs.
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And NAU was scoring the three pointers. That didn't have anything to do with the big guys. NAU had a hot shooting night, no doubt, and our three point shooters didn't. The stats clearly show that. And our starting guards are generally much better on rebounds as well.

Our four best rebounders (season total) are Jammar (67), Gregory (25), and DeShields and Weisner (24). Per game average, 6.7, 2.5, 2.4 and 2.4. [Hutch and Andy, 2.3 and 1.7].

Gregory and DeShields were just out of it last night, with just one rebound each. Jamar with 8 and Weisner with 5 beat their averages. Andy and Hutch got 3 each.

NAU had three players in double digits (23, 21, 18), we had just two (21, 17). Weisner had just 8 points. Cold night out of ten attempts.

“That’s pretty anemic defense,” Montana coach Wayne Tinkle said. “For the first time in a while I just saw our guys really get in a funk and get on their own kind of plan, defensively and offensively. They made a nice little run to start the half, we answered it … but we had guys lose focus, get too emotional and it just piled on from there.”
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I have no doubt the team will respond. They might not win the conference in 2014, but it won't be due to a lack of effort.
 
scottsgriz said:
temp said:
The good news is that Gonzaga was on espn and Stanford was on foxsports 1 so we were able to watch some Montana kids play tonight. Admittedly, neither played all that well, but it was nice to keep an eye on those games as I watched Emerson and Bradshaw sit on the end of the bench and watch with the rest of us as our team washington lost.
Click to expand...

Is this the stereotypical, waaaaaaah, we don't have enough Montana kids on the roster post? Or are you just saying it helps the loss go down easier cause you saw someone from the state "not play all that well" in other games?
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No, it's the stereotypical defending MT kids post. You belittle the Frontier but just two games ago a team of mostly MT kids came into our house and put such a scare into Tinkle that he felt compelled to give the now infamous come to Jesus talk. They had a PF from Bozeman that was without question the best frontcourt player in the game and a guard from Three Forks that played right with our starters and was better than any of our bench guys.
Huestis is a double-double machine in the pac12. Edwards is playing good minutes as a true freshman big man at a top 25 school. The Robison kid at msu has gotten a lot of minutes in the last 5 or 6 games and he has been very productive.
Montana kids are succeeding everywhere they have been given a chance. I think the notion that MT basketball has been bad in the last decade is not accurate. I always have and always will stand up for the in-state kids.
 
temp, you are wrong. Boys basketball in Montana is not very good overall. There are Div 1 type players, but not as many as you are trying to convince us. The Griz may have struggled against Western, but I did not see any kids on their roster that is a Div 1 talent. That said, the Griz lack Div 1 talent at both the 4 and 5 positions which goes a long way as to why they are struggling.
 
Huestis
Edwards
Emerson
Bradshaw
Robison
Osweiler-high major offers, chose football
Rodderick-two offers, chose football
Ben Roberts-offer, chose baseball

Off the top of my head that is 8 in the last five years that have been awarded or were offered D1 scholarships. Throw in Colt Idol who walked on at msu and sold Huse until he destroyed his knee before his first game and that is 9. Go back another year and you have Garland who should have been D1 and Geoff Hogan who went to Tulane and was a part time starter his JR and SR year. That makes 11 in 6 years with four having high major offers. Thats not counting the naia guys we could go round and around about.

I may be wrong but are all of those college coaches wrong too? That seems like a lot of offers considering the logistics our two D1 coaches trying to recruit in a state this big with no AAU presence. It is very tough for them and any other coaches to see in-state kids play.

Only Huestis, Bradshaw, Osweiler and now Tres have been able to play AAU ball and they have been the kids that have gotten high major offers. That is not just a coincidence.
 
btw, grizindabox...I am not trying to be snooty. We can agree to disagree, just explaining my thoughts on it.
 
I'm siding with Temp in this thread. Take it another step: there are six Montana high school preps (jr-sr) who -- as I understand -- have already been contacted by Div. 1 programs, five of whom have been mentioned by name in various recent posts on egriz.

That doesn't count the players who've been invited by division 1 coaches for possible "walk on" arrangements of one sort or another.
 
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