MT/WY All Star game

[jsb]

I just thought I'd share a few thoughts on what I witnessed at the MT/WY All Star game on Saturday. First off, let's start with Kendal Manuel from Billings Skyview. I know he's going to a prep school in AZ next year, but someone please explain to me how he was not offered by anyone! I've seen him play 5 times now and each time I've thought he's a surefire D-1 prospect. Tres Tinkle is a specimen, but he shot poorly from the line and I was expecting more of a killer instinct. It was tough to gauge Jared Samuelson because he picked up 4 fouls in about 10 minutes of game time and then was limited because of those fouls. Matt Wyman can flat out fly, which unfortunately was only shown in pregame.

On the girls side, McKenzie Johnston was in my mind, by far, the best player out there. She didn't score much but her instincts, defense, and ball handling was incredible. She must have had around 10 steals and maybe that many assists. Lizzy Klinker is going to be a great player for Utah State. She's quite athletic and under control. Brina Hull impressed me a lot just with her effort. She may not have prototypical collegiate size, but you can't really teach heart. Carroll College got a steal with Brooke Jones. I personally believe that she should have received some D-1 offers (maybe she did), but she will tear up the Frontier.

 

[mtgrizrule]

I just thought I'd share a few thoughts on what I witnessed at the MT/WY All Star game on Saturday. First off, let's start with Kendal Manuel from Billings Skyview. I know he's going to a prep school in AZ next year, but someone please explain to me how he was not offered by anyone! I've seen him play 5 times now and each time I've thought he's a surefire D-1 prospect. Tres Tinkle is a specimen, but he shot poorly from the line and I was expecting more of a killer instinct. It was tough to gauge Jared Samuelson because he picked up 4 fouls in about 10 minutes of game time and then was limited because of those fouls. Matt Wyman can flat out fly, which unfortunately was only shown in pregame.

On the girls side, McKenzie Johnston was in my mind, by far, the best player out there. She didn't score much but her instincts, defense, and ball handling was incredible. She must have had around 10 steals and maybe that many assists. Lizzy Klinker is going to be a great player for Utah State. She's quite athletic and under control. Brina Hull impressed me a lot just with her effort. She may not have prototypical collegiate size, but you can't really teach heart. Carroll College got a steal with Brooke Jones. I personally believe that she should have received some D-1 offers (maybe she did), but she will tear up the Frontier.

I too feel Manuel has Div 1 skills, but needs an extra year to find consistency in his game. Last summer, I'd see him control 1 game, then the next game struggle to find his game. He needs to play near or at the top of his game more often. I feel prep school is a wise decision on his part.

I felt the same of Tres in last year's team camp. Odd thing is, after the GRIZ team camp, he went onto higher profile camps, tournaments, etc and showed well against better competition. Maybe he gets bored when the competition is not as good as he is. I really am not sure. Whatever it is, I hope he learns quickly, you have to want it every game in the PAC 12. I hope Wayne will allow the upper classmen to take him under their wings. That is what will take his game to a higher level. He is too used to being THE MAN! Then again, consider it a huge positive, when that is the only somewhat negative someone can find in his game. He is a well rounded player. Maybe that killer instinct will come as he gets older. :thumb:

 

[temp]

I felt the same of Tres in last year's team camp. Odd thing is, after the GRIZ team camp, he went onto higher profile camps, tournaments, etc and showed well against better competition. Maybe he gets bored when the competition is not as good as he is. I really am not sure. Whatever it is, I hope he learns quickly, you have to want it every game in the PAC 12. I hope Wayne will allow the upper classmen to take him under their wings. That is what will take his game to a higher level. He is too used to being THE MAN! Then again, consider it a huge positive, when that is the only somewhat negative someone can find in his game. He is a well rounded player. Maybe that killer instinct will come as he gets older. :thumb:

This is something I have pondered in the past and being the Montana homer I am I always took the fact that players like Tres didn't dominate all the time here, but excelled and the higher profile camps and tournaments to mean that the players here are not near as bad as some would like you to believe.

I started thinking along those lines when Bradshaw was in HS. He was always very good and and I thought he was a D1 guy when I first saw him as a freshman but if you watched a lot of HS ball around that time you could find maybe a handful of kids with similar size and skill sets. Yet he always tore it up in AAU and had multiple offers from some big name schools.

Maybe, just maybe it's not a fluke or them just rising up when they leave the state. Maybe it's that we have kids that are on their level.

(hope that didn't come across as disrespect for Riley B. Like I said I am a fan and believer, I just think some of his MT rivals could play too!)

 

[grizbud]

I wouldn't look into the performance or stats too much of guys that already have scholarships locked up. Tinkle, Samuelson, and Bradshaw in the past have nothing to prove at these games and are looking more so to have fun with guys that they play AAU with or have known since they were younger...In other words, it doesn't matter that much to them.

 

[citygriz]

yo, temp, this is a very interesting post.

in football, montana players have absolutely excelled, consistently, for years. what have we had, five, six, seven montana kids play in the n.f.l. the past five years, not to mention a pipeline that has fed a program that has been consistently great for 25 years.

ditto women's basketball. i personally wish selvig would recruit more african-americans, but you can't deny he's built a consistently solid program over many years largely on the strength of his montana recruits--not to mention the legion of montana players that have starred out of state.

so what's up with men's basketball? how is it that a program that has been so good the past decade has done it without any significant contributions from montana kids? are the montana kids just not that good? or, unlike football, that we don't get the best? or that we simply don't recruit them.

so that's the question, why montana players have contributed so much to our football and women's basketball teams, and so little to men's basketball. go figure.

 

[mtgrizrule]

yo, temp, this is a very interesting post.

in football, montana players have absolutely excelled, consistently, for years. what have we had, five, six, seven montana kids play in the n.f.l. the past five years, not to mention a pipeline that has fed a program that has been consistently great for 25 years.

ditto women's basketball. i personally wish selvig would recruit more african-americans, but you can't deny he's built a consistently solid program over many years largely on the strength of his montana recruits--not to mention the legion of montana players that have starred out of state.

so what's up with men's basketball? how is it that a program that has been so good the past decade has done it without any significant contributions from montana kids? are the montana kids just not that good? or, unlike football, that we don't get the best? or that we simply don't recruit them.

so that's the question, why montana players have contributed so much to our football and women's basketball teams, and so little to men's basketball. go figure.

Citay, good ? and points you made. I will give you my opinion of a few reasons for MT not having very good basketball.

(1) In a state with a small population, there just are not that many DIV 1 caliber athletes. The popularity of football in the state has hurt basketball. The majority of in state div 1 caliber male athletes usually choose football as their sport to focus on. Football is their priority. Ironic, the few males who do play div 1 basketball, have only focused on basketball? Ironic, the multi sport male athletes, are playing college football? Many parent's cannot afford or do not have the connections to allow their sons to play summer travel basketball at high national level.

The next sure fire div 1 basketball recruit, Rayshawn Evans, will be playing his summer basketball for a travel team from North or South Carolina. His father lives in that region, from what I hear. Tres Tinkle was born with the div 1 basketball gene. He was also fortunate to have a family that could accommodate him to play at a high national level every summer. I don't know much about Josh Huestis, but do know his passion was basketball. Derek Selvig, like Tres Tinkle, born with basketball genes, and a family with many basketball connections. Bryden Boehning, flew under the radar and was a border line div 1 recruit. The GRIZ took a chance on being able to build him up into a DIV 1 player. Had he not been 6'10" he would not be playing div 1 ball. I feel the gamble on him will pay off for him and the program. Riley Bradshaw, grew up with his father being a basketball coach. Riley's passion has been basketball his whole life. Samuelson, also was born with basketball in his genes, and a father who is a former GRIZ. His passion has also been basketball.

Those are the top in state players going back the last several years. Throw in MSU's top in state players too, and most of them were basketball only athletes. The multisport male athletes usually choose football. Why do they choose football?

(2) Coaching. Unfortunately for basketball, the majority of talented coaches choose to build a coaching career in football. The quality and depth of HS solid to terrific coaches runs much deeper in football at levels. That makes sense being Montana is most definitely a football state. Also football coaches can only hone their coaching skills within the public and private schools. With basketball, many of the better basketball coaches choose to coach regional and even national level travel programs verses putting up with the politics and restrictions of educational system. Over the last 20 years, I feel there has been a huge drop off in quality basketball coaching at the jr high and high school levels. A school that can find and keep a quality basketball coach is difficult these days, and should consider themselves fortunate when they do make a quality hire.

(3) It has been a very long time since the GRIZ or Cats had a head coach committed to getting to know the in state coaches, programs, schools, and players state wide. These days, the players need to visit and participate in GRIZ or Cat basketball camps, or come to the programs to get their name out there. Very seldom are the coaches traveling the state to introduce themselves to the states coaches and players. I became a GRIZ basketball fan because Blaine Taylor took the time to visit my school's basketball camp when I was in elementary school. That experience impacted me and most every boy in our school.

(4) Think back to where HS football was in the state before the 1990's. Many of the HS football coaches were restricting their players to committing themselves to being good enough to play for one of the frontier level schools. Since then, most HS coaches encourage their players to work towards playing DIV 1 football and setting their sights to play for the GRIZ or Cats. That alone has been a huge impact for instate football recruiting. Meanwhile, the male basketball players are few and far between that have the encouragement and support to work toward playing Div 1 basketball. Many of the coaches could care less if any player even plays college basketball. There needs to be more basketball coaches who will push, support, and encourage their players to work toward playing Div 1 basketball!!!!! That mindset is not prevalent in basketball in enough communities, schools, and programs.

Montana girls basketball players have basketball as their #1 choice for playing college ball. There has been very little competition in which direction to steer the female athletes. It will be interesting to see how the addition of GRIZ women's softball will impact the number of Div 1 female basketball players. Can softball in the state be the equivalent for the girls, as football is for the boys? I have a feeling there will be some girls lost to softball as the program continues to build.

The 1st time I spoke to Travis, he mentioned he wanted to make Montana more of a basketball state. How he plans to do that, or even if it is a priority of his, I don't know. However, I do feel he is right. If the GRIZ and Cat coaching staffs can commit more to the state as a whole the quality of in state basketball recruits could again become very prevalent. In my opinion, that will take years and maybe even a generation or 2.

I'd like to hear what others think of this. Thanks for your post Citay, it sure got me thinking. :thumb:

 

[grizindabox]

Manuel is headed to Oregon State

 

[mtgrizrule]

Manuel is headed to Oregon State

Good for him. :thumb:

 

[grizonbob]

There was a good story in the Oregonian about Manual's commitment to OSU.

http://www.oregonlive.com/recruiting/index.ssf/2015/06/kendal_manuel_montanas_no_2_pr.html

 

[Atlanta Griz1]

Football is the in-vogue sport now in high school in the state of Montana. And, that sports is getting the best athletes. In the 1970s, basketball was the hot sport in high school. Things change.

 

[Alaska Griz]

Football is the in-vogue sport now in high school in the state of Montana. And, that sports is getting the best athletes. In the 1970s, basketball was the hot sport in high school. Things change.

As far as i know it's been for since the early 90's.

 

[temp]

yo, temp, this is a very interesting post.

in football, montana players have absolutely excelled, consistently, for years. what have we had, five, six, seven montana kids play in the n.f.l. the past five years, not to mention a pipeline that has fed a program that has been consistently great for 25 years.

ditto women's basketball. i personally wish selvig would recruit more african-americans, but you can't deny he's built a consistently solid program over many years largely on the strength of his montana recruits--not to mention the legion of montana players that have starred out of state.

so what's up with men's basketball? how is it that a program that has been so good the past decade has done it without any significant contributions from montana kids? are the montana kids just not that good? or, unlike football, that we don't get the best? or that we simply don't recruit them.

so that's the question, why montana players have contributed so much to our football and women's basketball teams, and so little to men's basketball. go figure.

Yo citay, sorry it has taken so long to respond, but here are my thoughts...

We tend to gauge the in-state talent based purely on the number of D1 scholarships offered/received. This is doing the boys basketball players of this state a huge disservice.

Our two D1 schools have literally 100 more scholarships to hand out for football and they can break them into partials so there is actually more than that. To this day, the best and most efficient way for the two football teams to find talent is to host their own camps in the summer and to look in their own backyard in the fall.

On the women's side there is a combined 4 more scholarships to hand out and like football the best way for them to find talent is to look at their own camp and look in their own backyard during the season.

Men's basketball has the fewest scholarships and by far the most efficient and cost effective way for them to recruit is in the summer at AAU tournaments. The coaches can spend one week in Vegas and see hundreds if not thousands of players all at once. It is easy to kinda slot kids that you can get and you get time to evaluate and talk to them face to face then. AAU has become everything in men's basketball recruiting, especially in a state such as ours with a small population spread all over a huge chunk of land.

Given the expanse of the state it would be nearly impossible to gather up the top 7,8 or 9 kids in any given year and send them off to the top tournaments all over the country. Because of this we have never had a real AAU presence so that means our kids are not getting the same exposure as the potential D1 kids are getting from other regions. Without that exposure they are not going to get the attention of any college coaches, even the two from in-state. No exposure, then means no offers, which unfortunately has become in many eyes to mean no talent.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that the perceived decline of our talent has just so happened to take place at the exact time as the rise of AAU. Nor doesn't make sense that the few kids that do get offers just so happen to be the few kids that have the resources to get out of state and play AAU in the summers. It seems like folks who are gauging our talent based only on the number of scholies would see those trends as merely coincidence where I am clearly seeing causation.

All but a few of the years on this planet have been spent residing in Montana. I just don't see a decline in talent level. What I do see is a clear decline in opportunity.

 

[mtgrizrule]

yo, temp, this is a very interesting post.

in football, montana players have absolutely excelled, consistently, for years. what have we had, five, six, seven montana kids play in the n.f.l. the past five years, not to mention a pipeline that has fed a program that has been consistently great for 25 years.

ditto women's basketball. i personally wish selvig would recruit more african-americans, but you can't deny he's built a consistently solid program over many years largely on the strength of his montana recruits--not to mention the legion of montana players that have starred out of state.

so what's up with men's basketball? how is it that a program that has been so good the past decade has done it without any significant contributions from montana kids? are the montana kids just not that good? or, unlike football, that we don't get the best? or that we simply don't recruit them.

so that's the question, why montana players have contributed so much to our football and women's basketball teams, and so little to men's basketball. go figure.

Yo citay, sorry it has taken so long to respond, but here are my thoughts...

We tend to gauge the in-state talent based purely on the number of D1 scholarships offered/received. This is doing the boys basketball players of this state a huge disservice.

Our two D1 schools have literally 100 more scholarships to hand out for football and they can break them into partials so there is actually more than that. To this day, the best and most efficient way for the two football teams to find talent is to host their own camps in the summer and to look in their own backyard in the fall.

On the women's side there is a combined 4 more scholarships to hand out and like football the best way for them to find talent is to look at their own camp and look in their own backyard during the season.

Men's basketball has the fewest scholarships and by far the most efficient and cost effective way for them to recruit is in the summer at AAU tournaments. The coaches can spend one week in Vegas and see hundreds if not thousands of players all at once. It is easy to kinda slot kids that you can get and you get time to evaluate and talk to them face to face then. AAU has become everything in men's basketball recruiting, especially in a state such as ours with a small population spread all over a huge chunk of land.

Given the expanse of the state it would be nearly impossible to gather up the top 7,8 or 9 kids in any given year and send them off to the top tournaments all over the country. Because of this we have never had a real AAU presence so that means our kids are not getting the same exposure as the potential D1 kids are getting from other regions. Without that exposure they are not going to get the attention of any college coaches, even the two from in-state. No exposure, then means no offers, which unfortunately has become in many eyes to mean no talent.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that the perceived decline of our talent has just so happened to take place at the exact time as the rise of AAU. Nor doesn't make sense that the few kids that do get offers just so happen to be the few kids that have the resources to get out of state and play AAU in the summers. It seems like folks who are gauging our talent based only on the number of scholies would see those trends as merely coincidence where I am clearly seeing causation.

All but a few of the years on this planet have been spent residing in Montana. I just don't see a decline in talent level. What I do see is a clear decline in opportunity.

Well put, Temp. you feel the same as I do. Also the presence of international recruits is impacting all of College Basketball. Hate to say it, but many Euro players are much better fundamentally than many US players. I am not a big fan of Kobe Bryant, but what he said about many young US players was 100% on point. Kobe credits his advanced skills to how the fundamentals were emphasized to him as a youth learning the game in Europe when his father was playing overseas. Too many American players are too much into the highlight reel dunks, passes, blocks etc, then have to add fundamentals later. The International players, especially from Europe and Australia let their fundamentals do the talking, and athleticism is a bonus.

Foreign amateurs caught American amateurs about 20 years ago. That is why the NBA players now represent the country (which I don't agree with). It is a matter of time when a foreign country will give the NBA all stars a run for the Gold. The GRIZ are now part of the international player pipeline with players from Germany, Australia, and soon to be Poland.

I really do hope Montana player will again be more abundant in Div 1 basketball, but living in a football state reduces the number by a big margin, compared to the 70's through the 90's.

 

[mtgrizrule]

yo, temp, this is a very interesting post.

in football, montana players have absolutely excelled, consistently, for years. what have we had, five, six, seven montana kids play in the n.f.l. the past five years, not to mention a pipeline that has fed a program that has been consistently great for 25 years.

ditto women's basketball. i personally wish selvig would recruit more african-americans, but you can't deny he's built a consistently solid program over many years largely on the strength of his montana recruits--not to mention the legion of montana players that have starred out of state.

so what's up with men's basketball? how is it that a program that has been so good the past decade has done it without any significant contributions from montana kids? are the montana kids just not that good? or, unlike football, that we don't get the best? or that we simply don't recruit them.

so that's the question, why montana players have contributed so much to our football and women's basketball teams, and so little to men's basketball. go figure.

Yo citay, sorry it has taken so long to respond, but here are my thoughts...

We tend to gauge the in-state talent based purely on the number of D1 scholarships offered/received. This is doing the boys basketball players of this state a huge disservice.

Our two D1 schools have literally 100 more scholarships to hand out for football and they can break them into partials so there is actually more than that. To this day, the best and most efficient way for the two football teams to find talent is to host their own camps in the summer and to look in their own backyard in the fall.

On the women's side there is a combined 4 more scholarships to hand out and like football the best way for them to find talent is to look at their own camp and look in their own backyard during the season.

Men's basketball has the fewest scholarships and by far the most efficient and cost effective way for them to recruit is in the summer at AAU tournaments. The coaches can spend one week in Vegas and see hundreds if not thousands of players all at once. It is easy to kinda slot kids that you can get and you get time to evaluate and talk to them face to face then. AAU has become everything in men's basketball recruiting, especially in a state such as ours with a small population spread all over a huge chunk of land.

Given the expanse of the state it would be nearly impossible to gather up the top 7,8 or 9 kids in any given year and send them off to the top tournaments all over the country. Because of this we have never had a real AAU presence so that means our kids are not getting the same exposure as the potential D1 kids are getting from other regions. Without that exposure they are not going to get the attention of any college coaches, even the two from in-state. No exposure, then means no offers, which unfortunately has become in many eyes to mean no talent.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that the perceived decline of our talent has just so happened to take place at the exact time as the rise of AAU. Nor doesn't make sense that the few kids that do get offers just so happen to be the few kids that have the resources to get out of state and play AAU in the summers. It seems like folks who are gauging our talent based only on the number of scholies would see those trends as merely coincidence where I am clearly seeing causation.

All but a few of the years on this planet have been spent residing in Montana. I just don't see a decline in talent level. What I do see is a clear decline in opportunity.

Well put, Temp. you feel the same as I do. Also the presence of international recruits is impacting all of College Basketball. Hate to say it, but many Euro players are much better fundamentally than many US players. I am not a big fan of Kobe Bryant, but what he said about many young US players was 100% on point. Kobe credits his advanced skills to how the fundamentals were emphasized to him as a youth learning the game in Europe when his father was playing overseas. Too many American players are too much into the highlight reel dunks, passes, blocks etc, then have to add fundamentals later. The International players, especially from Europe and Australia let their fundamentals do the talking, and athleticism is a bonus.

Foreign amateurs caught American amateurs about 20 years ago. That is why the NBA players now represent the country (which I don't agree with). It is a matter of time when a foreign country will give the NBA all stars a run for the Gold. The GRIZ are now part of the international player pipeline with players from Germany, Australia, and soon to be Poland.

I really do hope Montana players will be more abundant in Div 1 basketball, but living in a football state reduces the number by a big margin, compared to the 70's through the 90's.

 

[BelierPeaux]

yo, temp, this is a very interesting post.

in football, montana players have absolutely excelled, consistently, for years. what have we had, five, six, seven montana kids play in the n.f.l. the past five years, not to mention a pipeline that has fed a program that has been consistently great for 25 years.

ditto women's basketball. i personally wish selvig would recruit more african-americans, but you can't deny he's built a consistently solid program over many years largely on the strength of his montana recruits--not to mention the legion of montana players that have starred out of state.

so what's up with men's basketball? how is it that a program that has been so good the past decade has done it without any significant contributions from montana kids? are the montana kids just not that good? or, unlike football, that we don't get the best? or that we simply don't recruit them.

so that's the question, why montana players have contributed so much to our football and women's basketball teams, and so little to men's basketball. go figure.

Yo citay, sorry it has taken so long to respond, but here are my thoughts...

We tend to gauge the in-state talent based purely on the number of D1 scholarships offered/received. This is doing the boys basketball players of this state a huge disservice.

Our two D1 schools have literally 100 more scholarships to hand out for football and they can break them into partials so there is actually more than that. To this day, the best and most efficient way for the two football teams to find talent is to host their own camps in the summer and to look in their own backyard in the fall.

On the women's side there is a combined 4 more scholarships to hand out and like football the best way for them to find talent is to look at their own camp and look in their own backyard during the season.

Men's basketball has the fewest scholarships and by far the most efficient and cost effective way for them to recruit is in the summer at AAU tournaments. The coaches can spend one week in Vegas and see hundreds if not thousands of players all at once. It is easy to kinda slot kids that you can get and you get time to evaluate and talk to them face to face then. AAU has become everything in men's basketball recruiting, especially in a state such as ours with a small population spread all over a huge chunk of land.

Given the expanse of the state it would be nearly impossible to gather up the top 7,8 or 9 kids in any given year and send them off to the top tournaments all over the country. Because of this we have never had a real AAU presence so that means our kids are not getting the same exposure as the potential D1 kids are getting from other regions. Without that exposure they are not going to get the attention of any college coaches, even the two from in-state. No exposure, then means no offers, which unfortunately has become in many eyes to mean no talent.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that the perceived decline of our talent has just so happened to take place at the exact time as the rise of AAU. Nor doesn't make sense that the few kids that do get offers just so happen to be the few kids that have the resources to get out of state and play AAU in the summers. It seems like folks who are gauging our talent based only on the number of scholies would see those trends as merely coincidence where I am clearly seeing causation.

All but a few of the years on this planet have been spent residing in Montana. I just don't see a decline in talent level. What I do see is a clear decline in opportunity.

Well put, Temp. you feel the same as I do. Also the presence of international recruits is impacting all of College Basketball. Hate to say it, but many Euro players are much better fundamentally than many US players. I am not a big fan of Kobe Bryant, but what he said about many young US players was 100% on point. Kobe credits his advanced skills to how the fundamentals were emphasized to him as a youth learning the game in Europe when his father was playing overseas. Too many American players are too much into the highlight reel dunks, passes, blocks etc, then have to add fundamentals later. The International players, especially from Europe and Australia let their fundamentals do the talking, and athleticism is a bonus.

Foreign amateurs caught American amateurs about 20 years ago. That is why the NBA players now represent the country (which I don't agree with). It is a matter of time when a foreign country will give the NBA all stars a run for the Gold. The GRIZ are now part of the international player pipeline with players from Germany, Australia, and soon to be Poland.

I really do hope Montana player will again be more abundant in Div 1 basketball, but living in a football state reduces the number by a big margin, compared to the 70's through the 90's.

Like when Argentina did in 2004? :thumb: